Reference Grade Amps

[firearm12]

Hi Guys,

I hear and read about reference grade amps quite a lot e.g. Marantz have a separate line of reference products. May anyone please guide what is exactly a reference grade and any perceptible differences from normal amps and why they cost a lot above

 

[Fantastic]

Hi Guys,

I hear and read about reference grade amps quite a lot e.g. Marantz have a separate line of reference products. May anyone please guide what is exactly a reference grade and any perceptible differences from normal amps and why they cost a lot above

Often they cost very much more because your pocket is so full of cash that you want to throw it away!
Can you get equipment that can satisfy your ears at much lower cost ? Sure. Just look around. You are the judge.
But if you find the Lamborghini better to go from your house to the corner shop it's your call ! You should do what you want to !
Cheers.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

A manufacturer can paint whatever words they want on the front of their amplifiers. Quite probably, the makers of truly "reference-grade" transparent amplifiers won't.

On the other hand, if you like the products of a particular manufacturer, for sound signature, reliability, serviceability, functionality etc etc, then it is just a case of accepting that, whether it is signature, reference, or whatever, they have different ways of naming their ranges. It's like model numbers, but a bit more human and more effective marketing --- but that is no reason not to buy the "Reference" range if you put it to the test and like it. Just don't take those words too literally.

 

[asliarun]

Hi Guys,

I hear and read about reference grade amps quite a lot e.g. Marantz have a separate line of reference products. May anyone please guide what is exactly a reference grade and any perceptible differences from normal amps and why they cost a lot above

Marketing speak. Like a platinum credit card.

What it should mean is an amp that is good enough and powerful enough that you can stop bothering about it in your chain. That is, transparent and with sufficent power reserve.

 

[Ambio]

Hi Guys,

I hear and read about reference grade amps quite a lot e.g. Marantz have a separate line of reference products. May anyone please guide what is exactly a reference grade and any perceptible differences from normal amps and why they cost a lot above

Reliability and better specifications. If you got the money and planning to keep the amp forever then go for the reference otherwise you can settle down with the "normal" amps.

Normally, in an average setup you wouldn't able to tell the difference.....but somehow a bigger and better power supply for similar spec'ed amps tend to sound better........but again.....it depends on how hard you are going to drive the amps to their limits to perceive those difference.

Good luck!

 

[firearm12]

Often they cost very much more because your pocket is so full of cash that you want to throw it away!
Can you get equipment that can satisfy your ears at much lower cost ? Sure. Just look around. You are the judge.
But if you find the Lamborghini better to go from your house to the corner shop it's your call ! You should do what you want to !
Cheers.

So,, as expected its much gimmick, and we could save thousands of dollars for ourselves by buying more worthy equipment. Still wondering if a normal human being and a non-audiophile like me can feel differences in sound apart from placebo :sad:

 

[bhagwan]

I do not know much about Marantz Reference Amplifiers;
but, some of these amps [pics appended below] sure look nice - to me at least - so if they 'do' happen to sound good - what is the down side if they set you back a bit - finances are very 'relative' [I feel] !

Caviet - The Room & Up Stream Electronics & Speakers & Ancillary gear also need to be up to the mark to be in a position to appreciate the true performance of Hi Fi Products.
Musical Preferences / Listening ability etc. all need to be 'fine tuned' & lots of effort is required - it is not about fancy gear - the understanding for it too is required & takes years of effort etc. to get on to the right track...

 

[CLEARCUT]

With the word reference we can take limited edition. Extra care taken products. Build with hand picked elements and special personal tweaking with the comparison of the original sound and already burnt in before landing in customers hand makes them different from the same product with out the name reference. But nowadays it has become marketing gimmick. But the really highend does not cheat but they charge heavy with adding reference. Whatever may be if anybody is satisfied with the name reference and finds some difference it is ones on taste. But it will slim their purses heavily. In resale they go to suffer a lot unless they find a person with same frequency and affordable

 

[bhagwan]

Still wondering if a normal human being and a non-audiophile like me can feel differences in sound apart from placebo :sad:

What you write is probably true.
It is not easy for most people to find out / tell the differance between 2 audio set ups.
Most people cannot even find out what or where the phantom centre is in a audio set up.
Forget getting into sound stage / width / depth / pace / timing / tone / texture / palpability etc. etc. [I know all these are mere adjectives for you] = sorry !
Sir,
Audio is a very serious hobby.
Starts off as a fling with audio gear & later if you are lucky and have the right friends / guidance etc. can become a very serious hobby.
I do not blame you - for what you feel & write - it is 100 % correct. To a 'non trained' eye / ear all of this audio is just a big mumbo jumbo....

