Phono Preamp - which Model should I use if required

[jay]

A quick questions Jay - Is this something you have been facing from the very beginning with the 1200 or is it something that has just cropped up?

I use the same setup of 1200 paired with the m97xe with a NAD 3020i PS and yes the carts gain is comparatively a bit low, but I do not need to crank the volume up like you mentioned. Something is really wrong.

As suggested, conduct a through check on the TTs tone arm wiring, alignment, calibration etc. I also suggest using the "TECHINCS BAERWALDS ARC PROTRACTOR" from vinylengine.com and its pretty accurate for the 1200. Also, try using another cart to isolate.

My Technics SL1200 was a brand new one which I bought from Tokyo 3 years back. So if not a product defect ( which is unlikely) I doubt there will be any problem with wiring. The alignments seems to be fine as I followed the grind and the output which I receive from the TT is perfect. But it's comparatively a bit low than the output I receive from my CD player and I love to listen things at high volume.

The above issue has been noticed from day 1 and I was suggested by few that a phono amp in between will serve my purpose But I didn't add any for the last 2 years. But now I am seriously looking into it and trying to resolve this issue.

 

[jay]

The problem maybe due to a worn out stylus also, has to be checked.

N.Murali

How frequently a stylus needs to be changed?
Pls suggest.

 

[jay]

30-50%? How much is that exactly? Say while playing the CD, your volume knob is at 8 o' clock. Do you have to increase the knob to between 9-10 o' clock while playing the vinyl (to get the same volume)? Or do you have to crank it up to more than 10/11 o' clock? The former case is i think fine.

Need to check on this and revert.

 

[jay]

The CNC has sufficient gain for MM carts of 3mv output or more.It is close to 40db after swapping 150r resisters to 100 ohms.You will need it only when you are using low sensitivity speakers with no gain buffer(Pass b1 or similar)and low power Class Amp like Pass F5.
Most of the PS in integrated amps have low output compared to outboard phonostages.

Regards,
Sachin

I use a Yamaha AX 496 Stereo Amp and a pair of Yamaha NS8390 floor standing Speakers

So what you suggest?

 

[jay]

On another note, most receivers like the type you own, do not have good phonostages, in most cases, the phonostage is included just as an additional feature so its not a bad idea to have a dedicated phonostage.

Thanks.

Which Amps have good Phonostages inbuilt in it? Pls suggest.

 

[jls001]

Thanks.

So that means I need to look at an option of changing my cartridge.

Which Cartridge do you suggest which will give me a higher GAIN. Preferably from Shure or any other equivalent brand that will be compatible to my SL1200.

Shure M44-7, the cartridge with the highest output (in the universe)

On the other hand, when you crank up the volume when playing your turntable, do you also get hum or noise? or is it noise free even at higher volume?

If there is no noise, and if I were you, I would just let the whole thing be. It doesn't mean all your sources should be listened to at exactly "x" setting of volume. After all, what's a variable volume knob for?

 

[sachu888]

I use a Yamaha AX 496 Stereo Amp and a pair of Yamaha NS8390 floor standing Speakers

So what you suggest?

I would suggest you to demo with any outboard phonostage.I am biased towards CNC but you can also try CA,NAD PP2 etc if you are in budget.
I am almost sure there is no problem with your TT.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[jay]

Shure M44-7, the cartridge with the highest output (in the universe)

On the other hand, when you crank up the volume when playing your turntable, do you also get hum or noise? or is it noise free even at higher volume?

If there is no noise, and if I were you, I would just let the whole thing be. It doesn't mean all your sources should be listened to at exactly "x" setting of volume. After all, what's a variable volume knob for?

Thanks.

No there is no distortion,no noise if I crank up the volume.nit sounds absolutely perfect.

But I have a psychological issue and I.e. I do not increase the knob once it touches 12 o click. Beyond that I am not comfortable moving it though it sounds distortion free beyond 12 also.

At 12 the volume level which I get from my CD player I dn't get from the Tyrntable. Hence the whole exercise of how do I increase the gain to match up my expectations

 

[jay]

I would suggest you to demo with any outboard phonostage.I am biased towards CNC but you can also try CA,NAD PP2 etc if you are in budget.
I am almost sure there is no problem with your TT.

Regards,
Sachin

CA NAD PP2 what's the rough cost?

 

[Selvin]

30-50%? How much is that exactly? Say while playing the CD, your volume knob is at 8 o' clock. Do you have to increase the knob to between 9-10 o' clock while playing the vinyl (to get the same volume)? Or do you have to crank it up to more than 10/11 o' clock? The former case is i think fine.

+1 to this. Sound level while playing vinyl is always little less compare to CD player and Tuners. I think you no need to worry much..

 

[sachu888]

CA NAD PP2 what's the rough cost?

7k(approx)

Regards
Sachin

 

[Selvin]

Thanks.

Which Amps have good Phonostages inbuilt in it? Pls suggest.

For my experience Marantz PM7001, PM8003, PM8004, PM Ki Pearl Lite amps inbuilt phono stage is better than many entry level external phono stages like CA640, NAD PP1 and PP2. The above amplifiers phone stages are built completely by transistors not IC's.

 

[jls001]

Thanks.

No there is no distortion,no noise if I crank up the volume.nit sounds absolutely perfect.

