Opinions on Acoustic Portrait's new Swara Pre and Power Amps

[Thad E Ginathom]

Alright, then why a comparison with nwavguy's DAC and cynical comment about APs pricing?

Please regard it as a very mild cynicism, and not specifically directed at AP. In fact, my post was quite appreciative of AP, and also appreciative of why a DAC should be considered a major and important part of a system. The question was if any DAC can be worth this much. You didn't notice that there are sound cards this expensive that I would buy, if having the cash, which is an implied yes... but tempered with the comment that it might not really be necessary. But then, what's necessary? Even if I believed it was not justified, it would hardly be mudslinging: there are lots of things in the world that I don't believe are justified on a cost basis, and I still covet some of them.

There are lots of products. Mention of any of them is, as far as I am concerned, for the purpose of illustration only.

No, not at all. But I would neither consider it unworthy of its price tag without listening.

Well, quite, and I'm not doing that. On the other hand, if I buy in the 8,000 to 16,000 range on an experimental basis, and am unhappy with the result, it would be an expensive mistake, but cheaper, by far, than some of my financial decisions!

 

[BLASTO]

No, not at all. But I would neither consider it unworthy of its price tag without listening.

Now, that is a real guniuine concern.. I agree.
But at this price range, people will not be willing to take risks.

If they had a range in the <20k price range competing with the international brands claiming 60k for, I 'would' have been open to experimentation.

 

[BLASTO]

@Blasto,

There are many audio brands around the world that does not do mass-marketing or indulge in the typical marketing exercises that most main stream brands do. I can give you at least a dozen such examples straightaway. There is a reason why they do not do this. They rely on word of mouth promotion. Words that come from actual users. AP is one of them.

To experience these brands, the potential user has to come forward and take the necessary steps. With brands like these, there is also the additional effort of understanding their philosophy and making sure they really want to go for it. Brands like these want to filter out non-serious buyers by keeping these hurdles. It is a free world after all.

You can address issues like these by a simple email to AP. However, while discussing quality and value for money aspects of the brand, there need to be factual information and presented in the right perspective. Otherwise it will be just another mudslinging exercise.

Iam saying the same thing as what you are saying..
1) International brands are not not their competetors so no use even comparing them
2) People buying stuff after extensive auditioning are not their customers. (But sadly these comprise most people who are serious buyers).

The problem is they look for people who are serious hi end buyers but are relying on hear say for purchasing hiend equipments. (An oxymoron IMO)

I had problem a problem with your below statement.

There is a general difficulty among people to accept an Indian hi fi product that costs close to six figures, performance etc notwithstanding.

I still have.

Taking into account your own post that I quoted first listing the hurdles/difficulty placed in the way to accept their product, there is nothing "Indian-ness" which has to do with the result mentioned in your post I quoted second.

If there were a U.S hifi brand selling only in mumbai (believe there are lots), they will get the same treatment from the general public.

 

[Oakley]

inconsequential looking as I/Cs and speaker cables. Could you explain what are the other equipment in the chain.

Cables from Nordost Norse2, Audiolab 8200, cdq and monoblocs, Atc active's.
capt sir, i am not a cable guy and i don't believe in them

Is it so, news to me! Where?

they claim

I have heard their DAC side by side with a very acclaimed DAC 'Shigaraki' and found that both excel in their own areas. Shigaraki excelled in bringing out the subtlest of nuances of the music whereas AP's mid range was so fluid that you feel you are tasting an exquisite swiss chocolate.

capt sir, i have not heard the shikari DAC, so no comment's.on practical note, i have compared with Audio lab 8200 series, no comparison, audio lab is far ahead of AP, price point Audio lab is priced lesser than AP.

Could you elaborate which all DAC's you have compared them with?

Audio lab 8200 series, i don't want to compare them with any hi end dac, looking at price point performance ratio

The price point of any equipment needs to taken into consideration keeping in mind its performance.

Agree with you

Oakley,Can you please let us know what your observations were ? What was the setup ? What did you compare it with ? Was any other forum members present while you were doing this comparison ? Did you buy it ? Somebodys house ?

