Reference Grade Amps

[firearm12]

Great to hear the views of all of you great guys. Thank you.

 

[Ambio]

Exactly sunder...Few days ago I met a gentleman in his 60s..now he is into
headphones..
When he started his story I thought , just another audiophile with his experiments with gears...but this was something special, when I went to his house and saw his gears..6 set-of speakers(all top of the line), 5 amps and 3 DACs and 2 TT. When I asked him how much you spend till now , he said he stopped calculating but could be around 2 crores.

and he exactly repeated the same words- he has done all the things any audiophile could, but satisfaction was far far away. Because no amp and speakers can produce all the frequency successfully. Same genre sounds different in different system, and if you like variety of music then no system can satisfy you. So he gave up not because of money involved, because of
craving and vexing.
For me best thing is I have the liberty to bring the amp and speakers to my home and listen to them:yahoo:

The gentleman isn't the only one to become reclusive and fade away from the HIFi world. I have many similar gentlemen over here. Most have one thing in common - they all believe money will buy you the best sound.

Somehow, this group of people start their musical journey reading from Stereophiles or TAS. How many of us here didn't refer to their review before making a decision?

One fine gentleman was introduced to me by a mutual friend to help out his setup. We exchanged several emails and advised him to do a proper room FR measurement before moving to next step. I was using the free REW Room EQ but he bought the professional room measurement unit. He measured and saw the problem and went on to treat the room using whatever things the local dealers suggested. The problem remained. He changed his TAD Refereance 1 speakers to Wilson or Grand Utopia. Changed his amp, I think, one of them was the Boulder. His cables alone costs more than my SL.

Now, it has been about 4 years. He didnt reply to my messages nor visited me. My house is just 300 meter from the recreational club that he frequent weekly. He faded away from the local HIFi forum. The mutual friend told me that the last he heard from him was when he wanted to sell of some of his equipment. He told me that the gentleman was fed up of HIFi.

Contrary to what TAS or Stereophile told us, scientifically it has been proven that human could not tell the difference between live and reproduced sound. the experiment was conducted in the 50s and 60s using primitive amps and speakers by today's standard.

There is inherent problem with stereo. That's why Kal Rubinson has given up perfecting stereo and preferring multi channel. It takes understanding and a lot of experiment until you understand what and how the real natural sound sounds like. India is a vast country, if you get a chance to reach the rural area and demo to them a stereo and mono sound you would be surprise what they really prefer. ( I am not sugesting we all should go mono). Which of these two sound is more relaxing?

 

[dheerajin]

Ambio,

True..but can you tell any music system which can do justice with all the available genre...

Genre could be-rock , heavy metal,death metal, thrash, soft rock, pop, hip hop,R&B, Trance, Psychedelic Rock, western classical,hindustani, Carnatic...etc.etc..

The gentleman I met has perfectly dedicated hall(you can do a marriage ceremony there) for music. He still listen to the music with his $$$$headphone
and gets satisfaction in them.

 

[Ambio]

Ambio,

True..but can you tell any music system which can do justice with all the available genre...

Genre could be-rock , heavy metal,death metal, thrash, soft rock, pop, hip hop,R&B, Trance, Psychedelic Rock, western classical,hindustani, Carnatic...etc.etc..

The gentleman I met has perfectly dedicated hall(you can do a marriage ceremony there) for music. He still listen to the music with his $$$$headphone
and gets satisfaction in them.

I am not surprised at all why this gentleman did not get his sound right. When you got a hall that size the ideal speakers would be those like JBLPro. I do get opportunity to hear these speakers when they setup for big events. I think if I spend more time with those speakers at venues like that then there is no way I would enjoy my room sound.

Heavy metal, death metal are not music. They are just loud funky sound from huge high powered speakers. Speakers with power rating more than 4000W and they use tens of them. You cannot be expected to get the same impact with 100 or 500watt speakers in a stereo setup.

 

[captrajesh]

Contrary to what TAS or Stereophile told us, scientifically it has been proven that human could not tell the difference between live and reproduced sound. the experiment was conducted in the 50s and 60s using primitive amps and speakers by today's standard.

This is a huge news to me! Could you provide some more information of the experiment!

 

[dheerajin]

I am not surprised at all why this gentleman did not get his sound right. When you got a hall that size the ideal speakers would be those like JBLPro. I do get opportunity to hear these speakers when they setup for big events. I think if I spend more time with those speakers at venues like that then there is no way I would enjoy my room sound.

