question about open back headphones

[theironhorse]

The scale on the graph is not linear. It seems exponential (from the markings on the frequency scale). So while the cans have decent response above 10khz, probably till 17-18khz, the graph's scale is too short to emphasize it.

Now the interesting question is why pick a exponentional scale rather than a logarithmic scale ? I'd guess the tester was more interested in the bass & midrange.

man it went all bonkers...

all i know is what sounds better..

 

[gryph0n]

The scale on the graph is not linear. It seems exponential (from the markings on the frequency scale). So while the cans have decent response above 10khz, probably till 17-18khz, the graph's scale is too short to emphasize it.

Now the interesting question is why pick a exponentional scale rather than a logarithmic scale ? I'd guess the tester was more interested in the bass & midrange.

Whoops, I messed up. It's indeed a logarithmic graph. That should teach me to shoot off my tongue

Logarithmic scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

File:Logarithmic Scales.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't understand mathematical terms but is it to do with:

--- Each octave rise in tone doubles the frequency in hz, so they use a scale that represents more accurately how we hear?

and/or

--- Our ear's frequency range drops off more steeply at the higher end than at the lower end? Not 100% sure of this, but I think so.

A logarithmic scale is closer to human hearing for the 1st reason you've mentioned.

The sharp drop-off in resolution at higher frequencies is due to the nature of the logarithmic scale. It does have an interesting co-relation with the drop-off in our ear's sensitivity to higher frequency, which is probably why logarithmic graphs are common in audio circles. Also helped by the fact that on a linear scale, a graph would get too wide.

man it went all bonkers...

all i know is what sounds better..

He he Very true. Graphs are a guide to what can sound better. But what does sound better is indeed very subjective.

 

[esanthosh]

quick question, why are all these cans going to dogs beyond 10khz? If a speaker showed that kind of response, i wouldn't touch it with a 10 feet pole.

Check here (Scroll down to Diffuse field equalisation). Basically a "flat measuring" headphone won't be perceived the same as a flat FR speaker. Some more thoughts on this here.

In simpler terms, from this post (formatting and emphasis mine)

Headphone frequency response measurements, conducted with a microphone in front of the headphone driver, much as speaker measurements were conducted, observed that headphones with a measured flat frequency response did not sound as flat as would be expected from a speaker with identical measurements. Comparing the sound of a flat measured speaker with a flat measured headphone revealed extreme tonal differences that started off a whole lot of investigation into why they sounded different and how a headphones frequency response could be altered to make it sound like flat measured speakers.

An experiment was set up as follows:

1. A loudspeaker playing a frequency sweep was recorded by a high quality, miniature microphone in one of two types of room either an anechoic chamber or an approximation of an ordinary room (see later) and the frequency response was charted.
2. The same microphone was inserted into a subjects ear canal and the same speaker replayed frequency sweep was charted again.
3. It turned out there was quite a difference between the charted frequency response of the two recordings.
4. It was postulated that if the frequency response of the recording made by the microphone in the ear (see 2) could be altered by pre-equalization to ultimately match the shape of the frequency response of the recording of the same microphone when not in the ear (see 1), then replay of that in-ear microphone recording would sound the same as that of replay of the recording made by the same microphone in a room.
5. This gave rise to a target measured frequency response for a headphone to sound like a flat measured speaker i.e. if the headphone had a measured frequency response that looked like the target response, it should sound flat when reproducing a recording that had been mixed with speakers in front of the mixer, and sound as if one was listening to speakers in front of him/her, rather than via headphones.
6. The concept of pre-equalization of headphones was thus born.

 

[koushikp]

visited pristine note last evening and got the AD-700 along with the Audinst HUD-mx1...which was recommended by the owner instead of the fiio e10, it is quite future proof also given that it drives headphones upto 600 ohms..

first up, on the DAC! this is my first time owning a DAC, and I first connected it to my AE2s on my worktable as I was familiar to how they sound and!!! :yahoo: what a change in sound quality! they suddenly feel so so better, so much better instrument separation, warmer sound, none of the high frequencies sound harsh anymore...very impressed..

now on the AD-700s, I am listening to them as I am writing this with the rockstar album, one of my favorites on recent years...first thing i notice after 30 minutes of listening...zero fatigue...usually after 30 minutes with my old setup (no DAC, AE2) i used to feel slightly fatigued...also, noticing much more detail even at lower volumes...that must be due to the audinst..

now on the SQ of the AD-700s...don't wanna say much apart from the fact that absolutely I love it...superb instrument separation, great soundstage, bass enough for me, i feel anything more would have again tired my ears out...any detailed analysis is probably meaningless as I am new to headphones..

thad, ironhorse and everyone else who participated in this thread...must thank all u guys for increasing my understanding of headphones and pointing me in the right direction...that's why i love HFV...:clapping:

 

[tirthankar]

Glad you like the ATs How is the wearing comfort?

