Objectivity vs Subjectivity

[Yogesh]

I am in Subjective Camp firmly!

I will go for something my ears measure well. Period. I won't care for measurements by any instruments, or other ears for that matter.

 

[arj]

@firearm12 i think you are confident in trusting your ears while making choices because you have several years of experience in this hobby and know the kind of sound you want.

I remember listening to your set up with the Audiogd DAC and amp (Quad floorstanders). The SQ was superb. I am not surprised objectively they did not measure well.

Maybe in some instances DACs with excellent objective measurements can be removed from the short list of items under consideration?

In audio the Objectivists vs Subjectivists is almost around treating audio as a science vs art.

Hope some day in the future it will come together

 

[Analogous]

In audio the Objectivists vs Subjectivists is almost around treating audio as a science vs art.

Hope some day in the future it will come together

We can surely hope for a balanced approach.
I have bought some gear unheard because of great objective measurements and did not like them.
I suppose It all comes down to my ears/brain, my system and my room... Only I can decide what sounds best to me...
After all the reviews, measurements, import hassles I have to discover if I like it enough to tie the knot…otherwise…
@arj your signature is also a good reminder!

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

We can surely hope for a balanced approach.
I have bought some gear unheard because of great objective measurements and did not like them.
I suppose It all comes down to my ears/brain, my system and my room... Only I can decide what sounds best to me...
After all the reviews, measurements, import hassles I have to discover if I like it enough to tie the knot…otherwise…
@arj your signature is also a good reminder!

Sometimes I must buy "blind" because the item I am interested in is not available locally. I have bought equipment that I did not like and it ended up in storage. My family members will, on occasion, remind me that not only was the money spent not utilized but it is also taking up space in our home (these items are not small). I say this because I understand all too well what you mean about "tie the knot". Equipment, particularly musical equipment, can become emotionally involving.

 

[arj]

We can surely hope for a balanced approach.
I have bought some gear unheard because of great objective measurements and did not like them.
I suppose It all comes down to my ears/brain, my system and my room... Only I can decide what sounds best to me...
After all the reviews, measurements, import hassles I have to discover if I like it enough to tie the knot…otherwise…
@arj your signature is also a good reminder!

actually today, every component, except the DAC, I have is bought blind.

But buying blind means months of research via owners/forums/reviewers etc !

 

[Analogous]

actually today, every component, except the DAC, I have is bought blind.

But buying blind means months of research via owners/forums/reviewers etc !

Good point! Different paths to reach a point of satisfaction.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

actually today, every component, except the DAC, I have is bought blind.

But buying blind means months of research via owners/forums/reviewers etc !

Everything I own ( audio equipment) was bought blind!

2 of the amps (same model) I bought are "spares" which was bought because I liked the first one (same model, previous gen) which was bought blind.

2 of the mid bass cabinets I bought were also bought blind, I had heard the driver in them prior to purchase albeit in a different enclosure.

1 of the amps I bought was from the same line as an amp I had heard but the amp I heard was under less than ideal circumstances with less than ideal speakers. Later I bought the same model I had heard as well in the less than ideal circumstances after having experience with the 1st amp I had bought in my setup.

Other than this everything is blind.

I did my due diligence as you describe but even so I am sure you will agree that whether something "clicks" can only be understood after buying it and listening to it in your setup.

 

[Enkay78]

Moot point is :

Each of us is entitled to his/her taste and subjective opinions.

The problem is when subjectivists insists that their opinion is the best and what they hear is the best for others. Therein lies the debate.

No objectivist will ever denigrate a subjectivists to choose bad measuring devices. That's his choice. However it's a snobbish and elitist trend to observe subjectivists insist that what they hear and see, and their taste is the best.....and insist this notion on others.

In the audiophile circle it has been found out that most prefer a certain coloration of their sound. But to generalise that preference as something we , non-audiophiles included, would also want has not been shown by research.

For eg, I may not prefer the Harman curve. But it cannot be denied that it's a measure of what most people prefer. (Trained or untrained listeners).

 

[Love4sound]

Moot point is :

Each of us is entitled to his/her taste and subjective opinions.

The problem is when subjectivists insists that their opinion is the best and what they hear is the best for others. Therein lies the debate.

