Phono Preamp - which Model should I use if required

Audiolab 9000N
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jay

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Hi,

I have a Technics 1200 MK2 and Yamaha AX 496 Stereo Amplifier with Shure M97XE Cartridge.

The issue what I am facing is that the sound output which I get from the CD player connected to the same Amp,i am not getting the same from the TT. To get the same volume level I need to increase the volume knowb by 30% to 50%.

Do I need to install a Phono Preamp to increase the GAIN?
If so which models do you suggest?
 
your Yamaha AX496 should work well with the M97XE. I had this cart and gave it away in exchange for a NAD 3020 amp as I did not like its neutral sound. However having to crank up the volume to 50% is not a good sign, definitely something may be wrong. Hope your cart is wired correctly. Also is the stylus in good shape and clean? Please check your turntable tonearm calibration. Is the phonostage of your amp functional?

If you really want to venture out into the world of phonostages, Sachin's CNC phonostage should be good if you are ok with DIY. Otherwise, there are many many phonostages out there, which could suit your pocket. Cambridge, NAD, Rega and Thorens have products in the affordable range (assuming you are talking solid state). If you are into tubes, then Lyrita is a great option. If you are adventurous, a pre-used vintage NAD is a good bet. NAD amps used to have some heavenly phonostages back in the day.
 
reubensm said:
your Yamaha AX496 should work well with the M97XE. I had this cart and gave it away in exchange for a NAD 3020 amp as I did not like its neutral sound. However having to crank up the volume to 50% is not a good sign, definitely something may be wrong. Hope your cart is wired correctly. Also is the stylus in good shape and clean? Please check your turntable tonearm calibration. Is the phonostage of your amp functional?

If you really want to venture out into the world of phonostages, Sachin's CNC phonostage should be good if you are ok with DIY. Otherwise, there are many many phonostages out there, which could suit your pocket. Cambridge, NAD, Rega and Thorens have products in the affordable range (assuming you are talking solid state). If you are into tubes, then Lyrita is a great option. If you are adventurous, a pre-used vintage NAD is a good bet. NAD amps used to have some heavenly phonostages back in the day.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Thanks for the inputs.

I dn't think there is any problem with wiring,tone arm,calibration and stylus. All are in perfect order. Cranking upto 50% ,we'll I listen to music at high volume. And as signals from TT are weaker compared to CD player so the volume will always be low. And my TT is connected to Phonostage of Yamaha Amp only.

Yes I will go for a solid state phono amp preferably a branded one.
 
jay said:
Hi,

Thanks for the inputs.

I dn't think there is any problem with wiring,tone arm,calibration and stylus. All are in perfect order. Cranking upto 50% ,we'll I listen to music at high volume. And as signals from TT are weaker compared to CD player so the volume will always be low. And my TT is connected to Phonostage of Yamaha Amp only.

Yes I will go for a solid state phono amp preferably a branded one.
Click to expand...

Dada, there are various factors that are effecting the gain of your record output when compared to CD. One of them is definitely the gain of your Int. Amp's Phono stage which can be much lower than CD player's line level input(~1-1.2V). Secondly the output gain of Shure M97 is comparatively on lower side ~4mV(7mV for M44-7). So the resultant is lower gain than CD line. Even depending how the voltages are being measured, one cartridge manufacturer may specify a level of say 4mV at 1kHz, while another specifying 4mV may mean thats the guaranteed minimum between 20Hz and 20kHz. The second cartridge may therefore sound slightly louder.

So, if you are not happy with your amps P/Stage gain, you have look for some Phono with a higher gain of about 45-50db in the specs. Before that please check the cartridge leads for any deposit/corrosion etc(unlikely but just incase). Or try any other TT with same cart. just to isolate/identify the problem area.

Regards,

Bhaskar
 
bhaskarcan said:
Dada, there are various factors that are effecting the gain of your record output when compared to CD. One of them is definitely the gain of your Int. Amp's Phono stage which can be much lower than CD player's line level input(~1-1.2V). Secondly the output gain of Shure M97 is comparatively on lower side ~4mV(7mV for M44-7). So the resultant is lower gain than CD line. Even depending how the voltages are being measured, one cartridge manufacturer may specify a level of say 4mV at 1kHz, while another specifying 4mV may mean thats the guaranteed minimum between 20Hz and 20kHz. The second cartridge may therefore sound slightly louder.

So, if you are not happy with your amps P/Stage gain, you have look for some Phono with a higher gain of about 45-50db in the specs. Before that please check the cartridge leads for any deposit/corrosion etc(unlikely but just incase). Or try any other TT with same cart. just to isolate/identify the problem area.

Regards,

Bhaskar
Click to expand...

Hi,

Good to find someone addressing me as Dada but am not that old :-)

I have used the same cartridge in my other Pioneer TT and found more gain in the output at same volume level. No deposit in the stylus as I clean it regularly. Yes you are correct as the cartridge gain itself is less than some of its counterparts.

Which Phono preamp you suggest with a 45-50db that might serve my purpose?
 
