Reference Grade Amps

[Thad E Ginathom]

A friend of mine is very skeptical of tests / studies/ surveys published, be it on print media or electronic media. What he says is, predominantly all these activities have an ulterior motive, a hidden agenda. After he has factually proven the one that I had brought about and also of a couple of other surveys, I now tend to agree with him.

Probably most of us like (or did before the internet) the glossy mags, and probably most of us have read, and will read, tests and reviews --- and probably many of us will take them with a pinch of salt. Even amongst ourselves, I feel there is a wish to be nice and "publish" positive, rather than negative reviews. The tests are never blind. All sorts of bias and preference comes into play.

But there are people like Sean Olive, who are serious about refining the testing process. He works for JBL. Is he interested in selling JBL products? I am sure he is, in fact he recently said something like better tests make better products. (I probably could find the link)

Ok let's put these reports aside. You listen to lots of live Carnatic music. Can you personally say that you won't be able to find any difference between live concert and recorded music!
I can confidently say that I find a night and day difference between two.

I can confidently say there will be too. You might have misunderstood: that is what I was saying! HiFi, however big the H and the F cannot put a "real" band or orchestra, perhaps not even a real singer.

Sadly, though, even the worst hifi will sound better than a lot of carnatic live concerts, but that's another story.

Please see my signature. Part of the process is allowing ourselves to believe. If we did not, there wouldn't be any point in reading a book, watching a movie, listening to music. You might say, we meet the music half way, and if we then feel like we actually had the experience of the musicians, that is one great experience. Even though the reality is that we didn't.

Ambio..there are measuring equipments for sound but there are no measuring equipment for hearing capabilities.

There are lots of tests and measuring equipment. I had no idea that my hearing was so bad now until a recent hearing test showed it, and that is just the basic audiometry we get at the ear doc. People who listen for a living require training, and their training can be tested.

Like no system can reproduce all the frequecies,

Can it not? I understand that some speakers would not go so low, and some might not go so high, but, within the human audible range, I'm surprised to hear you say that no system can reproduce all the frequencies?

So it is easy to say that...something is wrong with the man who is finding solace in headphones....

Oh sure... I'm not going to knock his experience, or his conclusions, or his decision to go for headphones. I like headphones

Whoa! Where did the "Reference Grade" amplifiers go! hyeah:

 

[dheerajin]

Can it not? I understand that some speakers would not go so low, and some might not go so high, but, within the human audible range, I'm surprised to hear you say that

Thad , may be a technical person can explain it better...but if any system(amp+spkr) combo can reproduce all the audible frequencies then all genre would sound equally good and it will be a all rounder system. And no one can say that this system is warm,bright..etc

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I can think of reasons, some already mentioned, why a system should not produce all frequencies, or at least produce them evenly, ie with a flat frequency response; I can think of environmental reasons (ie room) why we might not hear them even if it did, but to say that no system can produce all the frequencies?

then all genre would sound equally good and it will be a all rounder system. And no one can say that this system is warm,bright..etc

That's what we want, isn't it?

No, I can answer myself: it is not what everyone wants. Some buy bright, some buy warm, because people buy the sound they like. Those people may well find that they prefer a certain kind of music on their warm/bright/whatever systems and that another kind of music may not be suited.

But no system? I just hapened to be looking at the frequency response curve of a Sansa Clip a couple of days ago. Flat. A two-penny portable can do that but hifi can't?

Of course, yes, then there's speakers, and rooms, and ears...

 

[amit11]

I think that set of others factors like attack, tonal balance, timing etc are one of the main factors which contribute to a system not able to be fair to all genres, even though they may be reproducing all audible frequencies.

 

[jls001]

To indulge in a bout of retrospection: May be we should accept that there's no nirvana in audio, but that each steps inches us ever closer to that goal?

Enjoy the journey. Each milestone reached allows us to see the next one, and perhaps eggs us on to reach out to it. For to be complacent with what we've reached thus far is to stagnate.

This begs the question: what is our audio goal?