Heavy metal, death metal are not music. They are just loud funky sound from huge high powered speakers. Speakers with power rating more than 4000W and they use tens of them. You cannot be expected to get the same impact with 100 or 500watt speakers in a stereo setup.

Ambio...
Dont underestimate anyone..
That gentleman is having 35 years of experience in this field..and he is renowened consultant and does some high end consulting around the world in audio.
Can you answer my specific question..is there any system , which can do justice with all the genere....
He got fed up because of the same reason for which i am asking the question...

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

... he has done all the things any audiophile could, but satisfaction was far far away. Because no amp and speakers can produce all the frequency successfully.

I wonder one thing: he spent so much on electronics and speakers: did he spend anything on measuring and treating his room?

Some people, and they are not idiots, although I understand that it is not a popular point of view amongst others, maintain that, these days, it is trivial, and not particularly expensive unless a great deal of output power is needed, to design and make electronics (DAC, amplifier, etc) that is absolutely transparent --- and what could be more "reference" than absolutely transparent?

Personally, I suspect that they are right --- but I still doubt that every amplifier off every production line is absolutely transparent, because that would require that there are no mistakes in the design and build, and that the amplifier has not been designed not to be, as in tuned to some particular house sound signature, or perhaps, as a rather cynical possibility, to sound "worse" than the models they want to charge more for.

Some of the people who make that claim also say that all amplifiers, within the bounds of their design, and with precisely matched levels, sound the same. In my uneducated opinion, it seems to me that that would be true if all amplifiers were designed for transparency, but I find it hard to believe that they are. Even those with "Reference" painted on the front may have actually been designed to a house sound, appealing to that company's market, and "reference" may mean anything but transparent.

I find all that very interesting. I also find it very interesting that, of those I have been listening to/reading recently, the same people tend to say that when it comes to speakers, all those bets are off, the idea of high fidelity (reproducing exactly what is on the recording) is a myth, it is simply not possibly to really reproduce a live performance in your house, and... hey, listen and buy what you like the sound of hyeah:

This is a huge news to me! Could you provide some more information of the experiment!

I remember reading of a test long ago, in the days of acoustic-horn gramophones, in which members of the public claimed that they actually could not tell the difference between the recording, and the same musicians playing the same thing. It was also said that the musicians had worked hard to sound like the gramophone --- which, with bowed-string instruments, could probably be done. Scratchy violin, anyone?

I expect other such tests have been done. It might be possible to be "fooled" by something simple like a solo instrument, but anything more complex seems unlikely.

On a recent Gearslutz it-should-sound-like-the-original discussion, someone said something to the effect of, "Oh come on... How many people here, seriously, could close their eyes and not know if they were listening to the band or to their monitor speakers?" I don't think any hands went up.

 

[dheerajin]

Thad, that guy has done everything , which any audiophile could have done...his listening hall is designed according to MBL..so you can imagine his scale...but one thing is for sure, he has got the clinical ears and that is the root of all evil[emoji2]

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

he has got the clinical ears and that is the root of all evil

Doesn't there come a time when we ought to just enjoy the music? In a way, life is easier for those of us who cannot afford that perpetual upgrade and dissatisfaction.

But is your friend happy with his headphones? Or is that going to be just another book in the series?

 

[dheerajin]

He is happy with his headphone till now from past 2 years..

Just few seconds ago..i have written same thing on some thread that you have said..
Congrats..man..
Day you decide to stop listening to sound and start listening to music, your system would become worth million dollars..

 

[captrajesh]

I remember reading of a test long ago, in the days of acoustic-horn gramophones, in which members of the public claimed that they actually could not tell the difference between the recording, and the same musicians playing the same thing. It was also said that the musicians had worked hard to sound like the gramophone

On a recent Gearslutz it-should-sound-like-the-original discussion, someone said something to the effect of, "Oh come on... How many people here, seriously, could close their eyes and not know if they were listening to the band or to their monitor speakers?" I don't think any hands went up.

A friend of mine is very skeptical of tests / studies/ surveys published, be it on print media or electronic media. What he says is, predominantly all these activities have an ulterior motive, a hidden agenda. After he has factually proven the one that I had brought about and also of a couple of other surveys, I now tend to agree with him.

Ok let's put these reports aside. You listen to lots of live Carnatic music. Can you personally say that you won't be able to find any difference between live concert and recorded music!

