Objectivity vs Subjectivity

[Enkay78]

Feel free to disagree @Enkay78
I must confess I am not entirely clear what you are disagreeing with.
Some/all of the examples you mention seem to actually support what I was getting at.
Feel free to agree too

The last line is not specifically intended to you. It just a reminder to others, as we are engaging, specifically to those who disagree or will disagree with my view

I mean like some will say what’s price for passion.

 

[arj]

That variables are actually some of the most flouted pseudoscience and myths.

Just because we are less exposed to the many years of research and real data of audio....we, as consumers tend to believe by peer persuasion of subjective pushers and the vested lobby of the audiophile industry.

The science and objective measurements are very clear and the specifics have been hunted, studied and applied. These have been the rock solid foundation from which today we are having such electronics with SOTA performance. The audio chips ESS, AKM have been innovated and engineered with objective variables.

We have also progressed from analog to digital.

One feels the chaffs of vested interest needs to be removed. End users like us should start seeing the industry with some logic and rationale.

I mean it's mind boggling how cables are priced unlike the network and PC industry. Just look at the price of interconnects. And the thrust for power conditioners.

And off course how much room acoustics is how much for end user.

Even though my income allows me to buy a 37 lakh Mark Levinson 50 anniversary amp, I know I will never buy such. I value my money more than a 20-30 kg archaic technology amp which may measures just equally (engineered for the physics of electronics) with a Rs 20k Class D amp with SOTA measurements (?)

Semi rant. I agree to disagree

True. even every resistor and capacitor , driver as well as vacuum tube in good equipment has been engineered and manufactured to measured specs and precision.

 

[raghupb]

@Enkay78
What is "State Of The Art" when it comes to individual senses?

Now for the "I" rant
Touch - I don't get tickled as much as others do (Am I missing out SOTA touch?)
Taste - I prefer less salt in my food as compared to my family (SOTA taste missing?)
Sight - I prefer yellow lighting in certain situations (even though white LEDs are SOTA)
Smell - I can't stand the smell of insect spray (even though they kill bugs, SOTA sprays)
Hearing - I like my music to sound a particular way (even if it is not SOTA)

"Consumer audio" has it's facts and myths. Each individual defines what is fact and what is myth.
That's why there is an industry around consumer audio (or anything actually).
While measurements are relevant (not important), the appeal to the senses trumps it even if there are imperfections.

BTW, you mentioned this in an earlier post "the way the artist intended it to sound"
Most electric guitar guys are fanatical about some tube-based distortion box. Why?

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Vineethkumar01]

At least from the point of view of making speakers, measurements are very important in the design process to make sure that some fundamental parameters are taken care of properly which will eventually translate to better end user experience depending on room acoustics. A set of electromechanical transducers manufactured to meet a set of specs connected together by a set of electronic components put into a cabinet based on fundamental principles in acoustics. It is not based on myths and someone's whims and fantasies. It is deeply rooted in science.

Does it mean that subjective opinions should be trashed? Never. Subjective opinions have their own (important) place as the purpose of the product is to suite the tastes and preferences of the end users. This is where the psychological and psycho-acoustical factors come into play. The extent of their influence depends upon wealth, demographics, personal tastes and God knows what else. Because human beings are incredibly complex to comprehend. Every company worth its salt knows this and tries to "achieve a balance" whatever that may be according to them at the price points they are targeting. I personally have no opinions regarding the "deep rooted conspiracies" and "personal agendas" that some companies seemingly try to push on to the customers.

For some masala, here are a few opinions about using "science" and "speaker measurements" by an honest and internationally renowned expert in speaker making (Kimmosto is the author of VituixCAD software):
1) https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ngful-speaker-measurements.29768/post-1042699
2) https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ngful-speaker-measurements.29768/post-1042968
For more such things, one can search ASR forum for Kimmosto's profile and have a laugh reading his fights with Amir. Is Kimmosto biased? Definitely

Objectivity vs subjectivity threads like this often end up as good "popcorn threads" as in most cases there is no real "knowledge" gained/shared since human beings (including me ) are incredibly biased with whatever little knowledge we have. It is easier to try and move a mountain than try to convince a every single person among bunch of audiophiles that both objectivity and subjectivity have their fair share in audio. To every argument raised by someone we try to come up with a counter argument to prove that our opinion is the correct one.

Have fun.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

True. even every resistor and capacitor , driver as well as vacuum tube in good equipment has been engineered and manufactured to measured specs and precision.

Important part is does it mean audible difference ? Otherwise reliability wise it’s good to have parts of good quality. But at that sky high price I would just buy something cheaper which does the same and use it until it dies

 

[raghupb]

<snip>

Objectivity vs subjectivity threads like this often end up as good "popcorn threads" as in most cases there is no real "knowledge" gained/shared since human beings (including me ) are incredibly biased with whatever little knowledge we have and it is easier to try and move a mountain than try to convince a every single person among bunch of audiophiles that both objectivity and subjectivity have their fare share in audio.<snip>

Popcorn has it's place in the known universe.
Your sentences are too longs. Spare the ones on this forum who are drunk, please

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[prem]

The total global hifi market is approx 11.5 billion USD. And Bose is 4 billion USD

Sennheiser is nearly 1 billion USD

I am wondering if Bose and Sennheiser ever measured anything which indicated perfection.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

The total global hifi market is approx 11.5 billion USD. And Bose is 4 billion USD

I am wondering if Bose ever measured anything

But at the same time “audiophiles” hate Bose. That’s the hypocrisy.

