Petition to re-launch Technics SL1200/SL1210 series turntables!

[rsud]

the sl1200 series were quartz locked, so accuracy should not be dependent on the mains frequency

Quartz lock was/is a gimmick for the masses. A motor constantly slowing and pickup up speed introduces noise (platter resonance, motor turbulence, etc).

Stay away if you take vinyl playback seriously. best is a belt drive turntable.

 

[jls001]

best is a belt drive turntable.

Really?

I think different drives have their respective strengths. And weaknesses.

 

[Saket]

Quartz lock was/is a gimmick for the masses. A motor constantly slowing and pickup up speed introduces noise (platter resonance, motor turbulence, etc).

Stay away if you take vinyl playback seriously. best is a belt drive turntable.

If the quartz lock TTs were constantly slowing & picking up speed, then the wow & flutter of most quartz lock DD TTs would have been awful. In fact, they are among the best techniques to play vinyls at the perfect speed, irrespective of the stylus weight and drag or even the weight of the vinyl itself. The heavy platter keeps the speeds constant with its inertia.

There could be other good points of a belt drive TT over the DD or even the Idler drives, but the reverse for it is also true. All types of drive methods have their advantages & disadvantages. There is nothing like you need to have to have a belt drive if you take the vinyls seriously. In fact legendary players like Garrard 301/401 are all idler drives. I need not say more about the speed accuracy of Technics DDs with quartz locks.

 

[reubensm]

Technics DD TTs have dead-accurate speed. If you notice wow and flutter by any chance, its got to be because the TT is not maintained properly. I have listened to belt drives and idler drivers but the accuracy of a Technics DD cannot be matched.

As Saket rightly mentioned, each drive method has its advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I prefer the Technics DD as its so easy to setup and use and always performs perfectly well. However, having grown up with idlers, I am attempting to go back to my roots with the 401 and L75. After all, at the end of the day, despite having both these legends on the rack, my Technics SL3200 is still listed No.1 on my signature

 

[akd]

I have owned and used only Pro-ject Debut III and Technics 1210 MKII. From my experience all I can say is I don't know how good this TT is when compared to more expensive ones, but I will not hesitate to buy this again at around 50K INR again. This TT has robustness, fidelity, stability, versatility which is more than sufficient for a first-level yet not insipid listerner like me. Hope Panasonic will respond

 

[Hiten]

Quartz is only reference to which speed controller referes to to stabilize the speed. I think a heavy platter with inertia will overcome minute speed variations, nullifying or reduce drastically the requirement of speed controller to make changes in speed. Though all motors (Belt/idler/dd will benefit with regulation. (For ex. linn valhalla).
Regards.

 

[hildebrand]

Interesting. signed the petition. Will the company take notice?

 

[rsud]

Really?

I think different drives have their respective strengths. And weaknesses.

Really.

There is no motor (direct drive / DD) that has a quiet bearing for use in a turntable.
All direct drive turntables suffer from noise being transmitted from the motor to the platter.

A decent bearing can be placed in a low priced belt drive turntable. This is huge all other factors being equal.

A recent release of a high-end DD turntable from VPI is intriguing and may solve this issue for DD motors but it costs $12,000 USA.

A quiet bearing on motor is certainly not the case in a low end turntable.

Again, this applies if you take vinyl playback seriously. The choice of a low priced DD versus a low priced rega belt drive turntable is obvious if fidelity to the music on a record is the first priority.

Its also why direct drive is pretty much absent on high-end turntables. Except for the recent VPI release.

 

[rsud]

Quartz is only reference to which speed controller referes to to stabilize the speed. I think a heavy platter with inertia will overcome minute speed variations, nullifying or reduce drastically the requirement of speed controller to make changes in speed. Though all motors (Belt/idler/dd will benefit with regulation. (For ex. linn valhalla).
Regards.

Nope from what I hear.

The heavy platter picks up minute variations in speed as resonances in the platter which affect the noise floor of the turntable cartridge when its "reading" the grooves. This on top of the noise from poor bearings on the DD motor. On a decent high-fi system the benefits of belt drive vs equal priced DD drive can be easily heard.

I made the switch to belt drive turntables after listening tests 20 years ago when I first got into high-end with my first entry level high-end system.

 

[Saket]

Nope from what I hear.