I can confidently say that I find a night and day difference between two.

I expect other such tests have been done. It might be possible to be "fooled" by something simple like a solo instrument, but anything more complex seems unlikely.

Glad that you disagree with the view, albeit partially.

 

[Ambio]

This is a huge news to me! Could you provide some more information of the experiment!

I did mention about this in the Ambiophonics thread. Google for Briggs and Acoustic Research. The earlier experiment by Edison was tailored to sound like the gramophone.

Ambio...
Dont underestimate anyone..
That gentleman is having 35 years of experience in this field..and he is renowened consultant and does some high end consulting around the world in audio.
Can you answer my specific question..is there any system , which can do justice with all the genere....
He got fed up because of the same reason for which i am asking the question...

I hope he is not Burge Cooper.

Let me get this right, he got 35 years of experience and now he finds the most realistic sound is that coming from his headphone? Something is wrong somewhere....very wrong.

And answering your second question - nope! Just like you won't find a singer who could do rock, tenor, Carnatic or metal all at the same time so too you won't find a system that will do all equally well..... But you don't need high resolution system to listen to the thrash metal anyway. You need loudness. You don't need SACd or DSD format for those stuff.

 

[dheerajin]

Ambio forget about metal..just give example for pop, western classical, bollywood and trance. .
Do not be a judge..just mention your
Doubts....

 

[Ambio]

Ambio forget about metal..just give example for pop, western classical, bollywood and trance. .
Do not be a judge..just mention your
Doubts....

I am sorry Dheerajin. I am not being confrontational. I don't know what trance is but for pop, western classical and some Bollywood I would say SL, Harbeth, Martin Logan, Magnepan, ProAc and many many more. OTOH, I have heard Harbeth to sound like xxxx in some setup for the same track we auditioned.

If sound is not subjective than there cannot be somany types of speakers. Sound is subjective. Audiophiles are extremely sensitive if their system do not get recognised by other audiophiles. Most importantly they are afraid if being wrong. But in private or among their followers they ooze with Opinions about cables or amplifiers.

I don't judge but if I do point out to satisfy my own curiosity.

 

[dheerajin]

Ambio..there are measuring equipments for sound but there are no measuring equipment for hearing capabilities. So you can not tell that something is wrong with other's ears...no one can judge other's liking for music...thats why i said - dont be a judge..because you dont have certificate for best ears.
Like no system can reproduce all the frequecies, no two man can translate the same music same way to the brain...
So it is easy to say that...something is wrong with the man who is finding solace in headphones....while he is busy giving audio consulting to the cricket team

 

[Fantastic]

The other day I was at a wedding. The man playing the percussion instrument passed by very close to me. This isn't bass ! The leather ends must be about 9 inches in diameter. The sound was so powerful, impactful, I could feel it in my chest. I've seen a lot of huge home systems globally but I don't think anyone could reproduce that sound accurately. CERTAINLY not with the impact it had !

This is why people who love music go for live programs. You just CANNOT replicate them accurately at home! That is true even if the show is 'amplified'.
Check out jazz shows. They really are an eye opener! BUT, you need to be reasonably close to the musicians . From a distance the impact is lost.

Headphones are great and can do things that many speakers cannot . Especially as they need to produce only miniscule amounts of sound and do not have problems with room acoustics. BUT they 'cannot' provide 'physical impact' that speakers and live music can ! So they are great on their own, but further away from 'live' sound !

 

[Ambio]

Ambio..there are measuring equipments for sound but there are no measuring equipment for hearing capabilities. So you can not tell that something is wrong with other's ears...no one can judge other's liking for music...thats why i said - dont be a judge..because you dont have certificate for best ears.
Like no system can reproduce all the frequencies, no two man can translate the same music same way to the brain...
So it is easy to say that...something is wrong with the man who is finding solace in headphones....while he is busy giving audio consulting to the cricket team

I am not saying something is wrong with anyone's hearing. You are implying that. You alluded that the gentleman after 35 years and several high end stuff found solace in headphone because all the high end couldn't reproduce the realism he was looking for. But his headphone is now closest to what he was seeking for.

That is strange to me. I for one never commented on anyone's equipment as sound is subjective. Even if you have live reference that may not be an absolute reference. Can Harbeth reproduce Ray Charles piano accurately? Theoretically it shouldn't because Ray Charles was always using a digital piano while Harbeth was designed using a Steinway as its reference. To me it doesn't make a difference as musically Harbeth satisfied me. Maybe to Ray Charles Harbeth may sound odd because his reference was his piano at close range.

