Objectivity vs Subjectivity

I say if this forum has to be lively- I say let’s have strong opinions. That’s how a spirited discourse can happen. But yes let’s encourage the merit of arguments……without getting personal. We all are learning from each other. And that’s how humans evolve. I even say let’s have battle of merits……excruciating debunking of myths ….tons of evidential evidence and merit.


And off course remember at the end that our ‘subjective’ love of music and ht has brought together as a collective. The debate do seems much better if you have taken down a peg or two of fine whiskey. ;)
 
Most respected sir @Passive_audio_enthusiast
Only you can put an end to this, with all due respect to everyone, including mods.
Kindly call it a day. Please. Please. Please.
Please, kindly request you to request mods to close thread.
Regards
Hi K-pad, hope all is well with you?

Just ignore this thread, fanboys will be fanboys & they will never come to a solution :)

Instead they will call each one names like Egoistic, Show offs or foxes who find grapes sour etc.

You can even ignore individual members easily, pm me if you wan't some tips.

Cheers.
 
My pick KEF R11;
Why :
Almost flat frequency. - let’s hear the recording without adding or removing much

Excellent directivity - directivity is mostly forward so, less affected from sidewalls like traditional speakers. Placement isn’t going to be a big issue in the room in terms of the sidewall reflection.

Excellent low frequency extension-can work without a sub

Low distortion- now this is where it gets really interesting. If you look at this graph below. This is how we calculate distortion in percentage

We can hear distotion in a different way for different frequencies. But anything with these numbers are close to inaudible. What does that mean, I can push up the loudness levels of several bands here without distortion reaching audble levels. So this speaker can be eqed to literally any other speaker and still will not add distortion doing so.
View attachment 66185
The soundstage of this speaker is limited to the directivity to the front. So if you remove the shadow flare may be it would work sideways(I won’t do it)

This also means if I play a 40 hz tone, it vibrates equivalent to its time domain equivalent in terms of strokes and low distotion suggests there is no “overhang or swinging” by the drivers meaning in audiophile terms- excellent timing.

4. Coaxial with no problems exhibited by traditional coaxial. It’s very hard to get a coaxial right. Problem is you have a midrange that would vibrate which is the wave guide for the tweeter.

Kef managed to fix this problem with the tangerine waveguide and the ribs on the cone to direct it without any flaws.

Also coaxial means the best possible coherence between mid and the tweeter for accurate soundstage representation. Cymbals won’t sound above or below the vocals if recording doesn’t have it.

To me, there is nothing better than this you can buy under 5 lakhs may be even in 10 lakhs.

The stock sound has some flaws (minor) but with little bit eq it’s tunable to perfection.

Low impedance change with frequency - means it has lower amount of sound change with amp impedance change

High sensitivity- low number of parts in crossover (it’s laughable!) sensibility is high due to less power wastage.

Driver engineering has taken huge steps further hear as I won’t be surprised to see even less parts in the next gen.
I don't need any convincing insofar as KEFs are concerned. Objectively or subjectively, they reign supreme to my ears and that's all the persuasion i require! :D
 
Reviving this thread, I don't know how many people watch Thomas and Stereo, and like his views or not. But this is a good way of saying measurements don't mean everything, I remember once he said he is building a amplifier and the measurements were awesome and perfect but when he and his friends heard and listend to it, the amplifier sounded crap.
Appreciated how he is highlighted this.

Screenshot_20220127-165048_YouTube.jpg
 
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Not trying to revive this thread but couldnt help sharing here Kimmosto's opinion (because he is an internationally respected speaker designer who been designing/helping companies to design great speakers for the last 30+ years, since before all this hype about directivity came along) about what Amir from ASR calls as "errors" in directivity index. Please also dont consider this post as some sort of allegation about what Amir is doing. It is just a reminder to put things in the right perspective and give things only the attention they deserve and not more.


Pasting Kimmosto's comment here from above:
"Also level of directivity index has big role in this. Large speakers with DI~5 dB at LF and rising towards HF don't need very linear DI spectrum. Small conventional speakers can't move you "there" without listening at near field so they're better try to emulate features of original sound sources; to move instruments and vocalist into your room. This requires some assumptions/statistics about recordings; how close/far mics typically are etc. Original sound sources such as human head, cello or piano don't have linear DI spectrum so reproduction in conventional room with speakers having very linear or too steep diving DI at mid-range sound retracted/distant, less natural and presence (=dead). Respectively, speakers with more constant/flat DI at mid up to ca. 1 kHz and then smooth steepen towards HF sound more alive, natural and present.
Directivity is not the only feature having effect on naturalness. Timing down to bass range and dynamics should be good too.
I guess experience and controlling this kind of details is not very common. Generic studies focusing to mediocre consumer products with random samples can't detect all nuances in a controlled way. It would be sad if such basic science develops into a religion on any forum"
 
Reviving this thread, I don't know how many people watch Thomas and Stereo, and like his views or not. But this is a good way of saying measurements don't mean everything, I remember once he said he is building a amplifier and the measurements were awesome and perfect but when he and his friends heard and listend to it, the amplifier sounded crap.
Appreciated how he is highlighted this.

View attachment 66678
apparently his amp was not measured by any standard measurements or by anyone other than him. He just said he made it, never gave any proof.
 
Subjective vs Objective vs SOB-jective

“Great audio is achieved by a blend of objective expertise and subjective wisdom”

Do you believe in this?
I believe in it because of the duality of sound.

