I will agree to disagree here.
At home I currently have 3 DACs.
1. One measures well
2. One that does not
3. One that's "left" field (in baseball terminology)
Guess what clicks? And in what order?
Cheers,
Raghu
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Objectivity vs Subjectivity
- Thread starter Passive_audio_enthusiast
- Start date
At home I currently have 3 DACs.
1. One measures well
2. One that does not
3. One that's "left" field (in baseball terminology)
Guess what clicks? And in what order?
Cheers,
Raghu
So there is a market for 3 kinds of people. I think the world is big enough to accomodate all three.
1. The Janta. This the market for people who love bass and a digitally processed sound. This is what Bose caters to. This is huge. These are the most happy lot. Ignorance is bliss they say.
2. The audiophile - This the market for people who too like processed sound, but processing happens through imperfect cables, which mostly add differing amount of capacitance to change the sound signature. They believe their ears more than anything else. ASR is like forbidden territory. These are by and large a happy lot. They believe they have the perfect system all working in harmony, until you see them selling their equipment in hifivision classified. The only thing that disturbs their harmony is the ASR and the objective who constantly implying that they are no different from the bose users.
3. The objective - They think those who hear bose are weird and believe the average audiophile is a person who easily gets pacified by placebos or is hallucinating with their ears They go by ASR and are the unhappy lot, because nothing pleases them unless they see measurements.
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Passive_audio_enthusiast
Well-Known Member
To you the best would be the one matching your idea of ideal sound. It doesn’t necessary have to be the most accurate out of the lot.
That’s what I too meant. You can look at the measurements to understand how it sounds. I never said one HAS to select always the best measuring one. They can take according to their preference, but I meant that can be done by looking at the measurement itself
ideal sound doesn't exist. I haven't yet heard a system where, if I close my eyes, i will not be able to make out if it comes from speakers or if the sound coming from an actual human being.
When it comes to an actual human being, you don't require room treatment, distance from the walls, or any special thing. Sound coming from an actual human being, actual instruments in the room is always superior to sound coming from any equipment. This is where measurements help in giving you information on how imperfect your equipment is.
When it comes to an actual human being, you don't require room treatment, distance from the walls, or any special thing. Sound coming from an actual human being, actual instruments in the room is always superior to sound coming from any equipment. This is where measurements help in giving you information on how imperfect your equipment is.
superczar
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I am almost always stumped by this topic.
But it seems most on this thread seem to agree on one thing which is that audio signature preferences can vary
1) Amplifier A measures well i.e. has a flat response curve with minimal distortion - but may or may not sound great to me
2) Amplifier B may not measure well but sounds great to my ears because it sounds warm
(you could replace warm with rhythmic, or forward or bright etc etc - the exact term is the contributing factor towards why B sounds great to me over A)
------------------------------
Would it perhaps not make sense to try minimize the variables at play and thus reduce the complexity/confusion involved in matching amps with speakers and cables and DAC and well, even power cables.
And Instead choose the most neutral sounding setup possible for the Amplification / reproduction stage
And this is important - tweak only one of the components prior to the amplification stage to obtain the sound one prefers.
Ceteris Paribus as the economists here would say
For a purist, that could perhaps involve choosing a tube pre-amp that introduces the much loved lower order distortions..
For the rhythm/ impeccable timing seekers, the answer may lie in a R2R DAC.
For the tech oriented, choosing a PEQ module or curve adjustment module right before the amp that shapes the output curve to their preference.
Maybe even Unaltered for the objectivist amongst us?
Would that not be a more controlled pursuit - that would also likely yield better results at a lower cost outlay?
But it seems most on this thread seem to agree on one thing which is that audio signature preferences can vary
1) Amplifier A measures well i.e. has a flat response curve with minimal distortion - but may or may not sound great to me
2) Amplifier B may not measure well but sounds great to my ears because it sounds warm
(you could replace warm with rhythmic, or forward or bright etc etc - the exact term is the contributing factor towards why B sounds great to me over A)
------------------------------
Would it perhaps not make sense to try minimize the variables at play and thus reduce the complexity/confusion involved in matching amps with speakers and cables and DAC and well, even power cables.
And Instead choose the most neutral sounding setup possible for the Amplification / reproduction stage
And this is important - tweak only one of the components prior to the amplification stage to obtain the sound one prefers.
Ceteris Paribus as the economists here would say
For a purist, that could perhaps involve choosing a tube pre-amp that introduces the much loved lower order distortions..
For the rhythm/ impeccable timing seekers, the answer may lie in a R2R DAC.