But still if someone prefers a headphone over a MBL then I am really curious to know what difference he is getting from headphone. We can adapt to accept headphone sound to be better but it was never meant to be natural. Try putting a headphone on a small kid and see their first time reaction. Sound inside the head can never be natural but just like we have accepted stereo to be natural we can adapt overtime.

That's all I have to say.

p.s. I never claim my ears are to be the best. If they were, I wouldnt have taken 2 hours to find out my speakers were connected out of phase. It just happened last week. And my ears are totally hopeless to tell a difference in most cables that most of the guys here could do. I am not an audiophile but a realist.

 

[dheerajin]

Ambio,

Thanks for justification..

main point is the question which i had asked you...not headphone not MBL and not what is natural and what is not..

If anyone has liking for variety of music and for different genres he has to make the connections again with different amps with different set of speakers, then
he simply gets irritated. Even from the same genre one song sound good on one and other song good on other system, then one has to remain content by choosing any one system and gentleman in the question has done the same by choosing portable system, as simple as that. Its his personal choice and not an example to followed by others.
FM SUNDER has done similar remark about the quest to audio nirvana, so I was simply giving similar example of that gentleman.
It was no way to make a statement that , what is being followed by that gentleman is true in this audio world. And sound signature contains attributes of source , Amp and speaker not speaker alone that you have given example of.

 

[sunder]

Hi mpw, dheerajin, I have had many hifi system seperates and speakers in the past. Let me write up something briefly about one of my experience.

I bought brand new pair of Arcam FMJ series P1 monoblocks and Arcam FMJ series C31 preamplifier + Spendor S8E Floorstander speakers. The source was the famous Rotel RCD965BX CDP + Good quality ICs and Speaker cables. The total value was 550k. The sound was transparent and not much impressive. Still I played for several weeks for breaking in. Also I did change the speaker position to different angles for the perfect placement.

Then I swapped the CDP for Marantz CD17MKlll, and the sound became slightly thicker but with slightly less pronouncing high notes.
[ here I regret to say that I was cheated by an used-market dealer who sold the cdp to me for the very high price @55k than the market value with the problematic tray mechanism. Later, I couldnt rectify and resale even for 10k ].

Then I decided to swap the entire ICs and speaker cables for the very expensive VDH cables . The cost was 75k. So that I could hear the sound as relaxed as the musicians placed by comfortable distance. But in the sound, there was no attack, punch and low grunt as I expected.

Then I swapped CDP for the very high end and highly upgraded- Resolution Audio's-Opus 21 CDP as the seperates of power supply + DAC/Transport connected by high end Exousias power Umbilical cord. The value was 110k. That was too bright and not mellow and sweet.

Then I decided to replace all the stock fuses with the exotic German fuses of Hifi Tuning supreme fuses and the cost was 15k , then I swapped all the stock power cables for Cardas, Siltek power cables. The value was 45k. Still the sound was not significantly improved.

Then I decided to add the V-DAC of Musical fidelity, and the value was 15k. Yes! there was an improvement, but not enough as I expected as I spent hugely. Again I swapped the V-DAC for Paradisea (Mhdt Lab)- NOS tube DAc and the value was 22k, after this, yes, there was an further improvement with somewhat warmness and likeable dynamics but without the low grunt as it should be.

I became tired and I came to know that the main culprits are the Arcam amplifiers! Which were not capable to yield the low grunt and attack. But those were very neutral , very transparent and fatigue free. Then, sadly I sold the Arcams at a huge loss. Since I didnt want to enter again into high power, high end gears, I had to sell the finest Spendor S8E floorstander at a huge loss. It could be avoided the above said heavy loss and the anxieties, if I was lucky enough to find a good sounding Low-Mid budget system at a reasonable price.

Now I own the vintage Grundig integ.amp + Ayon CD-07 + Akai GX77 spool deck + Pioneer PL518 TT + Spendor S3/5R2 bookshelf -connected all with high end cables. I am convinced myself as this is enough and I dont wish to spend beyond this.

Sorry friends, I took the big space to narrate one of my desperate attempt.

Thank you,
Cheers.
sunder

 

[amit11]

@sunder

Not trying to conclude anything, just trying to understand your point. In the audio chain, amplifier is definitely very important and no need to spend very exorbitantly. Is it one of the points u r trying to convey?