I am not so sure if this example is correct - but if I were to watch an Indian Classical Dance Recital - Student & Teacher - I would not know what was right / better - probable I would find the pupil [hopefully a beautiful 20 + your lady] to be a 'better' dancer viz-a-viz the teacher who may be in her late 50's but may possess higher Technical Provence & grace that I may never understand - since I have not been following or have never trained in that art form...

 

[bhagwan]

Often they cost very much more because your pocket is so full of cash that you want to throw it away!
Cheers.

How I wish I had the Pocket [rather bags] full of cash - so I could throw it on this :-

The new Boulder 3060 Class-A Power Amplifier retails for $115,000 - Bornrich

I am sure I will need a 'suitcase' full of cash for this one !!
:sad:

 

[dheerajin]

If company writes reference on their equipments.....in other words.....they cant make better than this...so whether one appreciates or not ,he or she has to shell out a lot...

lot of in this category are with glossy chromy appearance just to lure people
with show off attitude:lol:

 

[cyber_cat]

Better specs, better components, better styling, more testing.

They do make a difference from their stock products but buy how much you will need to decide.

This trend is there even in PC industry. Hand picked will be priced more and do perform better.

 

[firearm12]

I am not so sure if this example is correct - but if I were to watch an Indian Classical Dance Recital - Student & Teacher - I would not know what was right / better - probable I would find the pupil [hopefully a beautiful 20 + your lady] to be a 'better' dancer viz-a-viz the teacher who may be in her late 50's but may possess higher Technical Provence & grace that I may never understand - since I have not been following or have never trained in that art form...

I like this example :clapping:

 

[Fantastic]

Most 'reference' equipment have an optimum supply for the product and use very good engineering materials and practices. That alone should make them last longer than low cost commercial offerings. However when it comes to how they sound you can't say. They will usually be good but you 'might' find less expensive ones that you might like better.
After having spent so much on the innards ( making it quite expensive) they will spend a ton on the appearance also. Their market will also be much smaller. So they end up being much pricier.
If you have the money and it doesn't pinch your pocket then you should look closely at the 'ref' products. If you don't have deep pockets then maybe you can use them as a reference to pick your lower cost product. So either way it's useful evaluating them !

 

[ranjeetrain]

Hi Guys,

I hear and read about reference grade amps quite a lot e.g. Marantz have a separate line of reference products. May anyone please guide what is exactly a reference grade and any perceptible differences from normal amps and why they cost a lot above

Let me start by setting the tone for "Reference grade".

What is "Reference grade"?

"Reference grade" indicates a superlative quality. It promises a very high level of performance. It promises an ideal behavior.

What "Reference grade" isn't?

It isn't an absolute line. It isn't a guarantee of a certain level or performance. Because there are no established performance rules in the audio world to begin with. It isn't a clear line on one side of which all components are not-reference grade and on other side all reference-grade.

"Reference grade" also isn't a ticket to obnoxious price tags. It certainly isn't a means to cheat people out of their hard earned money. However, in real life the usage of the term "Reference grade" is very loose. So loose that it is mostly misused than used correctly.

Getting off the theory, if I were to choose some components that I have (personally) found to be reference grade and can recommend anyone - it will have to begin with the same Marantz reference grade components you mention. The Marantz amps are very highly underrated. The reason lies in people's mindset. People often relate reference grade with price tag rather than actual performance.

Some other Manufacturers I can associate with "Reference grade" would be - Goldmund, Macintosh, Gryphon, Accuphase, Luxman, Pass Labs, Threshold etc. Please note the list is not comprehensive by any means.

Perceptible difference are obvious to anyone with an open mind. When you hear a reference grade setup (not a component alone) you immediately recognize things you never thought possible (unless the person indeed has an unevolved listening ability). The point I am trying to make is - one needs to have an open mind and some "listening ability" (vs habit of hearing casually/inattentively) to be able to perceive the difference.

Reference grade components cost a lot due to increased production cost. Reference grade components are built to very tight tolerances which causes production cost to climb up. Reference grade components also take a lot of research before getting approved for production. The "cost-to-develop" is way higher for reference grade components. So is the post-production issues. Reference grade components have a comparatively much smaller market. They need much more specialized marketing, distribution, and supply-chain. Consequently, it adds to their cost at each step.

So there are valid reasons why reference grade components cost a lot. Though there is no dearth of companies trying to play with the buyer's mindset by misusing the term and put the label on their offerings in order to add a premium on the price.