AP doesn't justify price point, they were auditioned by myself for purchase, but they didn't impress me.my house, i don't rely on others listening, for my purchase.

Siva is also a music connoisieur and a hindustani music buff (with a virtual Whos who of performers who know him and have visited him and he has voiced his equipment around ) His products have a certain philosophy..of microdynamics and transparency and have come across after years of refinement of design.

equipment should be dynamic to all types, not limited to particular Genre.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Blasto, no one is asking anyone to experiment. It only takes a little effort to contact the manufacturer, understand his philosophy and ask him if a demo is possible. I know at least three audiophiles who have got Acoustic Portrait products shipped to their homes (they live in other cities) on a return policy basis. Of course they committed to buy it if they liked it.
This is a very common model in the US, mostly popular among small hobbyist manufacturer. Odyssey audio is one of them btw. It works there because there is trust among them. I dont see it here.

 

[square_wave]

@Blasto,

They rely ONLY on serious audition and their competitors ARE international brands costing twice. AP welcomes people who want a serious audition from what I understand. I know of none who has bought AP based on hearsay.

They are the complete antithesis of your understanding.

Like I mentioned earlier, many of the audiophiles who I know who use the AP DAC are extremely serious listeners who can afford many times over. Very serious 2 channel audiophiles who are in the game for many decades.

On a related note, look at Prem who has chosen Virens amp for his particular setup. Another person who is into a completely different trip in audio may not chose Virens amp. Prem has a setup which can EXTRACT what virens amp can offer. There is a philosophy behind the product. So all this need to be seen in the right perspective.

In one conversation with the AP designer, i came to understand this ;
AP gear will shine only if you own gear which does not create a bottleneck downstream or upstream. Their philosophy is based on designs which are full bandwidth and which do not compress anything. A system capable of full bandwidth can be made to create magic with any AP product. It is a philosophy which needs to be understood and experienced before one makes comments.

So one were to insert an AP dac into a system which is very mainstream, eg ; amp and speakers which are manipulated designs created to do fashionable thin pin point imaging and artificial punchy bass, the DAC may not really work with it. The people who own such gear also look for many other things which are adjectives fuelled by audio magazines.

AP wants to clearly steer clear of such customers. There is a reason behind their marketing philosophy

 

[square_wave]

Audio lab 8200 series, i don't want to compare them with any hi end dac, looking at price point performance ratio

Is this the model ?
M-DAC Series audiolab

The M Dac ?

This must be a true gem then. Is there a possibility for a home audition ? Who deals in these Dacs ? What price do these sell for ?

And, can you please elaborate a bit more on the actual review ?

1. More information about the system in which this was done ? The speakers, Amplification ?
2. What were your actual observations ?
3. Where was this done ? Who owns this Thyaga DAC which you did the comparison with ? Is this the model ?
Acoustic Portrait

 

[soulforged]

Rant Alert!

AP welcomes people who want a serious audition from what I understand.

Well...several years ago, a man, barely stepping into the quagmire that is our hobby, visited the said maker with every intention of buying his products (amp & speakers) after a due audition. He held the maker in very high regards and almost felt like being in the presence of a celibrity. He hoped to learn a lot from the interaction and gain a lot from the products he'd purchase. 2 or 3 very basic questions later, he was gently but firmly and quite literally pushed out and asked to return when he is 30+ and has started listening to hindustani.

No points for guessing who I am talking about...

So one were to insert an AP dac into a system which is very mainstream, eg ; amp and speakers which are manipulated designs created to do fashionable thin pin point imaging and artificial punchy bass, the DAC may not really work with it. The people who own such gear also look for many other things which are adjectives fuelled by audio magazines.

AP wants to clearly steer clear of such customers. There is a reason behind their marketing philosophy

You probably have hit the nail on the head with the last statement.

Audiophile snobbery notwithstanding, whatever the philosophy is here, it doesn't seem to be about making money by selling more (business) or spreading the good word (and music) around (altruism). There seems to be a carefully studied aloofness butressed with lofty ideals to place oneself apart from the proletariat.

From a business POV, it does not make much sense to me. It appears the pricing is with the thought of positioning the product as 'not for mere mortals' and to make up for not selling in numbers.