Also subjectivists who absolutely have no knowledge on Audio/video like it or not tech is involved and certain parameters do matter for people who want quality and who have good ears and eyes to differentiate them. Such subjectivists can’t see or hear it . There is reference and preference period

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

Each of us is entitled to his/her taste and subjective opinions.

The problem is when subjectivists insists that their opinion is the best and what they hear is the best for others. Therein lies the debate.


For eg, I may not prefer the Harman curve. But it cannot be denied that it's a measure of what most people prefer. (Trained or untrained listeners).

Indeed we are.

I have not seen subjectivists doing so, conversely my opinion is that objectivists do so.

I disagree with the last line, Harman is a commercial entity pushing it's products. It published it's own research (through Floyd Toole and Sean Olive). As such Harman's own research (given it is a commerical entity standing to gain from said research) can not be trusted. It should be noted here that Amir (from ASR) is a Harman dealer, and has acknowledged as such on some of his reviews to my knowledge, he has also noted sometimes being friends with the people at Harman.

JBL 4349 Review (Studio Monitor Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the JBL 4349 2-way Studio Monitor (passive). All of you were too cheap to buy one so I had to do it myself. Out of my own money no less! Luckily I got a discount from the retail cost of US $7,500 for a pair. Note: our company, Madrona Digital...

www.audiosciencereview.com

He notes -

"Note: our company, Madrona Digital, is a dealer for Haman, parent company of JBL. So feel free to read as much bias as you like into the following review.'

Props to him for at least noting it.

Later he notes -

"I am going to put the JBL 4349 on my recommended list. Go ahead and hate on me due to objective measurements above. I am ready to take it! "

Just my humble opinion.

 

[drkrack]

Due to audioscsiencereview’s bad reviews on Hegel, naim, regas and so on the resale value on these stuff has taken a huge hit.

Please recheck Audiogon Prices of highend amps, there hasn't been any significant changes in resale value, especially nobody attributes that to ASR reviews, other than ASR "Bhakts" ...

Having Said that, ASR Review has its own place in buying decision making. ASR will give you a clue as to whether the device under consideration has been reasonably engineered to the current standards or not, also it evaluates the manufacturer claims for accuracy. Which many of non Technical Audiophiles may not be able to perform on their own. Once you have this data you can consider buying the equipment. But ultimate buying decision will be based on how it sounds to my ears. Unless there's a huge engineering flaw like too much Noise, LR imbalance I'd not give much importance to ASR opinion, beyond this point. It is like 2 Wheeler Escorts ahead of A VIP Limo, they'll survey the area and let the VIP know that all is well with security arrangements. VIP being your ear which needs to be satisfied for final decision making.

Even the best of designers and Manfactures do leave the final tuning (read voicing) to human ears and don't launch a product just on the basis of Freq graph, every product goes through extensive listening and retuning before reaching the end user. If the measurements were everything; whats the need to listen to the product before releasing them to market?

I find this unnecessary Criticism and Glorification of ASR reviews quite Absurd and unwarranted. Use ASR reviews in your decision making and give it a importance it deserves, never solely buy or reject a component based on ASR reviews.

 

[firearm12]

@firearm12 i think you are confident in trusting your ears while making choices because you have several years of experience in this hobby and know the kind of sound you want.

I remember listening to your set up with the Audiogd DAC and amp (Quad floorstanders). The SQ was superb. I am not surprised objectively they did not measure well.

Maybe in some instances DACs with excellent objective measurements can be removed from the short list of items under consideration?

Haha thanks for good words but trust me I am nowhere as experienced as many of our fellow FMs here and neither my ears are good in judgement. Also I maybe one of the young audiophiles (but age wise not so young) here. My journey started in 2015. But I admit I have spent lot of money (than I could afford), time and effort on this hobby. The SQ that you found good, i thought it could have been better. Only thing I have realised that there is nothing as 100% satisfaction in audio here. The rave reviews that are written about different products online, they actually might make even less than 10% difference in what you already hear in your system. One more thing I have realised is that the satisfaction level can really increase by not actually upgrading to better equipment but making changes so that the existing equipment sounds upto its real potential. I get real satisfaction if I know that the equipment that I have is performing upto its highest potential. That's the only satisfaction I look forward to in this hobby. If I can achieve that and make my equipment sound upto its real potential and feel it cannot sound better anymore, i am satisfied. One way to attain it is to have all your equipment in your chain on a certain level of quality. I mean I have seen many guys who have good speakers and amp but they do not believe in sources and then say 'sound is not good, i will upgrade my amplifier or speaker'. This is wrong approach. Believe me whatever experience I have in this hobby I have found that if you strive to make your system sound at its best, then every thing matters be it source, vibration control, room, connectors, wires, electricity, even where and on what have you placed your speakers and electronics, everything matters, just everything.

