99% i have sorted out in my setup past 2 weeks. I am now looking for the last 1% improvement in my setup and have started working on that from today
Objectivity vs Subjectivity
- Thread starter Passive_audio_enthusiast
- Start date
Oh, didn't know that an audition is impossible for you, guess i m spoilt living in a big city where auditions are easy.
2 pegs is the best upgrade to any music system, when i m down a few pegs, my Bose sound system sounds heavenThey sound even more fantastic and nostalgic after 2 pegs of fine whiskey ....when I go down roads of pink Floyd, CCR, ZZ top, led Zeppelin, and yes even gazals
But seriously Sir, since you started this thread, what would be your own personal learnings, which others could learn from?
Well said, I Couldn't have put it any Better.
Once you hear that Magic with your own ears, there's no going back. As Music production is an Art, desirable music reproduction in your setup is one too. Everyone's expectations and experiences differ; as long as you enjoy the journey and not be judgmental about others choices all is well.
Having said that, I have heard hundreds of systems in last decade ; most of the magical sounding systems(irrespective of the budget) I've listened, are owned or curated by the ones with more discerning ears . That's the approach which has given me the best bang for the buck. Your own Realization of which approach suits you best matters a lot.
Also Once you realize that, You're here to improve your own system & its music reproduction capabilities and NOT to improve others system or any point to prove to anyone, you'll be less judgmental about others approaches and reach a state of imperturbability. (There are lots of FMs who haven't replied and have reached this state). Because, Science can be proved or disproved but a subjective experience ? can only be experienced
.+1 to this. In my setup any type of fancy room treatment compltely screws my listening experience. They have always added to my problems than solving them. Room treatment compress my midrange and highs to much for my liking. Also any type of power conditioners and isolation transformer etc ruins my setup. Minimalist approach have always worked for my setup.
perfectly summarized and its this balance between the two is where differences between equipment start coming up
Very well said.
I have 1 more question - for education sake and not to rile anyone up - and not to start another random thread.
If one buys a well measuring speaker - then uses DSP and equalisers etc, to make them sound neutral in the room, you are technically changing the original measurement/SQ/parameters of the speaker right? So isn't the purpose of buying the speaker that measured great out of factory defeated?
Also - you can buy a speaker that sounds good to your ears or has generally favourable reviews by forum members and not just published reviewers and then use DSP etc to make it sound good in your room. Isn't it the same thing then?
Or am I missing something?
PS: though I can't stop anyone from replying - I can humbly request for reasonable answers.
If one buys a well measuring speaker - then uses DSP and equalisers etc, to make them sound neutral in the room, you are technically changing the original measurement/SQ/parameters of the speaker right? So isn't the purpose of buying the speaker that measured great out of factory defeated?
Also - you can buy a speaker that sounds good to your ears or has generally favourable reviews by forum members and not just published reviewers and then use DSP etc to make it sound good in your room. Isn't it the same thing then?
Or am I missing something?
PS: though I can't stop anyone from replying - I can humbly request for reasonable answers.
Measurements are not just about room response. there is also areas like distortion /timing etc which no EQ can correct in fact may make it worse
Most good brands should have these at the right level as a Hygene factor but you never know whats been compromised for the budget
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
That well measuring speaker will in all likelihood not measure the same in your room. You can extrapolate from there.
Hi Sir, great Q!
From my limited understanding, a well-measuring speaker is a great starting point... With such an instrument in place, you know whatever correction you layer upon such a speaker, we should be at peace that we are correcting for the room and not for the speaker. I think that is a great starting point...
For ex, if you know your speaker measures well in mid frequencies, then there will be no issues taming the highs in your room.
Bass management is a different beast all together.
Speakers that don't measure well to be wary of, IMHO, are the ones that have some bad HF graphs in an ideal environment. I may be wrong, but I will stay away from such speakers.
Where we heard them or where those FMs heard them matters a lot...
Like others have said before, even the most perfect auditioning space, for those who are lucky to get one, are nothing when compared to our own rooms. Indian retailers need to really introduce home auditions, and I hope that day will come sooner than later...
Having said that, correcting for a room with a pair of flattish speakers will always be better than correcting for both the speaker and the room.