Those wing like things look weird, but for me they make wearing the headphones extremely comfortable. And they are pretty light too.

And your opinions on the SQ match mine exactly.. enjoy mate :thumbsup:

 

[koushikp]

Wearing comfort is superb, they are so light...since I done plan to use them outdoors, don't really care how they look on the head...

Very happy worth the purchase!

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2

 

[gryph0n]

Congrats on the purchases :clapping: Would it be possible for you to tell how much it hit the wallet?

The MX1 has a pretty good DAC; I've seen reviews (Headfonia I think) where it's come up only a teen-weeny bit short of the acclaimed Xonar STX. And compared to onboard, which is what I guess you were using, it comes out way ahead.

DAC-wise, I think the E10 shouldn't be too far away from the MX1, but the MX1 has a better headphone amp. I'm curious to know if you had a chance to audition both at PN's shop, and if so, "pretty please" post your comparative impressions on the DAC capabilities :licklips:

The AD range from Audio Technica has a very comfortable design. Though they look big and heavy, it's surprising comfortable on your head. My only grouse is that it messes up my hair :lol:

also, noticing much more detail even at lower volumes...that must be due to the audinst..

Compared to speakers, where i guess you're coming from, headphones have an ability to present a more intimate soundstage, revealing a lot more details.

While the MX1 may have some role here, I believe the AD-700 headphone is the primary reason. If you're ready to experiment, you could try both AE2 & AD-700 with the onboard sound, and you should find the AD-700 still is more detailed than your AE2.

FWIW, I had the same experience, from opposite direction. I had shifted residence sometime ago and was too lazy to re-hook the speakers. So I was using the AD-700 exclusively for almost 6-7 months, before connecting the speakers. When I first turned on the speakers, my immediate reaction was: "WTH, where are all the details !!!" :lol: The soundstage with speakers was much wider, but the detailing wasn't as good as headphones.

 

[kaushik]

open back good HPs have a magic .. i have superlux set and i love it .
just from lappy o/p even w/o dac it does a good job

just the PU leather pad i need to replace

i dont see the need to do too much reading of scientific tests

HP just plug and check if it suites u who cares of HRTF :sad:

but i prefer stereo setup , HPs are bulky and cant be used on the move

 

[koushikp]

The ad-700 costed me about 6k..same as their site price..at current exchange rate its just 500 bucks more than the US price...they said prices will increase when the next shipment comes..

No I didn't get to compare the fiio and the audinst. My primary reason for choosing the audinst was the ability to drive higher impedance headphones like bayerdynamics, PN confirmed that are using it to drive 600ohm headphones to their satisfaction..I know the upgrade bug won't leave me since I have got into headphones now..so wanted the purchase to be future proof..

Sent from my BlackBerry 9810
using tapatalk

 

[gryph0n]

but i prefer stereo setup , HPs are bulky and cant be used on the move

Dude, you wanna tell which speakers you find portable and usable on the move ?

I guess you transposed 'speakers' and 'HP'

 

[theironhorse]

visited pristine note last evening and got the AD-700 along with the Audinst HUD-mx1...which was recommended by the owner instead of the fiio e10, it is quite future proof also given that it drives headphones upto 600 ohms..

first up, on the DAC! this is my first time owning a DAC, and I first connected it to my AE2s on my worktable as I was familiar to how they sound and!!! :yahoo: what a change in sound quality! they suddenly feel so so better, so much better instrument separation, warmer sound, none of the high frequencies sound harsh anymore...very impressed..