The heavy platter picks up minute variations in speed as resonances in the platter which affect the noise floor of the turntable cartridge when its "reading" the grooves. This on top of the noise from poor bearings on the DD motor. On a decent high-fi system the benefits of belt drive vs equal priced DD drive can be easily heard.

I made the switch to belt drive turntables after listening tests 20 years ago when I first got into high-end with my first entry level high-end system.

If you can hear the speed variances in a good DD turntable, then you must be able to hear the speed variance in loud passages in a belt drive system owing to its inherent tendency to have lower torque. And then how do you rate them to be the only type of drive suitable for playing vinyls seriously?
I use a DD Technics and as Reuben said, the speed is as accurate as if life depended on it. Dead on spot. I am aware of the disadvantages of DD systems, but speed variation is not one of them.

The heavy platter picks up minute variations in speed as resonances in the platter which affect the noise floor of the turntable cartridge when its "reading" the grooves.

Honestly, I could not make out what you want to say here. 'Minute speed variations' and 'resonance' are completely different things, unrelated to each other.
As I said, each drive system has its own pros & cons. Glad that you have found your pick, but there are some serious audiophiles who have chosen Technics 1200s or Garrard 301/401 for audio nirvana.

 

[jls001]

There is no motor (direct drive / DD) that has a quiet bearing for use in a turntable.
All direct drive turntables suffer from noise being transmitted from the motor to the platter.

A decent bearing can be placed in a low priced belt drive turntable. This is huge all other factors being equal.

Let us compare the peak wow and peak flutter of the Technics SL1200 (since you seem to have a low opinion of it) and the Rega RP3 (since it is the mid-priced model in their line-up and you have specifically mentioned the Rega name), as these parameters have direct bearing on the quietness of the motor and the tolerance of the platter bearing:

Technics SL1200: 0.01%/0.01% (source: Technics SL-1200 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Rega RP3: 0.09%/0.02% (source: http://www.rega.dk/produkter_files/pladespillere/rp3_test_hifi_news.pdf)

The Technics has 8.8 times better peak wow figure and twice better peak flutter figure. And it wasn't even designed to be a "hifi" player for the home.

Again, this applies if you take vinyl playback seriously. The choice of a low priced DD versus a low priced rega belt drive turntable is obvious if fidelity to the music on a record is the first priority.

I haven't heard any Rega turntable so I am not competent to argue or support your contention, but I do believe many cheaper direct drives were also quite good, both on measurable technical parameters as well as on subjective listening impressions.

But I agree with you on one front - quartz speed control takes away the drive of DDs.

And just for info, modern belt drives tend to have large and heavy platters so that it has higher momentum to prevent speed variations due to stylus drag and also when the program material becomes complex. Small, quiet motors as used in belt drives have to give some somewhere and that's in the low torque. Direct drives excel in that department (e.g. Technics SP10/II has so much torque that it cannot be stopped with a finger pressing down on a spinning platter! and will reach 33-1/3 rpm speed in half a revolution). But despite that it doesn't have the musical drive of a torquey idler drive which is not blessed with fancy quartz-controlled speed regulation. But an idler tend to have noisy motor that needs some serious damping.

My point being: each type has its strength and weaknesses. We choose based on what aspect of musical reproduction is important to us.

Listen to a Technics SL1200. There is little not to like about its sound. Its supposedly "noisy" motor doesn't make some audible irritating noises. Or give a vintage idler a try. You will be amazed by the slam and the drive in the music.

 

[reignofchaos]

Direct Drives aren't bad if implemented well - look at the EMT tables or Brinkmann Bardo/Oasis or the latest VPI Classic DD. All of these are serious high end tables that sound fantastic.

Direct drives got their bad reputation because of the original cheap japanese DDs which sounded like crap. I've not heard a properly setup Technics DD ever so would love to some day. Whatever I've heard has had some issue or the other.

 

[Hiten]

Lets not mix things with speed variation and resonance. Micro speed variations are not an issue with heavy platter. I have seen platters moving good 10/12 revolutions even after turning off the TT. As for resonance. I guess micro speed variation resulting vibration will/should not create any resonance in the platter. A material amplifies vibrations if it is same as its natural frequency. Like this.
After a certain point of excellent engineering it doesn't matter if its an idler, belt or DD. Just what one prefers.
Regards.

 

[Record Player]

Very well said guys. Belt Drives are the best TTs....I don't think so. I aint getting into the nitty-gritty but I tell you, for someone who has got 2 of the 1200s and having heard a few belt drives, the 1200s beat them hands down in my opinion. Speed accuracy cannot be beaten on these at least in their very category of comparison.

But then of course, there is the element of personal listening tastes when it comes to DD,BD and ID.

 

[kuruvilajacob]

Very well said guys. Belt Drives are the best TTs....I don't think so. I aint getting into the nitty-gritty but I tell you, for someone who has got 2 of the 1200s and having heard a few belt drives, the 1200s beat them hands down in my opinion. Speed accuracy cannot be beaten on these at least in their very category of comparison.

But then of course, there is the element of personal listening tastes when it comes to DD,BD and ID.

It's all a personal listening taste. I have among my DD players Technics SL-1200 with TPA tone arm and Technics SP-25 with AT 1501 tone arm, among belt Drives Linn Sondeck with Linn Ittok Tone arm and Thorens 125 with SME 3012 tone arm and for Idlers two Garrard 301s and Lenco L 75. Not considering any technical factors, I have played the same records on all three type of TTs and I must admit that the Linn is warm and with pleasant mids while Garrards have a slam which leaves anyone stunned while the Direct Drives delivers the music efficiently clean but lacks warmth and slam. Since I like my music with warmth and depth in mids, I prefer the belt drives and idlers over Direct Drives. The only exception in a Direct Drive is in Micro Seikie which sounds more like a Garrard 301 while retaining the warmth in the mids. This is my personal opinion and I welcome any HFV members for an audition and all genuinely interested are welcome to come .

 

[Record Player]

Absolutely Sir. I am eagerly waiting for my 401 to be setup. Cant wait for that slam .

BTW, dint know that you had a Linn Sondek in your rig. Dint get to audition that during my visit to your place.

 

[reubensm]

It's all a personal listening taste. I have among my DD players Technics SL-1200 with TPA tone arm and Technics SP-25 with AT 1501 tone arm, among belt Drives Linn Sondeck with Linn Ittok Tone arm and Thorens 125 with SME 3012 tone arm and for Idlers two Garrard 301s and Lenco L 75. Not considering any technical factors, I have played the same records on all three type of TTs and I must admit that the Linn is warm and with pleasant mids while Garrards have a slam which leaves anyone stunned while the Direct Drives delivers the music efficiently clean but lacks warmth and slam. Since I like my music with warmth and depth in mids, I prefer the belt drives and idlers over Direct Drives. The only exception in a Direct Drive is in Micro Seikie which sounds more like a Garrard 301 while retaining the warmth in the mids. This is my personal opinion and I welcome any HFV members for an audition and all genuinely interested are welcome to come .

+1 to this opinion. I have noticed the same for DDs and IDs

However I am not able to comment on the BDs as most of the BDs I've come across or listened to were low to mid-end and my experience with them has made me extremely allergic to them

One issue was speed variation due to belt-stretch.

 

[kuruvilajacob]

Absolutely Sir. I am eagerly waiting for my 401 to be setup. Cant wait for that slam .

BTW, dint know that you had a Linn Sondek in your rig. Dint get to audition that during my visit to your place.

Yes, I have a Linn Sondek with Linn Ittok 4 arm and with Goldring 1012 cart. You have not listened to the Micro Seikie either. I have modified the Dual 1019 also . So please make a trip and let's enjoy some good time. You can also listen to the fabulous Nakamichi 1000 Tri Tracer.

 

[Record Player]

Yes, I have a Linn Sondek with Linn Ittok 4 arm and with Goldring 1012 cart. You have not listened to the Micro Seikie either. I have modified the Dual 1019 also . So please make a trip and let's enjoy some good time. You can also listen to the fabulous Nakamichi 1000 Tri Tracer.

always wanted to audition the LP12. Micro Seikie also pending. Surely need to plan a visit to Vinyl Bungalow sometime soon.

 

[kuruvilajacob]

Reuben,
When you listen to the sound reproduction of vintage Thorens 125 or Linn or AR, i am sure you will change you mind on BDs . These are strong doses to get over your allergy for belt Drives. In fact, I play Jim Reeves, Don Williams and the like only on Belt Drives. They sound better on them while a Pink Floyd album will sound best on Garrard 301.