 

[arj]

When we say measurements and listening are we looking at 2 aspects which when add together give you a closer approximation of the " truth" ?

With measurements we are measuring how well engineered the product is eg in a speaker how much it resonates, its dispersion , range, impedance swings etc etc

But to know how well it reproduced jagjit singhs voice , whether you get the chesty feel or not, can you giess at what age he was singing it etc etc one has to listen to it.

And when one is listening using the measurements , you do get an idea as to how much bass to expect, how much to be toed in, how near the wall and what kind of an amp to pair it with etc. Without the measurements you might not get to listen to it the right way and may get a wrong perspective but again looking at the measurements there is no way you will know how it will sound.

The challenge that the norms for these measurements itself are not standardised and that would be a good step forward.

 

[Enkay78]

Lol when did this thread become pro ASR anti ASR?

why so much weight is given to a website ASR, and not the the real issue of objective parameters of the hobby and audio industry?


It's very interesting thing which one is beginning to observe in an increasing frequency in this forum.

For god's sake check Erin, audioholics, archimago......or the other upcoming objective reviewers

Let's not be ASR tinted. It belittle the discourse.

 

[Analogous]

The number of variables involved makes it very complicated to come up with a formula that is applicable universally to achieve good sound from our set ups.

Here are some in no particular order:

Our ears and how trained or experienced we are in recognising excellent audio quality, ability to note anomalies
Quality of recordings (varies wildly from sublime to terrible).
Source transport: vinyl, CD, streaming, files stored in a computer/NAS- each has its own character and our personal preferences/choices and how we interact with them physically.
Aesthetics of the equipment and marketing hype (influences our opinions, expectations)
Amp and DAC architecture and design, performance and how they interact with the chosen speakers.
Speaker design and architecture, performance in how it handles and performs with partnered electronics.
Speaker and listening position placement
Room acoustics and treatment
Power supply
Cables, interconnects
Our mood, expectations, health
Support of wife/husband
Our friends opinions, influences.
Online reviews, user feedback
Budget available
Our hearing capacity
Euphoria inducing substances used, or not
Choice of music genres

I am sure there are more I missed. But what I am trying to say is all of these are variable in themselves as also variable in how they interact with each other and impact SQ. Often with unexpected outcomes.

Getting this complex mixture right, to our liking is a skill and even art, with a generous helping of science added, some luck and a lot of perseverance.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

Please recheck Audiogon Prices of highend amps, there hasn't been any significant changes in resale value, especially nobody attributes that to ASR reviews, other than ASR "Bhakts" ...

Having Said that, ASR Review has its own place in buying decision making. ASR will give you a clue as to whether the device under consideration has been reasonably engineered to the current standards or not, also it evaluates the manufacturer claims for accuracy. Which many of non Technical Audiophiles may not be able to perform on their own. Once you have this data you can consider buying the equipment. But ultimate buying decision will be based on how it sounds to my ears. Unless there's a huge engineering flaw like too much Noise, LR imbalance I'd not give much importance to ASR opinion, beyond this point. It is like 2 Wheeler Escorts ahead of A VIP Limo, they'll survey the area and let the VIP know that all is well with security arrangements. VIP being your ear which needs to be satisfied for final decision making.

Even the best of designers and Manfactures do leave the final tuning (read voicing) to human ears and don't launch a product just on the basis of Freq graph, every product goes through extensive listening and retuning before reaching the end user. If the measurements were everything; whats the need to listen to the product before releasing them to market?

I find this unnecessary Criticism and Glorification of ASR reviews quite Absurd and unwarranted. Use ASR reviews in your decision making and give it a importance it deserves, never solely buy or reject a component based on ASR reviews.

I wonder what is the motivation on still buying a product after knowing it has some obvious flaws?

 

[raghupb]

Measurements are good to assess a component's potential.
What it actually does, is up to the ears and room.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

Measurements are good to assess a component's potential.
What it actually does, is up to the ears and room.

Cheers,
Raghu

But I think there are products that would work in most rooms Better than others. You can see those from their directivity patterns. Some thing we listen at a store ambience will never sound the same(can be better or bad depends on our room) in our rooms, unless it’s directivity is good.

Again, if frequency response issues can be corrected with a eq. But for that speaker need to have very low distortion figures to let the distortion below audible limit. In the case of a kef r series speaker, it’s insanely low, meaning even if you didn’t like the stock sound, it can be flexed to any sound practically you like. And controlled directivity means, side wall reflections aren’t going to be an issue like traditional speakers. Imo it’s extremely underrated for its virtues over regular 2 way speakers.

 

[Enkay78]

The number of variables involved makes it very complicated to come up with a formula that is applicable universally to achieve good sound from our set ups.

Here are some in no particular order:

Our ears and how trained or experienced we are in recognising excellent audio quality, ability to note anomalies
Quality of recordings (varies wildly from sublime to terrible).
Source transport: vinyl, CD, streaming, files stored in a computer/NAS- each has its own character and our personal preferences/choices and how we interact with them physically.
Aesthetics of the equipment and marketing hype (influences our opinions, expectations)
Amp and DAC architecture and design, performance and how they interact with the chosen speakers.
Speaker design and architecture, performance in how it handles and performs with partnered electronics.
Speaker and listening position placement
Room acoustics and treatment
Power supply
Cables, interconnects
Our mood, expectations, health
Support of wife/husband
Our friends opinions, influences.
Online reviews, user feedback
Budget available
Our hearing capacity
Euphoria inducing substances used, or not
Choice of music genres

I am sure there are more I missed. But what I am trying to say is all of these are variable in themselves as also variable in how they interact with each other and impact SQ. Often with unexpected outcomes.

Getting this complex mixture right, to our liking is a skill and even art, with a generous helping of science added, some luck and a lot of perseverance.

That variables are actually some of the most flouted pseudoscience and myths.

Just because we are less exposed to the many years of research and real data of audio....we, as consumers tend to believe by peer persuasion of subjective pushers and the vested lobby of the audiophile industry.

The science and objective measurements are very clear and the specifics have been hunted, studied and applied. These have been the rock solid foundation from which today we are having such electronics with SOTA performance. The audio chips ESS, AKM have been innovated and engineered with objective variables.

We have also progressed from analog to digital.

One feels the chaffs of vested interest needs to be removed. End users like us should start seeing the industry with some logic and rationale.

I mean it's mind boggling how cables are priced unlike the network and PC industry. Just look at the price of interconnects. And the thrust for power conditioners.

And off course how much room acoustics is how much for end user.

Even though my income allows me to buy a 37 lakh Mark Levinson 50 anniversary amp, I know I will never buy such. I value my money more than a 20-30 kg archaic technology amp which may measures just equally (engineered for the physics of electronics) with a Rs 20k Class D amp with SOTA measurements (?)

Semi rant. I agree to disagree

 

[Analogous]

That variables are actually some of the most flouted pseudoscience and myths.

Just because we are less exposed to the many years of research and real data of audio....we, as consumers tend to believe by peer persuasion of subjective pushers and the vested lobby of the audiophile industry.

The science and objective measurements are very clear and the specifics have been hunted, studied and applied. These have been the rock solid foundation from which today we are having such electronics with SOTA performance. The audio chips ESS, AKM have been innovated and engineered with objective variables.

We have also progressed from analog to digital.

One feels the chaffs of vested interest needs to be removed. End users like us should start seeing the industry with some logic and rationale.

I mean it's mind boggling how cables are priced unlike the network and PC industry. Just look at the price of interconnects. And the thrust for power conditioners.

And off course how much room acoustics is how much for end user.

Even though my income allows me to buy a 37 lakh Mark Levinson 50 anniversary amp, I know I will never buy such. I value my money more than a 20-30 kg archaic technology amp which may measures just equally (engineered for the physics of electronics) with a Rs 20k Class D amp with SOTA measurements (?)

Semi rant. I agree to disagree

Feel free to disagree @Enkay78
I must confess I am not entirely clear what you are disagreeing with.
Some/all of the examples you mention seem to actually support what I was getting at.
Feel free to agree too