Power plant PS AUDIO

[Enkay78]

I already did. HFV has a clear policy of not allowing manufacturers promoting their own products in regular threads - there is a separate section for that. The IndiQ incident showed that on a forum it is very possible to have people tied directly or indirectly to a certain brand , promoting the same. Now who or what gives you the assurance that the same isn’t happening on ASR reviews as well , especially when the manufacturers themselves are involved , and are almost always providing their own products for review ?

ASR does not run ads. It is run purely with user donations.

In addition to designers, manufacturers...there are audio luminaries and reviewers, researchers there.

It's a wonderful platform. The merit of ASR can be ascertained by manufacturer responding to measurements. It's only boutique ones which are aghast at ASR.

Amongst the websites I frequent ASR is in the top 5.

 

[Bloom@83]

ASR does not run ads. It is run purely with user donations.

and some of those users are manufacturers, or tied to manufacturers.

 

[aeroash]

Forgot about the IndiQ fiasco even here on HFV ?

Sorry to digress, what was the IndiQ issue? Could you please share a link on that, if any. Thanks

 

[Bloom@83]

Sorry to digress, what was the IndiQ issue? Could you please share a link on that, if any. Thanks

Indiq Audio

We have reason to believe that a few forum members affiliated in one way or another to Indiq Audio have been using the forum to conduct a proxy sale campaign over the last few months. We are making enquiries into the matter but until then we have pulled all discussions on Indiq Audio products...

www.hifivision.com

There were many such threads and those were all deleted prior to this announcement.

 

[Enkay78]

Are you sure?

I feel there is a strict open rule that ASR does not take any funding from any manufacturer.

 

[sidvee]

and some of those users are manufacturers, or tied to manufacturers.

If this is true, then IMO it is a big issue. However many measurements that ASR makes are also corroborated by other magazines/sites etc. Its only the interpretation that differs.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[prateekatasniya]

@Enkay78 this is off thread just a question,
if by any chance you have the moolah to get the Pearl Acoustics Sibelius. Will you try them then buy or check on the measurements and then decide ?

Asking cause, just a brief these speakers where in development for 3 years, have one single driver for both high freq and low freq.
Guess what, these speakers where designed by ears not any other measurements first then later they tested them.
These are made by Harley Lovegrove, who is a musician, recording engineer and a serious audiophile.

You seem to rely too much on measurements, not that its wrong. But measurements just tell one side of the story.

I certainly won't make comments or judge anything until I listen, see or feel and ofcourse try it out.
Be it anything, cars, bikes, amps, pre amps, DAC's or heck even speaker cables.

View attachment 67609

These speakers are made using mark audio drivers ..
And data of these drivers is available..

@Enkay78 this is off thread just a question,
if by any chance you have the moolah to get the Pearl Acoustics Sibelius. Will you try them then buy or check on the measurements and then decide ?

Asking cause, just a brief these speakers where in development for 3 years, have one single driver for both high freq and low freq.
Guess what, these speakers where designed by ears not any other measurements first then later they tested them.
These are made by Harley Lovegrove, who is a musician, recording engineer and a serious audiophile.

You seem to rely too much on measurements, not that its wrong. But measurements just tell one side of the story.

I certainly won't make comments or judge anything until I listen, see or feel and ofcourse try it out.
Be it anything, cars, bikes, amps, pre amps, DAC's or heck even speaker cables.

View attachment 67609

3 years to develop a speaker whose drivers are available since years..?
The marketing is good.. targeting subjectivist.

 

[keith_correa]

If this is true, then IMO it is a big issue.

There's no way of knowing if that is true. Or false, for that matter. This is pure speculation either way. One can choose to look at the good in bad or the bad in good. I'm not a saint by a long stretch but I attempt to look at the good rather than focus on the bad. But for others that are the other type, I don't think that is a "bad" trait - it just makes them different from me. After all, it takes all kinds to make up the world!

 

[Kannan]

It is good to have manufacturers or their technical team members in forums like ASR where other members/end users cans interact.
In such a scenario, when a ASR member measures a product and posts the technical results, it becomes easier for the company to point out corrections, changes or explain the deviations if any, from their publsihed results. It also helps them on improving upon their design or to explain why a particular deviation is actullay good for the product's overall performace.
Also such interaction/explanations are only possible on objective platforms.
As a benefit, In forums like ASR, one can read members sharing their subjective experience which may or maynot correlate with the objective measurements.
Many have reported Topping DACs for example fatuiging in their comments.
Ofcourse like any other forums, there are indeed bakths in ASR too who gang up and often ridicule...

With totally subjective forums, it remains a totally personal opinion within the constrains of the reviewer, his listening environment and the chain of equipment he uses.
Though it emulates what an end user actually wants, the accuracy or veracity in itself is absolutely subjective.
A manufacturer if also a member in such forums, can atmost post a thank you or his subjective interpretation to counter a negative review.
In such a scenario, objective measurements, if available often helps in taking an informed decision.