For the tech oriented, choosing a PEQ module or curve adjustment module right before the amp that shapes the output curve to their preference.
Maybe even Unaltered for the objectivist amongst us?
Would that not be a more controlled pursuit - that would also likely yield better results at a lower cost outlay?
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Amplifier A measures well and sounds good to me. Example are the new class D Amps. I belong to this camp. In fact I have junked my expensive class A amp with a sub Rs 10,000 class D amp.
Amplifier B does not measure well but also sounds bad to me. Examples are the Class A valve amps. I belong to this camp and I find the sound so warm, artificial and inaccurate
So both kind of people exist. Those whose ears tally with measurments and those whose ears are diametrical opposite to the what is measured
superczar
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of course.. Amps that measure bad and sound bad are anyway out of contention.
The point I was trying to make is different.
But first, an anecdote
There is this rather old Marantz Amp I got at the start of my hi-fi journey - almost 2 decades ago.
Cost me a pretty penny - especially in relation to my earnings then
Does it subjectively sound better in standalone mode vs say a recent Crown that I got - You bet! - It has a distinct warm signature to the sound that makes the crown sound clinical, almost shrill in comparison.
Having said that, I also know why that is the case - it rolls off after about 6K much steeper than the Crown which has a much flatter response curve thus making it sound a tad artificial to my ears.
If I had to do it today, I would (as an example) opt for a crown and leverage say Anthem Room Correction to tweak the pre-amp output to replicate what I like about the old Marantz.
A Cheaper solution that is objectively better yet satisfies the subjective sound seeker in me..Voila!
If frequency manipulation is something a purist doesn't like, they could very well use more traditional mechanisms.
But in either case, it's a case of choosing between
A) Multiple variables that cannot be altered and try to achieve the preferred balance
B) Tweak a single variable with the rest of the equipment being objectively measured as flat/good to achieve the preferred balance
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Since when has being objective become a crime?
There are equipment that measure bad and sound good to certain class of people. I'm talking about those. The snake oil market is full of people trying to sell equipment that measures bad. I have an personal examples. You may have heard often heard that the computer power supply is noisy because it uses SMPS. These SMPS induces jitter and that affects the clock on your DAC leading to imperfect sound. And there are products that magically remove this noise. You will often see these devices in our classfieds though the owner will not admit that these devices are useless. Foremost are those from uptone audio and iFI. I have uptone audio and I find it does nothing. In fact it sits inside a lonely cupboard in my room. Only recently I found that this is snake oil from ASR. Just see how uptone audio dealt with Amir when he tried to obtain the device to do measurements.
www.audiosciencereview.com
I know I will be ruffling feathers of those who own this exotic usb cleaners costing 300$ upwards. Forgive me.
There are equipment that measure bad and sound good to certain class of people. I'm talking about those. The snake oil market is full of people trying to sell equipment that measures bad. I have an personal examples. You may have heard often heard that the computer power supply is noisy because it uses SMPS. These SMPS induces jitter and that affects the clock on your DAC leading to imperfect sound. And there are products that magically remove this noise. You will often see these devices in our classfieds though the owner will not admit that these devices are useless. Foremost are those from uptone audio and iFI. I have uptone audio and I find it does nothing. In fact it sits inside a lonely cupboard in my room. Only recently I found that this is snake oil from ASR. Just see how uptone audio dealt with Amir when he tried to obtain the device to do measurements.
Uptone ISO Regen Review and Measurements
In the last few years the floodgates have opened to all manner of digital audio tweaks. One of the ones in vogue now is "cleaning" the USB data bus. It makes "intuitive sense" with USB being connected to a noisy computer which conveys that noise to the DAC and hence, damages the sound...
www.audiosciencereview.com
I know I will be ruffling feathers of those who own this exotic usb cleaners costing 300$ upwards. Forgive me.
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Yelamanchili manohar
Well-Known Member
Running a 1 Khz sine wave through a component, and then measuring distortion is no way of measuring at all. And he always mentions that he didn't listen to it, or use it as intended.
Reviewers listen to stuff, and then the good ones measure to corborate their listening. But he is different, I guess he is just as dumb and deaf as me.( check my signature
)Take this, he measures the Dspeaker antimode 2.0 and gave it a horrible verdict. The dspeaker is designed to do bass correction, and it does a stunning job at that, as I can personally attest, as I use one. The default bass correction range it is designed for is 150hz. But he wants to run a 1000 hz signal through it. He never even tried how it sounded with doing what it is intended for which is in the bass range.
Second case, he gave positive verdict on the minidsp SHD. And if one follows that thread enough, it is respondent with his bhakts claiming that, this is all the dac one ever needs. Anyone spending a penny more on anything else is stupid . That the powwr induced distortion is below audible limit. And I have one at hand too, bought on the faith of his review, that is before I came across his DSpeaker review, and realised what a chump he was. Anyways, I fire up the minidsp SHD, and the first thing I notice is the typical lean and bright ( I call it grainy ) sound, I always associate with ESS chip dacs, when someone has crimpred at spending on the analogue output stage. Second, the room filling soundstage I had immediately shrank. But that's still fine, considering it's price point, but when I start throwing tough tracks at it, it completely looses instrument separation. Everything sounds like one bloody mess between the speakers. ASR still doesn't know how or what to measure. The ability of a dac or amp or speaker to render individual notes in separation, when the going gets busy, is what differentiates one box from the other.
Pitch black background, which the minidsp SHD definitely doesn't have, due to its noisy SMPS power supply even when running off my power regenerator. Purity of tone, which it again doesn't have, due to the cost cutting analogue output implementation. And instrument separation which it again doesn't have on complex tracks, means it works best as a door stop
(And pitch black back ground, purity of tone, instrumental separation, sound staging and imaging are what we seek in a component upgrade )The Chinese toppings and SMSL's can build dacs and amps that can measure the best at 1000 hz, to get top ratings with ASR, but there is tons more to audio than that. So I would still advocae listening first. Just my 2 cents
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I don't know about uptone but ASR guy also thinks that linear PSUs are also do not cause any audible improvements in dacs. I don't understand why asr is being followed too much.
www.audiosciencereview.com
Conclusions
It is clear that whether you use the USB power, or the supplied switching power supply, there is absolutely no audible improvement in the output of the DAC with linear power supplies. One can help himself believe otherwise by looking at the noise spectrum alone as I have shown in the last graph. But again, we don't listen to power supply wires. Those waveforms go through filtering stages even in cheapest DACs.
Do you need linear power supply for DACs?
Probably the most asked about question about DACs on audio forums is whether an external, usually linear, power supply improves performance. It just makes sense that it would do that. Doesn't it? Well, let's see if we can figure this out. I have been kindly loaned a Wyrd4Sound PS-1 power...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Conclusions
It is clear that whether you use the USB power, or the supplied switching power supply, there is absolutely no audible improvement in the output of the DAC with linear power supplies. One can help himself believe otherwise by looking at the noise spectrum alone as I have shown in the last graph. But again, we don't listen to power supply wires. Those waveforms go through filtering stages even in cheapest DACs.
Very well put it across, science should be used design what the consumer wants, not to blame him for his choices, saying his choice doesn't measure well according to some engineering facts; when most of the end product success is based on subjective experience of the consumer and not on scientific accuracy.
Huge flaws like engineering blunders , huge misrepresentation of technical data in Spec sheet is a obvious deterrent for buying. ASR serves a great purpose in revealing the intentional misrepresentation in Spec sheet by manufacturers which will otherwise go unabated. But Intentional Flaws, which we know that serve to enhance the subjective experience of end user; when you know that you don't need a neutral component (Like the one mentioned by Prem in the post above).
None of the groups have any divine right bestowed upon them , to judge other group or criticise others preferences. Because many in so called Objectivist group behave like ASR Bhakts rather than true Objectivists, and they are least objective about their own hearing inferences
. It is like Coffee/Tea Purists criticising people who prefer adding Milk, Sugar, Ginger or Cardamom to their Tea/Coffee.There are Lots of instances where he has been proven wrong ; but the best part about Amir is he takes Positive constructive Criticism very well, corrects himself and graciously acknowledges his mistakes. Sadly, his Bhakts don't , for them its a Gospel.
I have gone through the Class D route quite extensively, never liked them beyond LF. For my ears, they're good for bass (and maybe better than AB for bass ) and that's it. For Mids and HF I'd still prefer Class AB or A by huge margin YMMV.
The Most important difference between Subjectivists and Objectivists is that subjectivists mostly end their conclusions with YMMV (your mileage might Vary), whereas Objectivists expect that (Regarding Conclusion About a Component) Your Mileage Should Not Vary, just because Measurements are universal and easily reproducible !
Enkay78
Well-Known Member
I like ASR (the way some FMs insinuates with terms like ‘bhakts’ are not respectful of different opinions. It’s infantile) and guys like Amir because that website purpose is to spread the awareness of audio (science/technology/psychology). Most of what is imparted in that website are very informative. And if one look at the members there.
The point is not to take as ASR gospel of audio. Rather ASR is highlighting the less known aspect of research and science behind it. Point is to take ASR as a parcel of a endeavour to bring the much needed objectivity in this field at our consumer level.
Let’s accept a fact : the consumer industry, audiophile industry has lots of snake oil and dishonesty/scamming based the profound ignorance of the consumers. These ignorant consumers ….or rather this ignorance …is not due to to individual lack of intellect, but rather a vested advertisement of myths to serve the purpose of commercial dividends. Hence this dishonesty needs to be fought by science for the health of this industry.(and hobby). The value chain system needs to be rationalize and democratized. (Especially for new entrants to the hobby and industry)
The manufacturers or lobby of those who profess their products are transparent but the measurements shows poor engineered product should be exposed. They should be punished. They should be fearful of consumer backlash for their dishonesty. And the priests of dishonest reviewers and pushers.
It’s all upto each one of us how to spend, and how to like what one hears music. But let’s also be open to an awareness that there has been years of audio research but sold data about what humans prefer as music, and various curves, responses, recording/reproduction, storage. And as consumers being ignorant about this is not healthy for the hobby itself. Otherwise we are tacit in making the snake oils/dishonesty exists taking advantage of our ignorance.
Subjectivity is an inherent aspect of enjoying music. This is fundamental. And I don’t think any objectivist will argue against it. It’s the application of subjectivity at areas where objectivity should be fundamental that’s the problem.
What Hifi is highly subjective. Just do a pattern study of all its reviews. One may observe subtle push for certain products….and especially more pricier ones. And if one read further deep into what whathifi represents, one will see the ‘commercialization’ plainly. Afterall the industry needs a healthy dose of profits. The angst is when that interests hurts the interest of the consumers. The industry thrives from the money of buyers. And if the buyers are shortchanged, then ………that’s where buyers needs to be standing with questions to the industry/hobby.
Personally , ASR has influenced me a lot. I started reading the researches of Toole and Olive. The science behind harman curve and all. And all these things about frequency responses. Many of the science are still above my head. But I am a happy learner. With this background of some knowledge I can see what subjective reviewers are talking about. And what can be studied in a product. Rather the appreciation of honesty enabled by measurements is a fresh breath of air to me , as a consumer.
To buy a mediocre measuring amps/DACs/speakers and enjoy it - has always been a prerogative of each of our individual end. The debate and discourse is not about us- the individual consumer. The much needed dosage of objectivity is to make the industry more healthy, honest ………AND TRANSPARENT.
THAT BENEFITS ALL OF US
The point is not to take as ASR gospel of audio. Rather ASR is highlighting the less known aspect of research and science behind it. Point is to take ASR as a parcel of a endeavour to bring the much needed objectivity in this field at our consumer level.
Let’s accept a fact : the consumer industry, audiophile industry has lots of snake oil and dishonesty/scamming based the profound ignorance of the consumers. These ignorant consumers ….or rather this ignorance …is not due to to individual lack of intellect, but rather a vested advertisement of myths to serve the purpose of commercial dividends. Hence this dishonesty needs to be fought by science for the health of this industry.(and hobby). The value chain system needs to be rationalize and democratized. (Especially for new entrants to the hobby and industry)
The manufacturers or lobby of those who profess their products are transparent but the measurements shows poor engineered product should be exposed. They should be punished. They should be fearful of consumer backlash for their dishonesty. And the priests of dishonest reviewers and pushers.
It’s all upto each one of us how to spend, and how to like what one hears music. But let’s also be open to an awareness that there has been years of audio research but sold data about what humans prefer as music, and various curves, responses, recording/reproduction, storage. And as consumers being ignorant about this is not healthy for the hobby itself. Otherwise we are tacit in making the snake oils/dishonesty exists taking advantage of our ignorance.
Subjectivity is an inherent aspect of enjoying music. This is fundamental. And I don’t think any objectivist will argue against it. It’s the application of subjectivity at areas where objectivity should be fundamental that’s the problem.
What Hifi is highly subjective. Just do a pattern study of all its reviews. One may observe subtle push for certain products….and especially more pricier ones. And if one read further deep into what whathifi represents, one will see the ‘commercialization’ plainly. Afterall the industry needs a healthy dose of profits. The angst is when that interests hurts the interest of the consumers. The industry thrives from the money of buyers. And if the buyers are shortchanged, then ………that’s where buyers needs to be standing with questions to the industry/hobby.
Personally , ASR has influenced me a lot. I started reading the researches of Toole and Olive. The science behind harman curve and all. And all these things about frequency responses. Many of the science are still above my head. But I am a happy learner. With this background of some knowledge I can see what subjective reviewers are talking about. And what can be studied in a product. Rather the appreciation of honesty enabled by measurements is a fresh breath of air to me , as a consumer.