But I have a psychological issue and I.e. I do not increase the knob once it touches 12 o click. Beyond that I am not comfortable moving it though it sounds distortion free beyond 12 also.

At 12 the volume level which I get from my CD player I dn't get from the Tyrntable. Hence the whole exercise of how do I increase the gain to match up my expectations

You should get over it and save yourself a packet .

There is nothing wrong in cranking the volume a bit more to get the desired loudness (as long as there is no audible distortion or noise).

I don't have a circular volume knob like you but I can tell you the variation in my volume setting is crazily huge, but I am ok as there is neither distortion nor noise even at highest comfortable setting.

CDs are played at about -44 to -46 dB.
My phono's (fixed) gain is 55 dB, which is good enough for a MC cartridge with a high-ish output of say 0.5 mV. But I use very low output cartridges (one is 0.23 mV and the other is 0.3 mV) so I end up increasing volume to -30 to -33 dB. That's like 14 to 17 dB more than comparable CD playout.

On the other hand, 55 dB of gain is too much for an MM cartridges, so a 5 mV cartridge is comfortable at -55 dB volume setting.

So my volume swing is (55-30) = 25 dB, to get same level of perceived loudness from different sources.

 

[manniraj]

I am posting on this thread as I also face the same problem... so apologies for the OP..
I am also living with this high volume setting when using Phono of Denon amplifier but the problem which I am realizing off late is that if I forget to reduce the volume after listening then changing the source to say CD/Line I get extremely high sound and I fear that my speakers get damaged. It happened couple of times but I am being cautious that I reduce the volume completely before I change the source. Otherwise with high volume there is no distortion or sound degradation its very clear. I almost double the volume level while listening to Phono source at present.

 

[kuruvilajacob]

For my experience Marantz PM7001, PM8003, PM8004, PM Ki Pearl Lite amps inbuilt phono stage is better than many entry level external phono stages like CA640, NAD PP1 and PP2. The above amplifiers phone stages are built completely by transistors not IC's.

I have a Nakamichi Amplifier 1 and the phono section looks like a dedicated one and MM sounds very warm and detailed. I know that many old Sansui amps had excellent phono stages. I used to use only the phono stage of some of these amps

 

[kuruvilajacob]

I am posting on this thread as I also face the same problem... so apologies for the OP..
I am also living with this high volume setting when using Phono of Denon amplifier but the problem which I am realizing off late is that if I forget to reduce the volume after listening then changing the source to say CD/Line I get extremely high sound and I fear that my speakers get damaged. It happened couple of times but I am being cautious that I reduce the volume completely before I change the source. Otherwise with high volume there is no distortion or sound degradation its very clear. I almost double the volume level while listening to Phono source at present.

What cartridge are you using? If your TT has a cart with low gain, this may happen

 

[sachu888]

I am posting on this thread as I also face the same problem... so apologies for the OP..
I am also living with this high volume setting when using Phono of Denon amplifier but the problem which I am realizing off late is that if I forget to reduce the volume after listening then changing the source to say CD/Line I get extremely high sound and I fear that my speakers get damaged. It happened couple of times but I am being cautious that I reduce the volume completely before I change the source. Otherwise with high volume there is no distortion or sound degradation its very clear. I almost double the volume level while listening to Phono source at present.

You will not face this problem with CNC Phonostage.It has a sufficient gain,but little less than line level preamp.It is also better than entry level ps and inbuilt PS in integrated amps.Many members are using M97xe with CNC and has no problem with gain.You can also increase gain in CNC by swapping two 150R resisters to lower value 100R or 75R without any ill effect.

Regards,
Sachin

Regards,

 

[jay]

You should get over it and save yourself a packet .

There is nothing wrong in cranking the volume a bit more to get the desired loudness (as long as there is no audible distortion or noise).

I don't have a circular volume knob like you but I can tell you the variation in my volume setting is crazily huge, but I am ok as there is neither distortion nor noise even at highest comfortable setting.

CDs are played at about -44 to -46 dB.
My phono's (fixed) gain is 55 dB, which is good enough for a MC cartridge with a high-ish output of say 0.5 mV. But I use very low output cartridges (one is 0.23 mV and the other is 0.3 mV) so I end up increasing volume to -30 to -33 dB. That's like 14 to 17 dB more than comparable CD playout.

On the other hand, 55 dB of gain is too much for an MM cartridges, so a 5 mV cartridge is comfortable at -55 dB volume setting.

So my volume swing is (55-30) = 25 dB, to get same level of perceived loudness from different sources.

Thanks a lot.

 

[jay]

7k(approx)

Regards
Sachin

Thanks.

Is it easily available in India?

 

[jagdish_p]

I am posting on this thread as I also face the same problem... so apologies for the OP..
I am also living with this high volume setting when using Phono of Denon amplifier but the problem which I am realizing off late is that if I forget to reduce the volume after listening then changing the source to say CD/Line I get extremely high sound and I fear that my speakers get damaged. It happened couple of times but I am being cautious that I reduce the volume completely before I change the source. Otherwise with high volume there is no distortion or sound degradation its very clear. I almost double the volume level while listening to Phono source at present.

Check if your Amp has an individual gain setting for each input.If yes you set a higher gain setting for the phono input so that you do not have to crank up the volume control.