 

[sunder]

Hello friends, The journey into Fine tuning the system, not ended without few of these: Changing- Sources ,Amplifiers, Speakers, Upgrading internal components, Placement, Room Treatment, Expensive Accessories, High end Cables, High end Fuses, Cleansed Power supply. Still, craving for some refinements. Yes, I have done all those things by spending plenty of Money and the satisfaction is still far away and it vexes me. In this point, I recall the golden time of 70's 80's : In that time, I was simply delighted and extremly pleased with Japanese and German Boomboxes of Sharp, JVC, Grundig, Telefunken. They were simply amazing with saturated, convincing good musical sound. But those Gems are vanished. But now, the high priced, rack full of seperates, mostly dissapoint us. Again I am vexed.

Regards,
sunder.

 

[mpw]

sunder,

whats your rig like ?

can you put up pics somewhere ?

whats vexing you ?

what is the sound you desire relative to the genre/s of music you listen to ?

mpw

 

[asliarun]

To add to what Ranjeetrain said above, I think the right adjective for "reference" grade components - is "benchmark" or "baseline".

Meaning - that component can be used to build a system that ultimately produces sound at a level of quality that is considered the benchmark or baseline - to which sound from other systems can be compared to.

This is extremely important and well understood in the scientific world. Even fundamental principles (what is one meter, what is one kilo) have a well defined and carefully defined benchmark. So when someone says something even basic like "my room is 3 meters wide", everyone derives the same meaning from that statement.

It is worth noting that while the audiophile industry is so scientific and engineering driven in its approach (look at the plethora of measurements and statistics that manufacturers and reviewers freely share!), there has been no attempt made to define and commonly agree upon a true benchmark/baseline/reference point.

Sorry, "like a live concert" doesn't cut it. What is really needed to take this hobby closer to a scientific and systematic pursuit - is to define this properly. Say, something like, "benchmark is defined as how this sounds in Studio X".

I don't care if everyone doesn't have access to Studio X, or don't even have details of what equipment Studio X uses. That is unimportant. Just as it is unimportant for everyone to have an atomic clock that defines what "1 second" truly is.

What is supremely important however is for people to understand and hear this benchmark sound, so that they can listen to their system and make a true and correct comparison. They can then figure out for themselves if they are moving closer or farther from the benchmark when they make an equipment change or when they listen to a sub-optimal re-recording or when they change their room or room treatment.

And if you are going to say that "sound is subjective" and is unlike physical attributes that science measures and defines, fine. But then please note that, by definition, words like "reference" are meaningless.

And personally, I don't see why sound should treated any differently when science does so very well for hundreds of other physical properties, many of which are far more subtle and difficult to comprehend or interact with.

So, tl;dr: define the goal post first, if you want to play the game. Otherwise, we are just kicking around a ball with no purpose. And audiophiles will tell you, you can only know what the goal post is after you kick around this ball for a few years and after you spend Y amount of money. Which is a funny way to play a sport, if you think about it.

 

[jls001]

"Reference" or "Signature" or such similar monikers are a particular manufacturer's best, the pinnacle of what they're capable, usually made in limited numbers, and priced at a premium due to the low production run. It would usually boast of premium parts, higher grade of construction, and better sonics. The term should be taken in the context of that manufacturer, as it may or may not be comparable to the Reference or Signature from other OEMs.

 

[dheerajin]

Hello friends, The journey into Fine tuning the system, not ended without few of these: Changing- Sources ,Amplifiers, Speakers, Upgrading internal components, Placement, Room Treatment, Expensive Accessories, High end Cables, High end Fuses, Cleansed Power supply. Still, craving for some refinements. Yes, I have done all those things by spending plenty of Money and the satisfaction is still far away and it vexes me. In this point, I recall the golden time of 70's 80's : In that time, I was simply delighted and extremly pleased with Japanese and German Boomboxes of Sharp, JVC, Grundig, Telefunken. They were simply amazing with saturated, convincing good musical sound. But those Gems are vanished. But now, the high priced, rack full of seperates, mostly dissapoint us. Again I am vexed.

Regards,
sunder.

Exactly sunder...Few days ago I met a gentleman in his 60s..now he is into
headphones..
When he started his story I thought , just another audiophile with his experiments with gears...but this was something special, when I went to his house and saw his gears..6 set-of speakers(all top of the line), 5 amps and 3 DACs and 2 TT. When I asked him how much you spend till now , he said he stopped calculating but could be around 2 crores.

and he exactly repeated the same words- he has done all the things any audiophile could, but satisfaction was far far away. Because no amp and speakers can produce all the frequency successfully. Same genre sounds different in different system, and if you like variety of music then no system can satisfy you. So he gave up not because of money involved, because of
craving and vexing.
For me best thing is I have the liberty to bring the amp and speakers to my home and listen to them:yahoo: