Objectivity vs Subjectivity

[Enkay78]

I will go out on a limb here and say this:
Audio reproduction is rooted in science..
Scratch that, audio reproduction is possible because science!

Any and every aspect of audio reproduction can thus be measured precisely by numbers.
It's another story though that personal preferences vary - A perfectly neutral / flat system would not sound pleasing to either the subjectivists or objectivists around here.

So to make the sound pleasing/tune it to their preferences, lets say we had an objectivist and subjectivist who have the same auditory preference:

- The objectivist will (for example) try to take a speaker that measures well and tune the measurable input to suit said preference

- The subjectivist will try to audition a much larger number of devices and test various permutations and combinations till she/he hits the jackpot that maps out to said preference

The end result in both case should be very comparable if not exactly the same.

The former approach will likely end up being less effort intensive (and likely cheaper) - but again, for many, the journey is half the fun!

And both will like similar music and sound, which has been backed by years of audio research.

 

[viveshsahu]

Due to audioscsiencereview’s bad reviews on Hegel, naim, regas and so on the resale value on these stuff has taken a huge hit. And day by day more and more people are switching camps/getting educated about what to look for in audio. So, consider getting something which is decent in measurements and sounds good to your ears at the same time to avoid disappointment in few years. Colored sound would give an immediate satisfaction but once you start noticing that amps filter in everything you hear you would want something different. A transparent amp on the other hand would be boring at first, but once you start noticing the differences in different recording styles of different artists without filtering by the amp, you would be forgetting more About the gear. Over the years, I have used lot of hifi targeted amps like atoll, gold note, holfi, creek and several niche brands. Every time when you hear it for the first weeks you will be flattered, then the excitement dies as that particular coloring is intrusive to the music all the time. It used to be easy to flip them when you don’t like it but now if you put any of them on sale,anyone who looks for a used amp who knows how to “google search” would land in the audiosciencereview’s page would be reluctant to buy them regardless of their positive reviews. Nobody wants a product which is bashed by 100s of random guys on internet.

They say end of the day, trust your ears but I would say, trust your ears only after you do your homework. Otherwise the moment you discover some of the flaws, then there is no way back.

Well said!! Music is not about how detailed it is or how transparent a speaker/amp is. It is about how it sounds to your ears.

Some speakers/amps have their own character. One might like it or not but a natural sounding setup will give you satisfiction on a long run though at first you might not like at all.

 

[Enkay78]

For those who are interested.

https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/15_Mfrs_Publications/Harman_Int%27l/AES-Other_Publications/Trained_vs_Untrained_Listeners.pdf

This study reports one of the largest controlled loud- speaker listening tests conducted to date in terms of the sheer number of listeners involved. It is also unique in that most of the listeners (96%) had no formal training and lit- tle or no prior experience in controlled tests. One of the most significant findings is that the loudspeaker prefer-
ences of these nominally untrained listeners were very similar to those of the panel of trained listeners. The results may finally validate the use of trained listeners on the basis that their preferences can be extrapolated to a larger population of untrained listeners. The notion that the loudspeaker preferences of trained listeners are some- how biased can cannot be used to predict those of review- ers, audio retailers, and the intended (untrained) customer is not supported by scientific data.
The differences between trained and untrained listeners are mostly related to differences in performance. The mean performances of the trained listeners based on loud- speakers FL values were 3 – 27 times higher than any of the other four listener occupations measured in this study. Training and experience in controlled tests lead to signifi- cant gains in performance so that fewer listeners are required to achieve the same statistical power. The com- paratively poorer performance of the students relative to the other three groups of audio professionals suggests that in field job experience can be beneficial to making more reliable judgments of sound quality. This implies that some form of training may be necessary in order to meas- ure statistically significant preferences using more naïve and inexperienced listeners. Fortunately Bech has shown that very little training (four to eight sessions) is required [1].


The study provides strong validation for the current set of acoustic loudspeaker measurements used to design and test loudspeakers in our organization. There are clear visual correlations between measurements and subjective preference ratings, which supports the earlier findings reported by Toole [20], [21]. While interpreting the loud- speaker measurements still takes some skill and experi- ence, the set of frequency-response curves alone could have largely predicted the outcome of these listening tests. The audio product reviewing industry could do a great service to consumers if they adopted a more meaningful set of technical measurements such as the ones shown here. Unfortunately such measurements are difficult and costly to perform, and beyond the reach of most audio reviewers. In the end it is the listening test that is the final arbiter of performance, and it is here that the reviewers need to spend more time and take greater care. Hopefully doing so will prevent reviewers from recommending two loudspeakers (P and M) as “state-of -the-art” equals when their technical and subjective performances have nothing in common. In retrospect, the only common denominator between these two loudspeakers is price.

 

[k-pad]

Most respected sir @Passive_audio_enthusiast
Only you can put an end to this, with all due respect to everyone, including mods.
Kindly call it a day. Please. Please. Please.
Please, kindly request you to request mods to close thread.
Regards

 

[Enkay78]

Most respected sir @Passive_audio_enthusiast


Please, kindly request you to request mods to close thread.
Regards

But why close?

Aren't we all mature adults here?
Sometimes emotions may run high.....but does it warrant a closure of sane deliberations?

Even though it may feel like flogging the dead horse, I feel we may all benefits with the difference of opinions (off course keeping aside this being personal

 

[k-pad]

Sir, I agree.
But wouldn't you - or even the mods - agree that it belongs to the General Lounge than in QnA?