Forums like ASR (which is quite unique and bold) are a boon, but they do have their pitfalls as they fail to correlate the subjective with the objective due to their inherent biases.
Guys who are adept in measuring need not be good in voicing.
Voicing in my opinion is a combination of art and science.

 

[amrutmhatre90]

3 years to develop a speaker whose drivers are available since years..?
The marketing is good.. targeting subjectivist.

Driver availability is one thing, and getting the cabinet right is other. Both combined should sound good. Thats where most development time goes.

Very well said Mr. @Kannan its an art and science both.

If things don't measure well, nobody will have a look at it.

I know people who just care about high watts, and I mean more than 200watts per channel. When I told them some people use mere 10 watts and sound good they laughed.
Guess what, same people bought 45watts IAs now and are more than happy

Everything is a marketing gimmick, but we should also factor that everyone here is to make money.
Take example of Toyota Innova, brilliant product. Few years back it was available for 7-8 lakhs when it was just launched. People started liking it, increased the price to 11 with few updates and so on now it costs nearly 30. It is a unique product, no close competition, no manufacturer has a product to complete Innova right now in India, infact even the Fortuner.
Hence they can get away with charging hefty premium.

But some people also think, premium also means better.

These are mind games, feel good factor. PS Audio developed something which no one offered in that time.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Guys just relax

I will buy stuff based on my listening...so should you all

So where have measurements come in the picture. Except for those criticising my purchases, which iam claiming work for me. And the measurements bhakts claiming it shouldn't

This is an incorrect analogy.

Let me narrate an event I attended in one of the hotels where they were allowing us to taste single malts. The usual nonsense of taking cold and hot tea before every taste, etc.

In any case, a lot of us came across a particular bottle whose malt had a burnt smell (smell, mind you, not taste). After a lot of persuasion, the truth came out. It seem in one of their warehouses, they store a lot of whisky to age in wooden barrels. Unfortunately for them, there was a factory nearby that was spewing a lot of smoke. In time, that smoke reached the warehouse and seeped into the whisky.

So what did the company do? Instead of throwing away all their whisky or selling it at discounted prices, they bottled it in a different color, added a new label, a new name, charged some 25$ more and sold the entire lot!

Is that not brilliant? What is essentially a kind of pollution is marketed as a new taste and charged extra. The person who is used to drinking can easily discern this at the drop of a hat. And, a good chemical comparison can clearly mark any pollution out. Whether the wine of whisky is better or worse is a different matter.

And why not? If Topping, or any other brand, measures well and delivers the goods, why spend 1000s of $ on a marketing gimmick or a brand that just charges more for the name.

If you look at Class D, ICEPower, Purifi, and other technologies are shaking the foundation of well established players and competing with Class A. Companies like NAD and Parasound have quietly adopted the technologies so that they dont lose out. If you know which model of ICEPower a company is using, you will get a broad idea of the performance and specs you can expect. Then, it is just a question of price and your trust in the company you are buying.

If you take computers, for example, either an Intel or an AMD CPU has a predefined circuit that is followed by all MB manufacturers. Every time Qualcomm releases a new CPU, it also releases the complete circuit for using the CPU to all mobile manufacturers. Each manufacturer adds minor variations to differentiate himself from the others.

The time is not far away when TI, Microchip or some such manufacturer will design an IC that will become the standard in amplification. When that happens manufacturers will have very little leeway is design and offerings.

Cheers

I appreciate what you are saying venkat. You almost seem to be taken on the wrong side of the debate. Which as it stands now, is that based on ASR measurements, the PS audio power plant iam using shouldn't work in my system. And yet it does.

As to if a dac that ASR measures to be superior to another, is to be taken seriously. Is a personal choice. I will leave that out in the open. If people want to keep upgrading between dacs, that measure increasingly better at ASR, then it's again a personal call. But I will keep buying stuff that sounds better to me in my room, and I don't need any measurements to validate what iam listening.

 

[amrutmhatre90]

I will buy stuff based on my listening...so should you all

Me too, ears and personal impressions first. But wouldn't force anyone to follow this rule.

People can go ahead and buy anything they want, in the end it should please them and they should be happy with it.

 

[aeroash]

I will buy stuff based on my listening...so should you all

NEVER! For me it's always going to be a blind buy first, then realise it doesn't work too well in my set up, put it up for Sale in HFV, with a note saying that it's brand new, invoice and warranty available, no haggling, no low-balling. Sell, pack it, courier it, and then look for something shiny to buy once again!

View attachment 67692

A lot of us are aware of this kind of pleasure; it usually involves muting the Audio though.

 

[keith_correa]

NEVER! For me it's always going to be a blind buy first, then realise it doesn't work too well in my set up, put it up for Sale in HFV, with a note saying that it's brand new, invoice and warranty available, no haggling, no low-balling.

You forgot - "can be shipped, but at buyers expense and risk".

 

[Enkay78]

I appreciate what you are saying venkat. You almost seem to be taken on the wrong side of the debate. Which as it stands now, is that based on ASR measurements, the PS audio power plant iam using shouldn't work in my system. And yet it does.

As to if a dac that ASR measures to be superior to another, is to be taken seriously. Is a personal choice. I will leave that out in the open. If people want to keep upgrading between dacs, that measure increasingly better at ASR, then it's again a personal call. But I will keep buying stuff that sounds better to me in my room, and I don't need any measurements to validate what iam listening.

Ahah........

So it was owners pride and neigbours envy all along. Now i understand why the stance was/is.

Measurements/objective parameters are the foundation of science and technology. Humans have reach to the current state of civilisation and technological advancement because of science.

 

[arj]

I dont believe any one here is a pure Objectivist or Subjectivist ie we all rely on both measurements and listening ( direct or hearsay) to varying degrees and combinations.
I doubt anyone here buys something on specs alone without listening Or buys something which is known to test badly even if they liked the sound.

How much is what is debated here. so if we look at the combinations below ( of course there are more variations but 3 makes it simpler)

A . People Who know how to read all measurements 1. People who Know what they are looking for and completely trust their ears
B. People who can partially understand measurements . 2. People who are fairly confident of their ears and still on the journey of learning
C. People who dont know how to read measurements 3. People who are new and cannot trust their ears fully since

I would rate myself a B2 above. I guess i fall into those who have limited knowledge and use that as well as knowledge to shortlist but would want to know about the sound from the network and try an hear it oneself as well before finalizing.

Of course the elephant in the post is about how availability of the measurement to any element of detail...

 

[thedude]

Ahah........


So it was owners pride and neigbours envy all along.


Now i understand why the stance was/is.


Measurements/objective parameters are the foundation of science......and technology. Humans have reach to the current state of civilisation and technological advancement because of science.

I leave the measurements to the manufacturers and the ASRs. My opinion is there is no guarantee something will sound good if it measure well mostly because many variables are involved…tastes, spaces, ability to perceive differences etc etc. So I tend to only care about how something sounds. This may not work for everyone but does for me.

Live and let live.

I dont believe any one here is a pure Objectivist or Subjectivist ie we all rely on both measurements and listening ( direct or hearsay) to varying degrees and combinations.
I doubt anyone here buys something on specs alone without listening Or buys something which is known to test badly even if they liked the sound.

How much is what is debated here. so if we look at the combinations below ( of course there are more variations but 3 makes it simpler)



I would rate myself a B2 above. I guess i fall into those who have limited knowledge and use that as well as knowledge to shortlist but would want to know about the sound from the network and try an hear it oneself as well before finalizing.

Of course the elephant in the post is about how availability of the measurement to any element of detail...

I would be a B2 too

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Ahah........


So it was owners pride and neigbours envy all along.


Now i understand why the stance was/is.


Measurements/objective parameters are the foundation of science......and technology. Humans have reach to the current state of civilisation and technological advancement because of science.

That is what it seems like enkay

Owners pride and neighbours envy

And I have nothing more to say. You can enjoy your musical journey, thinking that you are listening to the best possible. Because ASR's measurements convince you so, I will still be happy with that

 

[Enkay78]

I leave the measurements to the manufacturers and the ASRs. My opinion is there is no guarantee something will sound good if it measure well mostly because many variables are involved…tastes, spaces, ability to perceive differences etc etc. So I tend to only care about how something sounds. This may not work for everyone but does for me.

Live and let live.

Well at the end it always is what one likes.


But that's tangent to the moot point I have been raising.

Audio technology, science is an established science - electronics etc.

The debate tends to confuse audio science/technology with the end user taste/subjectivity.


The eg of this thread is this:

A manufacturer claims that their device cleans us dirty power source without any objective data/measurements which will lay credence to their claims. It's the onus of these manufacturer to disprove any doubt about the performance.


Now instead of the manufacturer defending their claims, we consumers themselves (who don't even have the necessary knowledge fo the science and technology involved ) strays into personal and subjective defense.
....as if the debate is an attack to their choice.

PS AUDIO must be laughing to their banks. Paul must be one hell of a satisfied guy.......I mean he need not defend himself.


Again let me reiterate - at our won individual ends we have like/not like many things........but this thread is not about that. It's about asking the accountability of MANUFACTURERS of the credibility of their claims. It's the onus of them to disprove the doubts and third party findings.


So please stop defending your devices. Enjoy your choices. The thread is about something beyond our private ownership or enjoyments.

 

[Bloom@83]

I leave the measurements to the manufacturers and the ASRs. My opinion is there is no guarantee something will sound good if it measure well mostly because many variables are involved…tastes, spaces, ability to perceive differences etc etc. So I tend to only care about how something sounds. This may not work for everyone but does for me.

Live and let live.

absolutely.
I auditioned two years for a pair of speakers. At least 15 different brands and models in different price brackets (from 20k to 1.5L) I tried before I finally found one that sounds the way I like it (even better at my room than at the demo place ) . Who cares what the measurements say. Some of the others I didn’t like might very well measure better than the ones I finally chose.

It was only in the matter of choosing my amp , my preamp , first solid state , then tubes , that I looked into specs and measurements of my speakers and kept in mind (as one of the factors ) while buying branded amp or commissioning builds.