But then what do I know...the products probably use expensive parts and SCM rules applied, probably would justify the price...

 

[keith_correa]

Well...several years ago, a man, barely stepping into the quagmire that is our hobby, visited the said maker with every intention of buying his products (amp & speakers) after a due audition. He held the maker in very high regards and almost felt like being in the presence of a celibrity. He hoped to learn a lot from the interaction and gain a lot from the products he'd purchase. 2 or 3 very basic questions later, he was gently but firmly and quite literally pushed out and asked to return when he is 30+ and has started listening to hindustani.

Now THAT is disgusting!!! Is Hindustani the be all and end all of music according to the manufacturer? Any particular preference - tarana, dhrupad or khyal
And according to the manufacturer, does ones hearing "mature" after age 30 - which would enable one to "better" appreciate the said manufacturers equipment? Supreme arrogance. Sheesh!!!!

 

[square_wave]

Rant Alert!



Well...several years ago, a man, barely stepping into the quagmire that is our hobby, visited the said maker with every intention of buying his products (amp & speakers) after a due audition. He held the maker in very high regards and almost felt like being in the presence of a celibrity. He hoped to learn a lot from the interaction and gain a lot from the products he'd purchase. 2 or 3 very basic questions later, he was gently but firmly and quite literally pushed out and asked to return when he is 30+ and has started listening to hindustani.

No points for guessing who I am talking about...



You probably have hit the nail on the head with the last statement.

Audiophile snobbery notwithstanding, whatever the philosophy is here, it doesn't seem to be about making money by selling more (business) or spreading the good word (and music) around (altruism). There seems to be a carefully studied aloofness butressed with lofty ideals to place oneself apart from the proletariat.

From a business POV, it does not make much sense to me. It appears the pricing is with the thought of positioning the product as 'not for mere mortals' and to make up for not selling in numbers.

But then what do I know...the products probably use expensive parts and SCM rules applied, probably would justify the price...

What you said is correct soul forged. I completely agree with you on this. The studied aloofness by the brand actually distances many audiophiles. There are few who really like their design philosophy and take the next step and end up buying them.

It is very difficult to comment about customer philosophies of any brand without going through what they gone through in their journey. I am sure there is a valid reason. It would be inappropriate and encroachment into private zones if I were to comment about it.

 

[soulforged]

It is very difficult to comment about customer philosophies of any brand without going through what they gone through in their journey. I am sure there is a valid reason. It would be inappropriate and encroachment into private zones if I were to comment about it.

Completely with you on this. But as customers, do we have a right to be privy to the phlosophy? Or are we supposed to 'take it or leave it'? In the absence of clarity one is bound the hazard guesses, after all it does play a part in the buying decision...

 

[BLASTO]

Hi Square wave, you contradict yourself bluntly. I dont understand. I just mentioned that they do not have even single room demos in metros, rest are all what you said.

@Blasto,

There are many audio brands around the world that does not do mass-marketing or indulge in the typical marketing exercises that most main stream brands do. I can give you at least a dozen such examples straightaway. There is a reason why they do not do this. They rely on word of mouth promotion. Words that come from actual users. AP is one of them.

@Blasto,

They rely ONLY on serious audition and their competitors ARE international brands costing twice. AP welcomes people who want a serious audition from what I understand. I know of none who has bought AP based on hearsay.

They are the complete antithesis of your understanding.

^^^ Contradiction.

As I have mentioned earlier, they don't provide extensive demo support in all metros. It is not a go and demo and pick up kind of place.

They don't provide comparative demo with similarly priced components side by side or otherwise. I dont know of any showroom where I can demo them besides brands in their price range. Only compative demo done is apparently during the HFV meet alongside genelac and looks like people prefered genelac more though they are more costly.

What you portray as 'philosophy' I say it as 'attitude'. I would bother least to understad the philosophy of a seller when Iam PAYing MY money to get the sound I like. Apparently Iam not their intended buyer.

As I mentioned, their current exposure will only get them buyers from bangalore and around or some die hard fans from far. Having a great product in that sense is irrelevent without demos.