It was an idea I have always had in my head, and answers in another thread support this...
In terms of importance for enjoyment, today, I would rate them thus for my own self/room/experience:
Ear > Room > speaker > treatments > DSP.
Also, I think it is almost always possible to make a great measuring speaker sound better in a bad room than making a poorly designed speaker sound good in the same room....
Passive_audio_enthusiast
Well-Known Member
A well measuring speaker doesn’t have to be something that is having a flat FR out of the box. Instead if it has good direcvity and very low distortion, it’s possible to eq it to flat at a listening spot.
I didn’t start this thread, this was a comment on another thread. One of the mods here thought it would be a good idea not to pollute the original thread.
But seriously Sir, since you started this thread, what would be your own personal learnings, which others could learn from?
I am wondering about the fact that I have two critical components in my audio chain (that I really like) that measured not so good but received good reviews from several “subjective” reviewers.
1. The Croft Line integrated amplifier which was measured by John Atkinson of Stereophile and found to be lacking.
www.stereophile.com
Three other reviewers from Stereophile wrote glowing reviews of this amplifier after extended listening.
www.stereophile.com
www.stereophile.com
A discussion thread on the above conondrum
2. Lindemann Limetree network (streamer and DAC) measured poorly and not recommended by Amir of Audioscience Review. https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/lindemann-limetree-review-streamer.28210/
This has several detailed reviews by other reviewers praising its performance subjectively.
I compared this DAC in the same audio chain, same room with a few other DACs and found it better. (Mytek Liberty, PS Audio Directstream Jr, Bluesound Node 2i)
My question is… well, you know what the questions are.
1. The Croft Line integrated amplifier which was measured by John Atkinson of Stereophile and found to be lacking.
Croft Acoustics Phono Integrated integrated amplifier Measurements
Sidebar 3: Measurements
Croft Acoustics Phono Integrated integrated amplifier
The name sounds perfect. It fits neatly next to those of Messrs. Leak, Sugden, Walker, Grant, Lumley, and others of Britain's most rightly revered amplifier builders. In fact, when their distributor called and asked if I'd like to review the latest amplifier from Croft Acoustics, I accepted...
Croft Acoustics Phono Integrated integrated amplifier Sam Tellig May 2014
Sam Tellig wrote about the Croft Phono in May 2014 (Vol.37 No.5): Art Dudley was the first at Stereophile to discover this little gem, which he reviewed in the October 2013 issue. I was intrigued because: a) Artie loves it, and b) John Atkinson does not. After measuring it, JA snorted: "To me...
2. Lindemann Limetree network (streamer and DAC) measured poorly and not recommended by Amir of Audioscience Review. https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/lindemann-limetree-review-streamer.28210/
This has several detailed reviews by other reviewers praising its performance subjectively.
I compared this DAC in the same audio chain, same room with a few other DACs and found it better. (Mytek Liberty, PS Audio Directstream Jr, Bluesound Node 2i)
My question is… well, you know what the questions are.
An excerpt from this discussion:
Reflecting back on Stereophile’s Croft Integrated review – Audioflair
In all three cases of actually being listened to, (by Stereophile reviewers) the amplifier (Croft) is found to be excellent and above reproach. It appears to compare favorably to much much more expensive equipment. These are not just good reviews, they read as endorsements to me (this is no surprise to me). I also take on board the reviews comment extensively on music and how it feels, which I like.
Yet the immutable fact is the amplifier measured poorly. Is it possible the measurements are wrong? Is it possible the measurements don't matter? Is it possible the arbiter of sound quality isn't being measured here? Is it possible the listeners are all wrong? Is it possible the reviewers have all succumbed to expectation bias? Is it possible the subjective review process is hopelessly flawed? Is it possible this is all rather amusing?
Yes.
I really don't think this can prove anything, one way or the other. As has often been said, we don't listen to test tones. I do wonder though, if the two sides to this coin can harmoniously coexist? Can the 'subjectivist' audiophile cope with beloved equipment being legitimately criticised, and say 'I see your point, it is not perfect yet I prefer it'? Or will he resort to saying measurements are useless? Can the 'objectivist' audiophile cope with everyone loving a flawed component, even allow himself to do the same, all the while knowing there is 'better' equipment out there that sounds 'worse'?”
Reflecting back on Stereophile’s Croft Integrated review – Audioflair
In all three cases of actually being listened to, (by Stereophile reviewers) the amplifier (Croft) is found to be excellent and above reproach. It appears to compare favorably to much much more expensive equipment. These are not just good reviews, they read as endorsements to me (this is no surprise to me). I also take on board the reviews comment extensively on music and how it feels, which I like.
Yet the immutable fact is the amplifier measured poorly. Is it possible the measurements are wrong? Is it possible the measurements don't matter? Is it possible the arbiter of sound quality isn't being measured here? Is it possible the listeners are all wrong? Is it possible the reviewers have all succumbed to expectation bias? Is it possible the subjective review process is hopelessly flawed? Is it possible this is all rather amusing?
Yes.
I really don't think this can prove anything, one way or the other. As has often been said, we don't listen to test tones. I do wonder though, if the two sides to this coin can harmoniously coexist? Can the 'subjectivist' audiophile cope with beloved equipment being legitimately criticised, and say 'I see your point, it is not perfect yet I prefer it'? Or will he resort to saying measurements are useless? Can the 'objectivist' audiophile cope with everyone loving a flawed component, even allow himself to do the same, all the while knowing there is 'better' equipment out there that sounds 'worse'?”
Enkay78
Well-Known Member
Most of the times, I am finding that such discussions are in a limbic loop.
And we tend to mix some fundamentals interchangeably.
Personally for me (at the risk of sounding ad homineum/ad nauseum)
We can never know in absolute what we hear at each individual ears and percieve the sound. We can only compare with objective measurements of functional MRI scans, brain stem evoked potentials/electrical signals/auditory signals study of auditory complex of brain. However these measurement will still elude how we feel/perceive these sounds. Hence comes the study and researches of statistical studies of cohorts of listener. And much like any science, ‘ control trials ‘ (not exactly like clinical trials) has been done ……and things like harman curve has come about, and flat FR as the targetable response.
The variety of perspectives comes along because of our individual taste, preference, and perception.The problem with subjective assessment is that it is not reproducible - what a ‘expert golden ear’ hears and described subjective terms cannot be reliably assessed as being heard by other audiophile ears/consumer ears. When he says warmth - what degree of it is heard by untrained ears? How will that untrained ear know it? How will the untrained ear authenticate what the expert hears? Taken this way the expert assessment is nothing more than a heresay.
That’s how the rabbit hole…..it can be as deep as can be. Mix to this the manufacturers/dealers/consumers interest.
For us consumers, ti will be always healthy for us to ask and bank our decisions on measurements. It makes an onus on manufacturers to justify their claims. It will expose them if they lie. It will make them reputable as it can mean a transparency of their products.
And we tend to mix some fundamentals interchangeably.
Personally for me (at the risk of sounding ad homineum/ad nauseum)
- Well measured means the designer and manufacturers have taken care to make the product. That’s an indication to me that they care for the science. And how their product sound fundamentally be made banking on the firm foundation of audio science (which obviously is and has been the technological evolution)
- Well measured means I have a reference (say an anechoic chamber) against which I can compare how the product will respond in my room. And if we are more educated towards measurements like spinorama, I can even estimate the room response/speaker resonance/distortions/spl without even auditioning the product (for eg for speakers)
- Well measured system chain means, I can reliably lower distortions starting from source to transducers. (Atleast in context of audio science of audio reproduction).
- Well measured may not mean audible difference.But it may make electronical difference in the electronics involved. Obviously audio research is an WIP, much like any science subject. However advances and updates are the forte from the ongoing researches. There are significant audio research which have laid the foundation of fundamentals of measurements in audio science. There are significant amount of researches which have highlighted the weakness of ‘subjective’ assessment’ and how psychoacoustics can be significant bias as a parameter. Our cochlea is a fine engineered organ, but our brain can be a messy audio processor. And like any living things, our cochlea has a time related functional performance. Whereas machine measurements has the potential of being exemplary unbiased.And much like any science, the methodology of measurements are still being researched. So in future newer and better measurements will come about.