 

[prem]

I don’t hate Bose. I have huge respect for them. They know what the market wants.

From what I know they do a lot of consumer research, understand what kind of sound appeals to the consumers and then incorporate it in their design. They use measurements to tweak the sound to consumers liking. This is very different from having the ideal measurements.

 

[raghupb]

ASR has figured in this discussion quite a bit. They are a site that measures what is out there.
Measurement, by definition, is controlled. Humans are uncontrolled beasts.
So, where is the middle ground?

Disclaimer:
Most of what I have at home does not measure well.
Does it sound good. Yes!! To me and a few other folks who have visited home.
How good? Get the popcorn (and whiskey) and we'll discuss

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[prem]

In high end audio, to me Nelson Pass is an excellent example of how he uses measurements to tailor the sound for his market. In some amps he introduces second order harmonics. In some third order harmonics. He knows what he’s doing. That’s how one should use measurements. You find out who your consumers are, what they like and then use science and measurements to engineer products for your consumer.

All good audio designers understand measurements. Are we saying Luxman and Accuphase can’t design an amp that measures perfectly as per ASR. Of course they can. But it’s not what their market wants. If there was a huge market for amps with perfect measurements, everybody would be doing it. Unfortunately that’s not the case.

 

[raghupb]

In high end audio, to me Nelson Pass is an excellent example of how he uses measurements to tailor the sound for his market. In some amps he introduces second order harmonics. In some third order harmonics. He knows what he’s doing. That’s how one should use measurements. You find out who your consumers are, what they like and then use science and measurements to engineer products for your consumer.

H2 is good. Euphonics or whatever. The brain likes it!!
Measures poorly though.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

In high end audio, to me Nelson Pass is an excellent example of how he uses measurements to tailor the sound for his market. In some amps he introduces second order harmonics. In some third order harmonics. He knows what he’s doing. That’s how one should use measurements. You find out who your consumers are, what they like and then use science and measurements to engineer products for your consumer.

“it’s not a bug, it’s a feature”

 

[Bloom@83]

To complete subjectivists on the thread who profess that measurements don’t mean anything, how do they buy blind then ?

 

[raghupb]

To complete subjectivists on the thread who profess that measurements don’t mean anything, how do they buy blind then ?

RayBan eyeglasses (or equivalent stuff for ears)
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[prem]

Unknowingly or knowingly, we are all buying equipment basis some measurement. Some are looking for a high s/n ratio. Some are looking for ultra high bandwidth. Some prefer second order harmonics, etc, etc.

 

[Passive_audio_enthusiast]

Unknowingly or knowingly, we are all buying equipment basis some measurement. Some are looking for a high s/n ratio. Some are looking for ultra high bandwidth. Some prefer second order harmonics, etc, etc.

Imo, measurements are needed to know how it sounds. The best measured product only guarantees accurate sound. But if that’s the the listeners preference, definitely it will be bad to his ears.

Also, even with the best measured dac amp and speakers the room messes up again with the signal.with speakers, it’s not enough to buy something which has just flat frequency alone. Imo, even a messy response is ok, if it has distortions kept well below audible range to apply room correction. Most folks don’t consider distortion figures of speakers.

With amps and dacs better measurements guarantee accuracy.

 

[prem]

Passive audio enthusiast, pl understand you belong to a set of consumers who want perfect measurements for accuracy because you like a neutral, accurate sound. Nothing wrong with that.

Like you there will be another set of customers who prefer a euphonic sound. For these guys there are designers who will use measurements to provide them the euphonic sound.

Similarly there might be a huge base which wants a mid bass bump. So you have products designed to provide that.

Nobody is right or wrong here. Everybody has their own preference and one needs to respect that.

For example I know someone who has the EMT JPA 66 phono. It’s a superbly measuring phono amp. And it’s dead neutral and transparent. It gives a mid hall perspective sound. Now this friend likes a more upfront sound. So he bought himself a little euphonic sounding phono. Now he likes what he hears.

 

[Analogous]

But at the same time “audiophiles” hate Bose. That’s the hypocrisy.

How can you hate them when they come up with products like this!

https://www.amazon.in/Bose-Frames-Audio-Sunglasses-Alto/dp/B07X6HTXP2?th=1

 

[RajithKumar]

Due to audioscsiencereview’s bad reviews on Hegel, naim, regas and so on the resale value on these stuff has taken a huge hit. And day by day more and more people are switching camps/getting educated about what to look for in audio. So, consider getting something which is decent in measurements and sounds good to your ears at the same time to avoid disappointment in few years. Colored sound would give an immediate satisfaction but once you start noticing that amps filter in everything you hear you would want something different. A transparent amp on the other hand would be boring at first, but once you start noticing the differences in different recording styles of different artists without filtering by the amp, you would be forgetting more About the gear. Over the years, I have used lot of hifi targeted amps like atoll, gold note, holfi, creek and several niche brands. Every time when you hear it for the first weeks you will be flattered, then the excitement dies as that particular coloring is intrusive to the music all the time. It used to be easy to flip them when you don’t like it but now if you put any of them on sale,anyone who looks for a used amp who knows how to “google search” would land in the audiosciencereview’s page would be reluctant to buy them regardless of their positive reviews. Nobody wants a product which is bashed by 100s of random guys on internet.

They say end of the day, trust your ears but I would say, trust your ears only after you do your homework. Otherwise the moment you discover some of the flaws, then there is no way back.

I believe measurements are just a tool for evaluation ,it should not be a final deciding factor.What sounds best to you ,based on your likings, make decisions.