 

[keith_correa]

What you portray as 'philosophy' I say it as 'attitude'.

+1

Obviously they have never heard of the "philosophy" - "The Customer is king. How do you talk to the King?".

 

[square_wave]

They don't provide comparative demo with similarly priced components side by side or otherwise. I dont know of any showroom where I can demo them besides brands in their price range. Only compative demo done is apparently during the HFV meet alongside genelac and looks like people prefered genelac more though they are more costly.

.

I agree with you Blasto.

These two things are not available anywhere in the world with these kinds of brands. There are many such brands. Take a look at audiocircle.com to see some good examples. There are many brands out there that do not even have a website. It is their choice to be like that. You will never see their product in a retail showroom nor will they offer to demo it against a competitor publicly.

I have once seen such a brand which sends out a product for demo across the country. It reaches a metro, a good number of people demo it and sends it to the next metro. Maybe one should suggest such a thing to AP. It will help many people.

 

[square_wave]

Completely with you on this. But as customers, do we have a right to be privy to the phlosophy? Or are we supposed to 'take it or leave it'? In the absence of clarity one is bound the hazard guesses, after all it does play a part in the buying decision...

Soulforged,

Their design philosophy is on their new website

 

[iaudio]

Soulforged your experience is indeed unfortunate. I'm disappointed you got such a treatment.
Siva is not the most outgoing person. In my experience he takes time to get comfortable or even talk with people. But I have had a pretty good experience with him and AP/Corrson, despite being a noob in hi fi/hindustani.

As for the the question of distribution, how many of our Indian brands have that kind of a network. AP, Lyrita, Audire etc all are based in their home city and do not have branches all over the nation. But they welcome audition in their demo room, or even send stuff out for home demo.

For tht matter,there are lots of people who have bought Emotiva gear without any audition.
I am sure AP can improve its act, but as far as sound quality goes, imho, they are doing things right.

 

[captrajesh]

as customers, do we have a right to be privy to the phlosophy? Or are we supposed to 'take it or leave it'? In the absence of clarity one is bound the hazard guesses, after all it does play a part in the buying decision...

This may help: In Conversation with Mr. Siva (Acoustic Portrait, India)

 

[Oakley]

Is this the model ?
M-DAC Series audiolab

The M Dac ?

This must be a true gem then. Is there a possibility for a home audition ? Who deals in these Dacs ? What price do these sell for ?

And, can you please elaborate a bit more on the actual review ?

1. More information about the system in which this was done ? The speakers, Amplification ?
2. What were your actual observations ?
3. Where was this done ? Who owns this Thyaga DAC which you did the comparison with ? Is this the model ?
Acoustic Portrait

i own Audio Lab 8200 series full rig. The CDQ, DQ, MONO, M-DAC.
they are well engineered products.i got my rig from abroad hence will not mention the price on forum.

my test is basic, active speakers dac and server.

who sell's in India, you must do homework

my observations, Audio lab is far ahead in all departments when compared to AP.

Who owns thiyaga, does it matter?

if you are in around bellary area you can audition my rig along with others

any other info over PM

Oak

 

[Oakley]

As for the the question of distribution, how many of our Indian brands have that kind of a network. AP, Lyrita, Audire etc all are based in their home city and do not have branches all over the nation. But they welcome audition in their demo room.

On business POV, the above mentioned brands don't have commercial production,hence they would be expensive to be sold with distribution network.

first of all most of these brand's don't even have a proper website for getting info, it's a pity.

Oak

 

[sidvee]

All things aside, the biggest concern I have while buying higher end equipment other than SQ is what is the resale value going to be after 2-3years time frame. unfortunately a lot of boutique products depreciate well below the 50-55 percent range, which at- least for me is a deal breaker. Case in point - Modwright equipment in US. Dan Wright is a respected mfr. but his products are somewhat boutique and relatively highly priced, but are sold for a song on Agon and elsewhere. So now I try to keep that in mind as well when I buy. I would like to buy well reviewed products that have some brand value. Do not want to be the early adapter or the discoverer who eats the depreciation.
Cheers,
Sid