- The audio industry has an accepted and consensus on standards of objective measurements. And this has come about without merits.
We can never know in absolute what we hear at each individual ears and percieve the sound. We can only compare with objective measurements of functional MRI scans, brain stem evoked potentials/electrical signals/auditory signals study of auditory complex of brain. However these measurement will still elude how we feel/perceive these sounds. Hence comes the study and researches of statistical studies of cohorts of listener. And much like any science, ‘ control trials ‘ (not exactly like clinical trials) has been done ……and things like harman curve has come about, and flat FR as the targetable response.
The variety of perspectives comes along because of our individual taste, preference, and perception.The problem with subjective assessment is that it is not reproducible - what a ‘expert golden ear’ hears and described subjective terms cannot be reliably assessed as being heard by other audiophile ears/consumer ears. When he says warmth - what degree of it is heard by untrained ears? How will that untrained ear know it? How will the untrained ear authenticate what the expert hears? Taken this way the expert assessment is nothing more than a heresay.
That’s how the rabbit hole…..it can be as deep as can be. Mix to this the manufacturers/dealers/consumers interest.
For us consumers, ti will be always healthy for us to ask and bank our decisions on measurements. It makes an onus on manufacturers to justify their claims. It will expose them if they lie. It will make them reputable as it can mean a transparency of their products.
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Thank you for the explanation.
I do appreciate your highlighting the challenges of measuring what happens in the auditory pathways and the brain when we hear sounds and music.
Are you saying that going by the measurements I should not have bought these two components?
I have owned better measuring amps and DACs, but while they reproduced audio well, I did not like them as much as I like the imperfectly measuring components that I have now. I am curious to understand why.
Is it possible that the audio measurement experts are missing something that they don’t have the means to define and measure?
Is it possible in some cases that we use measurements to avoid components that measure well?
I really don’t know the answer to these questions; it’s intriguing.
I remind and comfort myself that I am listening to music, not measurements.
This might be of interest too. (Don’t shoot the Dan)
Dan D'Agostino Master Audio Systems Progression M550 monoblock power amplifier
We audiophiles so frequently get caught up in the pursuit of perfection that some have attempted to rebrand high-end audio as "perfectionist audio." But is it even possible for a single piece of audio gear, let alone an entire audio system, to attain perfection when there's no common agreement...
That something measures well is no guarantee of a wonderful subjective performance, but it may be a good indicator. That something measures poorly may be a indicator that it will sound bad but not always.
There are some elements/aspects of sound quality that we don't know how to measure yet, but that does not mean we should abandon measurements. It means we should improve them until they can define those differences and are good enough to more accurately describe a complex phenomenon. This is the way science progresses.
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Enkay78
Well-Known Member
No, I am not saying you did a mistake or you should not buy.
You don't like the good measuring (I hope it is relevant and appropriate measurements) because of your taste and your preference of audio.
It's a problem when you state extrapolating that what you like will be liked by others. In a sense there is no way to know whether others will hear like you and have similar taste like you.
That's the whole cacophonia.
Even though some like coloration and distortions in their music, it cannot be a generalisation.....nor a healthy standard for audio reproduction.
The converse is also true?
Many like the sound of tube amps and vinyl but they don’t measure well? Yes, the ‘colour’ that they add to the sound is enjoyable I’m sure.
Let us acknowledge coloured sound and accurate Hi-Fi sound both have their fans. When we state our preferences we are stating our priorities- subjective sound preference or the idea of listening to equipment that measures well (both of which of course are absolutely fine).
Enkay78
Well-Known Member
How many?
The audio reproduction have evolved much that we can have SOTA reproduction not possibles decades ago.
This has happened due to audio technology , R&D.
Audiophilia is a very small segment of the whole industry. My comments are taking into consideration audio industry as a whole not only of ‘hi fidelity ’ segment.
Using my AKG731 I find very difficult to hear any difference between the audio reproduction of my iPad/Oneplus Pro/Topping D90se+A90/Sabaj D5. listening to same songs on Apple Music lossless. (I am not an audiophile.)
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