Hi jay,

I am using Sachin's CNC Phono stage for the past 2 years and can certainly say that it beats some dedicated Phono stages like CA 640P, and the inbuilt Phono stage of many integrated amps like Marantz PM6003. You can try for a demo from forum members who use one. Try with a CNC Phono equipped with 49990 or AD797 Opamps for the best performance.

Just my Rs.2/-.

N.Murali
 
Last edited:
jay said:
Hi,

Good to find someone addressing me as Dada but am not that old :-)
.........................
Click to expand...

AFAIK you are older than me....and calling 'Dada' has got nothing to do with age....it's sign of respect that we all have for you. :):)

jay said:
Hi,
...........................................
I have used the same cartridge in my other Pioneer TT and found more gain in the output at same volume level. No deposit in the stylus as I clean it regularly. Yes you are correct as the cartridge gain itself is less than some of its counterparts.

Which Phono preamp you suggest with a 45-50db that might serve my purpose?
Click to expand...

If your Pioneer TT is giving more gain than the 1200 in the same setup with same cartridge then clearly something is wrong with the 1200's arm wiring or inter-connect. Pls get it checked. Introducing an extra equipment in the chain is not always beneficial SQwise.

Regards,

Bhaskar
 
Even I am having the same issue with my newly acquired Philips TT 242 connected to my Denon 510 inbuilt phono-stage. Hence opted for the CNC kit from Sachin which I am yet to build.
 
murali_n said:
Hi jay,

I am using Sachin's CNC Phono stage for the past 2 years and can certainly say that it beats some dedicated Phono stages like CA 640P, and the inbuilt Phono stage of many integrated amps like Marantz PM6003. You can try for a demo from forum members at Bangalore who use one. Try with a CNC Phono equipped with 49990 or AD797 Opamps for the best performance.

Just my Rs.2/-.

N.Murali
Click to expand...

Hi Murali,

Dada's problem is less gain of his int. amp's phono, I don't know if CNC can solve it with it's ~30db gain. That's why I'm not suggesting it. I myself use CNC with SSP to get better gain. And anytime CNC is a way better phono stage than any other in that price range.

Regards,

Bhaskar
 
The CNC has about 40 dB of gain (IIRC), roughly the same as your amp's inbuilt phono stage. It won't resolve your problem of low amplitude.

If you can get hold of any other cartridge (which should be known to be in normal working condition) and try it out in your setup, you should be able to isolate the problem. I do feel that you are blaming your amp's in-built phono stage a bit prematurely.
 
A quick questions Jay - Is this something you have been facing from the very beginning with the 1200 or is it something that has just cropped up?

I use the same setup of 1200 paired with the m97xe with a NAD 3020i PS and yes the carts gain is comparatively a bit low, but I do not need to crank the volume up like you mentioned. Something is really wrong.

As suggested, conduct a through check on the TTs tone arm wiring, alignment, calibration etc. I also suggest using the "TECHINCS BAERWALDS ARC PROTRACTOR" from vinylengine.com and its pretty accurate for the 1200. Also, try using another cart to isolate.
 
jay said:
The issue what I am facing is that the sound output which I get from the CD player connected to the same Amp,i am not getting the same from the TT. To get the same volume level I need to increase the volume knowb by 30% to 50%.
Click to expand...

30-50%? How much is that exactly? Say while playing the CD, your volume knob is at 8 o' clock. Do you have to increase the knob to between 9-10 o' clock while playing the vinyl (to get the same volume)? Or do you have to crank it up to more than 10/11 o' clock? The former case is i think fine.
 
The CNC has sufficient gain for MM carts of 3mv output or more.It is close to 40db after swapping 150r resisters to 100 ohms.You will need it only when you are using low sensitivity speakers with no gain buffer(Pass b1 or similar)and low power Class Amp like Pass F5.
Most of the PS in integrated amps have low output compared to outboard phonostages.

Regards,
Sachin
 
On another note, most receivers like the type you own, do not have good phonostages, in most cases, the phonostage is included just as an additional feature so its not a bad idea to have a dedicated phonostage.
 
bhaskarcan said:
If your Pioneer TT is giving more gain than the 1200 in the same setup with same cartridge then clearly something is wrong with the 1200's arm wiring or inter-connect. Pls get it checked. Introducing an extra equipment in the chain is not always beneficial SQwise.

Regards,

Bhaskar
Click to expand...

How do I get it checked? We don't have a Technics Service Centre here. Any other way I can check? Pls suggest.
 
jls001 said:
The CNC has about 40 dB of gain (IIRC), roughly the same as your amp's inbuilt phono stage. It won't resolve your problem of low amplitude.

If you can get hold of any other cartridge (which should be known to be in normal working condition) and try it out in your setup, you should be able to isolate the problem. I do feel that you are blaming your amp's in-built phono stage a bit prematurely.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

So that means I need to look at an option of changing my cartridge.

Which Cartridge do you suggest which will give me a higher GAIN. Preferably from Shure or any other equivalent brand that will be compatible to my SL1200.
 
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