now on the AD-700s, I am listening to them as I am writing this with the rockstar album, one of my favorites on recent years...first thing i notice after 30 minutes of listening...zero fatigue...usually after 30 minutes with my old setup (no DAC, AE2) i used to feel slightly fatigued...also, noticing much more detail even at lower volumes...that must be due to the audinst..

now on the SQ of the AD-700s...don't wanna say much apart from the fact that absolutely I love it...superb instrument separation, great soundstage, bass enough for me, i feel anything more would have again tired my ears out...any detailed analysis is probably meaningless as I am new to headphones..

thad, ironhorse and everyone else who participated in this thread...must thank all u guys for increasing my understanding of headphones and pointing me in the right direction...that's why i love HFV...:clapping:

i accept that thanks with a happy heart.. ad700 with a that setup must be bliss.. enjoy.. just make sure you don't get angry glares in the bedroom..

a good headphone rigs beats speaker+amp combo of 10 times its price..

 

[theironhorse]

open back good HPs have a magic .. i have superlux set and i love it .
just from lappy o/p even w/o dac it does a good job

just the PU leather pad i need to replace

i dont see the need to do too much reading of scientific tests

HP just plug and check if it suites u who cares of HRTF :sad:

but i prefer stereo setup , HPs are bulky and cant be used on the move

supuerlux is another good set of cans at dirt cheap. when they came for that price no one expected they would sound that good.. but they are indeed an extreme vfm or more...

instead of PU leather pad look for cloth or mesh for it will sweat if you aren't in ac for longer listening sessions. thats what i disliked bout the xb-500

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

koushikp, really happy that you got, and are happy with your headphones.

Most of my hifi buying was a decade ago, so there is not much more than principles (and a bit about computers ) that I can talk about here, but my headphones was a more recent purchase and a new departure in listening for me. Glad to have helped.

Do try twiddling the position a bit: it really does change the sound. And something I only realised the other day (after 18 months! )... the pads rotate to fine-tune that comfort.

Upgraditis? I'm on my first real pair of 'phones, and the other day I was reading about electrostatics... :lol:

But something that interests me more, in practical (and maybe afforable) terms, is binaural sound. It imitates the cross-talk/delay that you get with speakers to give the impression that the sound is a bit more in front of you, rather than the usual right-in-each-ear headphone effect, which can be fatiguing. However, I haven't found an affordable headphone amp with this facility that fits my specs, and my attempts at using a software plugin have not been that successful. Yes, it "moves" the sound forward, but my plugin also takes the edge off the sound, makes my 'phones sound cheap.

 

[gryph0n]

But something that interests me more, in practical (and maybe afforable) terms, is binaural sound. It imitates the cross-talk/delay that you get with speakers to give the impression that the sound is a bit more in front of you, rather than the usual right-in-each-ear headphone effect, which can be fatiguing. However, I haven't found an affordable headphone amp with this facility that fits my specs, and my attempts at using a software plugin have not been that successful. Yes, it "moves" the sound forward, but my plugin also takes the edge off the sound, makes my 'phones sound cheap.

To be true binaural, the source material itself has to be recorded binaurally, usually with 2 mikes arranged on a mannequin head to imitate 2 ears. To me, it is doubtful that software would be able to realistically simulate something intrinsic like that.

Binaural recording - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortunately, the Binaural 'effects' get very de-emphasized with speakers which have a natural cross-feed, and are suitable only for use with headphones/IEMs where cross-feed is absent.

There are very few artists who have recorded binaurally. Among the more well known is Pearl Jam's album 'Binaural', which has a few tracks recorded binaurally.

If you google around for 'virtual barber', you should be able to get a binaural demo that very realistically simulates a barber giving you a haircut in a very 3D soundstage. I think I had heard it during my college days, and it's still floating around on the web. Very impressive demo.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Ah, binaural from end to end? I vaguely remember seeing binaural/stereo switch on some piece of hifi kit somewhere, but can't remember what.

What we can do is try to get that ear-to-ear in-the-head effect of headphones shifted a bit outside.

My fancy is the Phonitor headphone amp, which is aimed at studio engineers who want/need the monitor-speaker experience when they have to use headphones. But sheesh, look at the price One seductive piece of kit for the gadget lovers. Yes, there are cheaper alternatives.

If you google around for 'virtual barber', you should be able to get a binaural demo that very realistically simulates a barber giving you a haircut in a very 3D soundstage. I think I had heard it during my college days, and it's still floating around on the web. Very impressive demo.