Of course, not taking anything away from @Passive_audio_enthusiast

Even they may not have envisaged what new hell this thread would be.

 

[ssf]

Since this post began with a reference to ASR, a post reviewing ASR would make for an interesting read.

So, here goes.

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/audio-science-review-review.9827/

Disclaimer: I have very little understanding of science, audio or electrical and the above link to not to put down ASR but to have our members read reviews (objective or subjective) with an open mind.

 

[k-pad]

Since this post began with a reference to ASR, a post reviewing ASR would make for an interesting read.

So, here goes.

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/audio-science-review-review.9827/

Disclaimer: I have very little understanding of science, audio or electrical and the above link to not to put down ASR but to have our members read reviews (objective or subjective) with an open mind.

Thanks, sir
(Narrator: This was never about ASR)

 

[Analogous]

Since this post began with a reference to ASR, a post reviewing ASR would make for an interesting read.

So, here goes.

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/audio-science-review-review.9827/

Disclaimer: I have very little understanding of science, audio or electrical and the above link to not to put down ASR but to have our members read reviews (objective or subjective) with an open mind.

And lo behold! The horse is moving again!!!!

 

[k-pad]

Most respected sir @Passive_audio_enthusiast
Only you can put an end to this, with all due respect to everyone, including mods.
Kindly call it a day. Please. Please. Please.
Please, kindly request you to request mods to close thread.
Regards

Sir?

 

[ssf]

Why close a thread it it is not getting offensive and the discussions are civil, flogging dead horses or not. One can always stay off a thread now can't he. Just saying. This thread has kept me entertained and informed throughout it's pages.

 

[Bloom@83]

Most respected sir @Passive_audio_enthusiast
Only you can put an end to this, with all due respect to everyone, including mods.
Kindly call it a day. Please. Please. Please.
Please, kindly request you to request mods to close thread.
Regards

What’s your problem sir ? You can unwatch it or ignore it. Why unnecessarily calling the Emergency act ?

 

[arj]

Most respected sir @Passive_audio_enthusiast
Only you can put an end to this, with all due respect to everyone, including mods.
Kindly call it a day. Please. Please. Please.
Please, kindly request you to request mods to close thread.
Regards

this was created as an offshoot of another thread hence not really started by him...just has his name since he brought the topic into this discussion

This is a great thread for reference. so many inputs from either side, Lets keep it on as long as Forum Rules are being followed ! am sure as a community we have only learnt from the information given.

 

[k-pad]

this was created as an offshoot of another thread hence not really started by him...just has his name since he brought the topic into this discussion

This is a great thread for reference. so many inputs from either side, Lets keep it on as long as Forum Rules are being followed ! am sure as a community we have only learnt from the information given.

Sure, sir.

 

[raghupb]

I agree, it is an entertaining thread with some strong opinions though.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Analogous]

Why close a thread it it is not getting offensive and the discussions are civil, flogging dead horses or not. One can always stay off a thread now can't he. Just saying. This thread has kept me entertained and informed throughout it's pages.

I have a feeling it has continued to be civil partly because of repeated reminders from @arj on the forum rules.

You are right in alluding to the fact that the easiest way to derail a discussion nowadays (not just here) is by posting offensive comments or by using obnoxious language.

Hey, maybe we are all somewhat enlightened here by now and know enough to watch out for the signs?

Congratulations to all of us!

 

[superczar]

This is an old test - but it is still very relevant given all the discussions we end up having on this topic

How Well Can You Hear Audio Quality?

A hi-def test for your ears (and your audio equipment): Listen to these songs and see if you can tell the difference between an MP3 and an uncompressed audio file.

www.npr.org

On a good resolution system, i do end up getting this right almost each time..
But the effort/concentration required to get even this right is so high that it makes me wonder how people genuinely hear differences between something that is orders of magnitudes subtler (say power cable A vs Power cable B)

Something as blatantly different (mp3 vs wav) should have been very easy to distinguish between otherwise, no?

 

[Bloom@83]

Me wonder how people genuinely hear differences between something that is orders of magnitudes subtler (say power cable A vs Power cable B)

When you’ve just spent 30k for speaker cables over the old ones costing 3K , your guilt automatically makes you hear differences.

 

[DB1989]

This is an old test - but it is still very relevant given all the discussions we end up having on this topic

How Well Can You Hear Audio Quality?

A hi-def test for your ears (and your audio equipment): Listen to these songs and see if you can tell the difference between an MP3 and an uncompressed audio file.

www.npr.org

On a good resolution system, i do end up getting this right almost each time..
But the effort/concentration required to get even this right is so high that it makes me wonder how people genuinely hear differences between something that is orders of magnitudes subtler (say power cable A vs Power cable B)

Something as blatantly different (mp3 vs wav) should have been very easy to distinguish between otherwise, no?

As soon as i saw "speed of sound" on the track list, i knew i was going to like the 128kbps file better. I got that right without much fuss

 

[raghupb]

This is an old test - but it is still very relevant given all the discussions we end up having on this topic

<snip>

I am really surprised myself with the results of this test. Used earplugs on laptop (AKG something).
Result:
Tracks 1/2/3/6 as uncompressed WAV
Track 4 as 128kbps
Track 5 as 320kbps

Now in a lighter vein, tracks 4 and 5 are by female artists.
So does it mean I'm tone deaf to women? My wife definitely thinks so

Cheers,
Raghu