 

[dheerajin]

Thad..just for the info read the link below..which shows that for achieving flat frequency response, designer put lot of math into it, which makes that system expensive and similaly how human hearing perceive frequencies..
And any device showing flat frequency response in its brochure is subjective...it could be just for one strumming of one wire of guitar...so dont go by brochure...all good companies knows that good frequency response and linearity can be achieved in Class-A...so they make amps with 50 KG weight just to achieve that frequency reproduction...and anything beyond that class is mere compromise for price...nowadays class- D is coming up but this class is much complicated than others and still in developing stage.

http://www.centerpointaudio.com/HowToUnderstandFlatFrequencyResponseGraph.aspx

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

It is a complex subject. A flat frequency response at the speaker may not be one at our ears. There is a heap of stuff to understand, and I am only a beginner, and also hampered by being innumerate and having huge trouble with maths.

designer put lot of math into it, which makes that system expensive and similaly how human hearing perceive frequencies..

I think that is called basic engineering, and if a designer is not expert at it, they don't have much hope! It's the bottom line. Even those who claim divine inspiration are not going to get very far with it unless they have completely mastered the basics. Well, excepting the pink unicorns, of course: they can do anything! :lol:

 

[Ambio]

It is a complex subject. A flat frequency response at the speaker may not be one at our ears.....

Our ears hear based on equal loudness curve such as Fletcher-Munson curve but it doesnt mean that that speaker must be designed as such.

Ideally, speakers should be flat. When it is is flat it will reproduce the sound without any alteration in the prerecorded frequencies level. However, speakers designers have slowly moved away from flat frequency and make measurement in room taking in to consideration of the floor reinforcement. Such speakers will not measure flat in anechoic chamber. Ideally it should still measure flat in the room with slight lift in the LF region.

My current and previous speakers have no manufacturer published FR chart. Furthermore, Some manufacturer may deliberately push frequencies in the 500Hz region to have more presence in the music.

My own room measurement doesn't sound engaging when measured flat.

 

[sunder]

@sunder

Not trying to conclude anything, just trying to understand your point. In the audio chain, amplifier is definitely very important and no need to spend very exorbitantly. Is it one of the points u r trying to convey?

amit, in the chain, that is needless to say that amplifier is important, rather the 'source' is much more important. So that I swapped many more CDPs and DACs.
Cheers.
sunder.

 

[Vinod.R]

As far as reference grade or quality amplifiers goes, here are a few things that come to my feeble mind:

1) Top notch parts are used in terms of capacitors, ICS, Mofsets, tubes or other such parts.

2) All the research that a company knows about its amplifier gets poured into it.

3) Some companies also provide better warranty and service to such reference grade amplifiers.

4) It shows a company what it can achieve if budget is not a constraint.

5) These amplifiers are usually stratospheric costly, as compared to the next below the line brothers.

6) Customers get charged a hefty premium to buy one. Some of them get certificates (snob value!) to show that they own a piece of premium equipment.

7) Not all companies are sincere in their reference grade amps, some simply pass of ordinary amplifiers as reference with a fancy chasis.

8) The technology gets filtered gradually to later mid line and entry level models once research and development costs have been met for such reference grade amplifiers.

9) This kind of one off is also applicable to other products such as speakers, AVRs, interconnects etc.

10) Resale value may be either extremely high or low depending on the success of the said amplifier.

11) Not all reference grade amplifiers are made equal. The sincerity of a company is reflected in its reference.

Vinod

 

[captrajesh]

The other day I was at a wedding. The man playing the percussion instrument passed by very close to me. This isn't bass ! The leather ends must be about 9 inches in diameter. The sound was so powerful, impactful, I could feel it in my chest. I've seen a lot of huge home systems globally but I don't think anyone could reproduce that sound accurately. CERTAINLY not with the impact it had

I can confidently say there will be too. You might have misunderstood: that is what I was saying! HiFi, however big the H and the F cannot put a "real" band or orchestra, perhaps not even a real singer.

True that! Be it the strike on a Drum membrane or a burst of Trumpet or even a pluck of a Guitar string, the micro nuances are so palpable and the dynamics are so great that recorded sound doesnt stand a chance.

Probably most of us like (or did before the internet) the glossy mags, and probably most of us have read, and will read, tests and reviews --- and probably many of us will take them with a pinch of salt. Even amongst ourselves, I feel there is a wish to be nice and "publish" positive, rather than negative reviews. The tests are never blind. All sorts of bias and preference comes into play.

But there are people like Sean Olive, who are serious about refining the testing process. He works for JBL. Is he interested in selling JBL products? I am sure he is, in fact he recently said something like better tests make better products. (I probably could find the link)

But unfortunately, there are scores of people on forums like these who rather than basing their opinion on personal experience, not only believe them blindly but also quoting them and trying to convince others to also do the same.

Part of the process is allowing ourselves to believe.

Yes, and as long as the basis of that belief is experiencing the occurrence of the event using our senses, we are on right path.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

True that! Be it the strike on a Drum membrane or a burst of Trumpet or even a pluck of a Guitar string, the micro nuances are so palpable and the dynamics are so great that recorded sound doesnt stand a chance.

Actually, it stands a better chance, assuming a good recording, over a hifi than it does over an auditorium PA system. But only 'better,' not necessarily perfect.

There have been two occasions recently, when, at unamplified house concerts, I have been really struck by the subtleties of the mridangam. When we hear the basic troke "Nam" (striking the tip of the first finger on the outer ring) in a concert hall, it is not that different from doing the same thing on a table top. When it is finger/skin ---> ear, there is so much more subtlety there.

This is probably reproducible, ie not impossible. Someone like Kanwar would be able to say what sort of investment would be needed to carry that subtlety from mic through speaker to our ears. Whilst I guess it is more than the usual Ahuja speakers we see on hall walls, I also suspect that it may not be as much as the cost of some "reference" grade home amplifiers!

 

[dheerajin]

LAYA project...

if you search on net..you will know what it is..
actually it is a special recording arrangement to listen different instruments(skin armored vadya) and they have successfully reproduced the each mrudangam (same as that) to give the idea what an instrument can produce the eefect of live music..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvCu8W79qDM

I have the album in FLAC/WAV ..so anyone wants to just listen to it in pure format...just contact me...

This thread is going somewhere...but wherever it is going ....going for the best...sorry OP

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

That's a really nice piece of music... thanks

 

[Fantastic]

The good speakers really take us close but they will 'never' be like the real thing. Is it because it is really impossible to get the exact same dispersion characteristic of the original musical instrument ( not just frequency response ) or also the acoustics of the room you are in, is hard to say.
While they all matter, I still think that you can't record anything exactly the same unless close miked and even that cannot replicate the instrument's dispersion characteristics.
For me, as long as it can get close to it for a particular price point, I'm happy. Then I concentrate on listening to the music I like and all sensitivity to how real or unreal my speakers are ,fades away quickly, till the music session is over.
I do notice that when I watch video concerts , I can accept quite a bit of loss in sound quality, IF I really like the music ! Same situation when listening in a darkened room ( no video) ! The sensitivity to the reduced sound quality fades away fairly soon with music that one likes.
And with a glass of spirit in hand you are all set to listen to anything especially with enjoyable company!

 

[dheerajin]

At the end its all enjoyment...so whatever system you have...if you are enjoying music then you are the richest person on earth...it is irrespective of what cables ,source,amp and speakers you have...and that is the bottom line..so stop listening to sound, start enjoying music

 

[fx20]

Sometime, when I looked at those so-called reference amps/speakers, I just wondering what was their referred point. And most of them just called themselves a reference without the reference.

To me this is somewhat doubtful and dubious. As we all have our preferred sound in our mind, the reference can be meaningless at some point. Perhaps the reference series is the top of the line products for a company, but again, they must list out their referred one or at least a referred specifiations. Otherwise it just annother gimmick for ripping.

 

[Vinod.R]

My personal take is this:

I judge a company by NOT how they make their reference gear, but by how they make their entry level products.

This tells us what the company really is. This is where the compromises are and a company's sincerity (or insincerity!) shines through.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Otherwise it just annother gimmick for ripping.

If the buyer gets what they want, then it can't be called a rip-off, unless the company misleads them.

My personal take is this:

I judge a company by NOT how they make their reference gear, but by how they make their entry level products.

This tells us what the company really is. This is where the compromises are and a company's sincerity (or insincerity!) shines through.

This seems like a pretty good policy.

I keep hearing that amplifier design and build is so well established that it is neither difficult nor expensive to produce "reference grade."

There used to be stories about mainframe computer upgrades to the effect that what a certain company did was to supply the same machine to everybody, but include components that slowed it down to the purchased specification. An expensive upgrade consisted of sending a guy to remove that component!

Is there an equivalent in the audio world, I wonder?

 

[fx20]

My personal take is this:

I judge a company by NOT how they make their reference gear, but by how they make their entry level products.

This tells us what the company really is. This is where the compromises are and a company's sincerity (or insincerity!) shines through.

This is a good take.

Do you aware of any amp company making a reference-like entry-level-price amp? I guess I can't think of any at the moment.