Try this: LEDR Listening Test. A new one from my favourite Blind Listening Tests site. Before I came across this, I thought that anything other than two dimensions, in stereo, was something that we contributed with our minds!

And then... there's the techniques that they use to give a 3D presence on pilots' headphones, to help them keep track of who is who, and this even allows for the movement of their heads!

 

[kGr99]

Koushik, Thad, ironhorse, gryphon and everyone else, thank you for this wonderful thread.

And Koushik, Congrats on your new headphones.

Currently, I am in the market for a good set of headphones and have almost zeroed down to AD-700. But, before I take the plunge, I would like your comments on the following.

I will not be buying a headphone amp anytime soon. So, will I be extracting the best from AD-700's if the following are my source or a headphone amp(+DAC) is a must to do justice to the AD-700's.

1) Squeezebox touch
2) Ipad 2.0
3) Laptop with onboard realtek soundcard
4) Samsung Galaxy S2

 

[koushikp]

Koushik, Thad, ironhorse, gryphon and everyone else, thank you for this wonderful thread.

And Koushik, Congrats on your new headphones.

Currently, I am in the market for a good set of headphones and have almost zeroed down to AD-700. But, before I take the plunge, I would like your comments on the following.

I will not be buying a headphone amp anytime soon. So, will I be extracting the best from AD-700's if the following are my source or a headphone amp(+DAC) is a must to do justice to the AD-700's.

1) Squeezebox touch
2) Ipad 2.0
3) Laptop with onboard realtek soundcard
4) Samsung Galaxy S2

well as a general principle, the AD-700 won't need too much amplification, so I will keep that part out of the eqation for now. That said, when I played the AD700 and the M50 with a Sansa clip that they had on them i generally found that they were loud enough only after driving the volume all the way up, so some amplification will help, but may not be absolutely necessary.

As far as the DAC goes...u r good to go with the squeezebox, its dac is pretty good. Even the ipad 2 standalone dac is decent enough to drive it, i am not so sure about your laptop though...tell u what soon enough i will do a A/B comparison on my laptop with and without the audinst DAC+amp and post a feedback here...i just have been enjoying so much with the audinst have been pretty lazy to do do and post the comparo ...not too sure about the S2 DAC, generally it is considered to be inferior to the S1, which i never found to be anything special even with my earlier klipsch S2 IEMs (the S1 was NOT rooted), and that had the wolfson DAC...

i would definitely say that the AD-700 has immensely benefited from the DAC...by how much...well...watch this space...

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I do not use a headphone amp with my A-T ATH AD900s. Well, not a dedicated one: my audio interface has a headphone socket with volume control , so i it must have a headphone amp...

What I wonder is whether I could improve on things by taking the amplification away from that box and getting a line-level input into a headphone amp (or maybe a DAC+Headphone amp, with the emphasis on the latter.

I don't listen to much LOUD MUSIC eek: Shhh!) so I never feel short-changed on volume. My 'phones volume knob never goes beyond 12-O'clock.

Sadly. my Cyrus amp does not have a headphone socket. I never missed it before, and could hardly believe it when I came to look for it. It is a good amp: I'm really sad I can't try my headphones with it!

When I bought the 'phones, I was on holiday with my Cowon A2 (which I used for the audition). They sounded good on that! Otherwise, have only tried them for a few minutes on my phone, and was surprised how nice that was.

For me, they absolutely do not need a headphone amp for volume. What I'd be seeking would be an improvement in sound quality.

 

[kGr99]

I just bought the AD-700's from Pristine Note. :yahoo:

This has been the easiest purchase for me so far. All it took was two forums, one here and the other head-fi.

Who dare says human race is coming to an end with such lovely people around.

 

[koushikp]

I just bought the AD-700's from Pristine Note. :yahoo:

This has been the easiest purchase for me so far. All it took was two forums, one here and the other head-fi.

Who dare says human race is coming to an end with such lovely people around.

congrats dude...enjoy...do post your post buying experience, and if you plan to get an economical DAC, look at the Fiio E10, the sound quality wouldn't differ too much based on what I have read in other forums and reviews, the only advantage the Audinst has over it is the ability to drive higher impedance headphones (>300 ohms)..