To buy a mediocre measuring amps/DACs/speakers and enjoy it - has always been a prerogative of each of our individual end. The debate and discourse is not about us- the individual consumer. The much needed dosage of objectivity is to make the industry more healthy, honest ………AND TRANSPARENT.
THAT BENEFITS ALL OF US
So in the end.
Measurement : Gives a perspective of a Components Engineering ie how close it is to designers planned specs and output
Observation/Hearing : Gives you a perspective to what you really like when the above interacts with your System/Room
The designer defines the specs based on what the target segment for hearing is ie some are designed flat some are euphonic etc.
We) build a system to listen to music and enjoy it and whether it conforms to some audio design which someone has defined as "Ideal"is not really important. But we do expect it to be well designed and consistent
No way I am listening to a speaker just because it measured flat ..but will listen to it if the music I love sounds the way I would expect it. and the corollary is that if the speakers does not test flat but sounds good most of is will still go for it.
Measurement : Gives a perspective of a Components Engineering ie how close it is to designers planned specs and output
Observation/Hearing : Gives you a perspective to what you really like when the above interacts with your System/Room
The designer defines the specs based on what the target segment for hearing is ie some are designed flat some are euphonic etc.
We) build a system to listen to music and enjoy it and whether it conforms to some audio design which someone has defined as "Ideal"is not really important. But we do expect it to be well designed and consistent
No way I am listening to a speaker just because it measured flat ..but will listen to it if the music I love sounds the way I would expect it. and the corollary is that if the speakers does not test flat but sounds good most of is will still go for it.
Enkay78
Well-Known Member
Yes absolutely.
But it’s also prudent that we counter any subjectivity which contest years of scientific audio research.
And especially subjectivity which runs contrary to the science of physics.
We also need to understand that we cannot compare or bring standardisation by subjective opinions- either of trained listers/musician/reviewers. The much needed standardisation is much based on objective parameters. (And backed by long years of research.). But yes the research is ongoing. And better standardisation may evolve in future.
True. As long as we still keep to context that music is an art form and what we are trying to do is define the measurements of an art form hence it is the measurements which have to further improve in order to bring that gap between the measurement vs hearing together.
What differentiates an audiophile ( who is a more discerning listener) is the ability to make sound better with the right choice of equipment and its placement. This comes with a good assessment of sound which can come from measurements or experiential learning which is the subjective vs objective discussion.
What measurement will help is in ensuring that you get what has been specced for . eg today each speaker manufacturer have their own way of measuring the frequency response.
Some do it in an anechoic chamber, some in a real specced room and still others in an open area. hence the term 40-20KHz really does not mean much ..eg an ATC goes much lower than its specs and most others never reach it. And impedance/Phase curves etc are not even published. eg a B&W 805 used to have a drop to 3ohms with a wide change in phase and hence the reason many amps could not drive it despite its higher sensitivity.
Hopefully we have better defined standards which are adopted as a practice in the future as that will give more perspective to this discussion as well and hence a better match between what we hear and whats measured.
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Enkay78
Well-Known Member
I want to make a small correction:
The objectivists argument has never been about measuring the art of music. Music preference however is a measurable parameters amongst a set of population. (That is statistics and demographics.) The harman curve is a measurable curve which showcase the statistical preference of the sample of population tested (which off course were selected to reflect the whole human population, consisting of trained and untrained ears).
Billie Eilish music has lots of bass and distortions. That does not mean her music is bad. That’s her art. But if my amps/DACs color that music with distortions/noise/jitters/additional harmonics, that means my devices are bad. Fundamentally we should have a transparent audio reproduction. But if I like Billies music with more mids and highs, then that’s my subjective taste/preference. My taste cannot be a generalisation, and imposed on others to like what I hear.
The placebo effect, psychoacoustic must become more prominent in the consumer awareness so that much the myths and pseudoscience can be debunked. And bring more transparency and honesty.
Here’s a ‘major contributor’ at ASR responding to a fellow FM who stated that he didn’t need a blind test to tell the difference between CDs and SACDs:
“really? never needed eh?
could your wife hear the difference from the kitchen?”
Took me less than a minute to find a nasty comment.
Personally, I find the ASR fraternity rude and hostile. Any hint of subjectivity is met with an outpouring of derision. Perhaps, they should start by measuring their own responses.
keith_correa
Well-Known Member
Your brush strokes are too broad. I think that's unfair to the "fraternity". Many of them are but that's true of many forums including the big daddy of them all DIYA!
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