Duality 1
Stimulus vs sensation
Sound is a wave motion in an elastic or air media which acts as a stimulus, stimulating the particles in the media. (Objective)
Sound also leads to excitation of human hearing mechanisms leading to how we perceive sound. It is a sensation. (subjective)
------------
Duality 2
Acoustics vs psychoacoustics.
Acoustics is the study of how sound behaves physically. (Objective)
Psychoacoustics is the study of how sound is perceived by humans. (Subjective)
------------
Duality 3
Frequency vs pitch
Frequency is objective - defined as the number of waveforms per second.

Pitch is subjective- it is the frequency perceived by the human ear for same frequencies played at different volume levels.
Harver Fletcher experiment to demonstrate frequency-pitch interaction.
At increased SPL the test frequencies 168 hz and 318 hz were perceived as 150 hz and 300 hz.
------------
Duality 4
Spectrum vs Timbre
Spectrum is the fundamental frequency + a series of its harmonics of various amplitudes and phases.
Timbre is the perceived spectrum of sound which is complicated by frequency-pitch interaction.
------------

“ The study of audio and acoustics involves both Science and Art.”
“Remember to begin with science, and forget not to end with trained ears being the ultimate judge.”


I am a SOBjectivist. What are you? ;)

Being on one side is like running with one leg.
 
Apologies for rant in advance, and jumping in a raging thread. Will try to keep it short, I promise. Also, this train of thoughts will be as *incoherent as always ;)

Objectivity is rational. Subjectivity isn't, or is it so? Are we in this, for science or experience?

Here's one chart of fundamental frequencies of various instruments (and notes) . Do they sound same at same note? Nope. What follows post the note, makes the instrument distinct! Otherwise one instrument would have been enough.
"Tech Stuff - Frequency Ranges" https://www.zytrax.com/tech/audio/audio.html

Many on the forum have listened to bulbul. Does "Banjo" on synthesiser sound the same?

I also recall the debates around how MP3s, wavs, ogg vorbis etc. And of course "golden ears". Now these debates have moved further to MQAs, FLAC, DSD etc. I know, I'm mixing containers to formats.

But, does the science approve the "output" aka experience or is it truthful to reproduction? Don't even consider the 15" stereo (Capitol records!?). As, many pointed out: What's the service/use of "mono tone" measurements bringing out?


Moreover: The scientific community has limitations of resources and "standards". But, YOU on other hand, don't! If you love it, and can afford... Be the fool to embrace it. Nobody else will.


Closing the rant with this.
"Reconsidering Julian Hirsch | Sound & Vision" https://www.soundandvision.com/content/reconsidering-julian-hirsch

Thanks for patience!
 
Reviving a this again,

undertaker-wake-up.gif

A controversial topic discussed by some folks, go through it if one has 30mins to spare. A good conversation between to chaps.

 
If one were to just follow ASR's recommendations, one can just buy audio gear online without listening to it. Just like T-Shirts. And then just believe they sound good because ASR said so.
And many buy after ogling/caressing the gear physically and after listening in the dealers treated room and after going wow saying: <InsertArtisteOfChoice> sounded as if he/she was on my lap!
Then they hook up what they bought in their room and it sounds like ca ca, but they still have to pretend it sounds good, all the while kicking themselves within.

True story! :p
 
If one were to just follow ASR's recommendations, one can just buy audio gear online without listening to it. Just like T-Shirts. And then just believe they sound good because ASR said so.
Depends on what you are expecting out of a tshirt. If it’s nailing the fit , then measure your torso, compare it with the dimensions of the tshirt your looking online and you know if it fits your body even without trying it out. Most companies have various useful dimensions of product.

Buy few tshirts with slightly different dimensions and try them which one is good on you. One you find the sweet spot, buy other tshirts with similar dimensions. You may not be disappointed by the fit.


Hear few speakers with different measurements and find the correlation between measurement and the real world sound and find out what combination of measurements favors your taste.

Next time when you are looking for a new one you can ignore the worst sounding ones from the measurements.
 
And many buy after ogling/caressing the gear physically and after listening in the dealers treated room and after going wow saying: <InsertArtisteOfChoice> sounded as if he/she was on my lap!
Then they hook up what they bought in their room and it sounds like ca ca, but they still have to pretend it sounds good, all the while kicking themselves within.

True story! :p
Don’t forget the WAF and peer pressure!

So, after 18 pages of this discussion I have learnt that we can’t trust measurements alone, we can’t trust our ears, there is no guarantee that equipment that costs a lot will sound good/better, we can’t trust marketing and hype by reviewers, we can’t trust recommendations from audiophiles who don’t agree amongst themselves, we can’t trust it will sound good based on how it looks, we don’t have the option of home audition before deciding to buy or get refunds,…the WAF (I am not going there)
There surely must be someone to blame for this state of affairs!!!
 
So, after 18 pages of this discussion I have learnt that we can’t trust measurements alone, we can’t trust our ears, there is no guarantee that equipment that costs a lot will sound good/better, we can’t trust marketing and hype by reviewers, we can’t trust recommendations from audiophiles who don’t agree amongst themselves, we can’t trust it will sound good based on how it looks, we don’t have the option of home audition before deciding to buy or get refunds,…the WAF (I am not going there)
There surely must be someone to blame for this state of affairs!!!
Good summary!

We have ourselves to blame. We are human afterall!
 
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
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