Room-Speaker setup and the importance of 5mm !

[sachinchavan 15865]

Darbars were held in open halls?

No. Darbaar were held in king’s courts, which were also called darbaars therefore. I was only pointing out that (as against what you wrote) North Indian classical music was mostly performed indoors, in well designed and furnished venues. Never outside like folk.

It’s only in recent decades (after loudspeakers became common) that we have classical music festivals like Sawai Gandharva held in open grounds.

BTW, try watching Ray’s ‘Jalsaghar’ - a classic film about a decadent landlord’s love for hosting classical performances in his music room (Jalsaghar) and the sacrifices he makes for it.

 

[arj]

A small correction:
While Carnatic classical was traditionally performed in temples, Hindustani classical (barring Dhrupad) was largely performed in Darbars (king’s/nawab’s courts) and light classical in kothis - both well-furnished indoors.

Both of these are pretty large spaces

I was told that most indian classical musicians tune their instruments at the start of the session so as to take into account the acoustics of Room+people. at least the experts, many others do it because the experts do it

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

I was told that most indian classical musicians tune their instruments at the start of the session so as to take into account the acoustics of Room+people. at least the experts, many others do it because the experts do it

Yes, they do. I used to get irked by someone like late Pandit Shivkumar Sharma who was very finicky about it and wouldn’t begin the concert till he was happy with the sound from the music system. I’ve attended concerts where he spent ease much as 20-30 mins on this. I wondered why couldn’t he set his instrument backstage and work with the sound engineers at the venue to get the settings right before the concert start time?

But as I got sensitised a little bit about both - classical music (how instruments get out of tune quickly) and audio (how much the venues and sound systems impact), I have become more tolerant. I can even enjoy the tuning as an integral part of the concert now.

Wonder how the western classical orchestras manage this, with so many instrument players. Probably the fact that they usually play at their home venues helps. Also I imagine better sound engineering and venue acoustics and management may have something to do with it. Like for example, in Mumbai, at Nehru Auditorium or NCPA, artists are usually happy with the sound and take minimum time to tune/start.

 

[Analogous]

No. Darbaar were held in king’s courts, which were also called darbaars therefore. I was only pointing out that (as against what you wrote) North Indian classical music was mostly performed indoors, in well designed and furnished venues. Never outside like folk.

It’s only in recent decades (after loudspeakers became common) that we have classical music festivals like Sawai Gandharva held in open grounds.

BTW, try watching Ray’s ‘Jalsaghar’ - a classic film about a decadent landlord’s love for hosting classical performances in his music room (Jalsaghar) and the sacrifices he makes for it.

Thanks. The halls I saw in palaces in Rajasthan, Delhi (Red Fort) Mysore etc were large halls with columns open to three sidesI was under the impression they were used as courts and for entertainment. Some palaces had large indoor halls ( invitation only?) but they were built in the 1800s.

Jalsagar is indeed a intimate study of a complex character; classic Satyajit Ray with his usual dedicated attention to the visual and music aesthetic.

But back on topic….every reflective surface near where the live performance is held or the speakers are placed will have some effect on the acoustics?

 

[jenson]

A small correction:
While Carnatic classical was traditionally performed in temples, Hindustani classical (barring Dhrupad) was largely performed in Darbars (king’s/nawab’s courts) and light classical in kothis - both well-furnished indoors.

No wonder they spent time architecting reverberating halls to maximize volume? more like massive horns(dome) in ceiling

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

Since you measure at the top of the speaker and your speaker is a stand mount, there is a possibility of a slight tilt of the speaker which might be reflecting in this 1.3 cm difference. Our floors are not perfectly flat. There is invariably a very minor tilt

Thanks @prem. I bought a level gauge and checked. There was indeed a tilt in both the speakers. Correcting it has made the image stronger and more textured. Thanks!

 

[alpha1]

My experience with my system is, while the position of the center image moves as I move laterally (not as little as nodding the head sideways, but actually shifting from one sofa seat to another, the tone or clarity doesn’t. I sit in the center for intent listening only because I like the image right in front of me (as well as the entire span of soundstage as possible). But even when I sit in the sofas on one side or another at other times, the tonality doesn’t change.

Tone and Timber doesn't depend upon the listening position significantly in this case assuming you are sitting around in the same spot. The speaker position decided how it interacts with the room. This doesn't hold for extreme cases obviously.

@sachinchavan 15865 & @reignofchaos
But why shouldn't it? Room issues are created because of frequency dependent reflections, absorptions, superpositions and standing waves. The speaker position is as important and as the ear position in the 3-dimension space. Ultimately whether a particular frequency's trough is encountered, or crest is encountered, or something in between, and its relation to other frequency across the spectrum (each having its own behavior) - highly depends on both source position as well as the point where we are listening / taking measurements.

Not at all. its the speaker position which is critical.

you will get a similiar tone ( not the Imaging) anywhere..even in the next room when it is right..it is the sound origin which is important to lock in not the ear position. If the other were the case everyone in the room would hear a very different sound which does not make sense,

Ofcourse it makes sense because we do hear different sounds based on where we are sitting. Surely you would be aware of the speaker directivity and eventual response at listener's position. And then driver integration also plays an important role in how it sounds (which is dependent on listener's location) Additionally, many speakers sound quite bright when heard nearfield, but sounds OK when seated more than 2 meter away (room absorption and reverb)

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

But why shouldn't it? Room issues are created because of frequency dependent reflections, absorptions, superpositions and standing waves. The speaker position is as important and as the ear position in the 3-dimension space. Ultimately whether a particular frequency's trough is encountered, or crest is encountered, or something in between, and its relation to other frequency across the spectrum (each having its own behavior) - highly depends on both source position as well as the point where we are listening / taking measurements.

Imagine a person standing in one corner of a room speaking and two other persons listening to him from two very different points in the room. Would they hear the same voice (barring decibel and directional differences) or different voices?

 

[Analogous]

Imagine a person standing in one corner of a room speaking and two other persons listening to him from two very different points in the room. Would they hear the same voice (barring decibel and directional differences) or different voices?

Isn’t that like a mono/ single channel source?

But having said that I am still trying to understand what @alpha1 is flagging in response to earlier posts.

Tone does not change anywhere in the room or does it?

Stereo imaging is limited within an area (edited) close to the sweet spot but may be wider if the speaker design is wide dispersion. But beyond the limits the image will shift. Is this not correct?

 

[mbhangui]

Imagine a person standing in one corner of a room speaking and two other persons listening to him from two very different points in the room. Would they hear the same voice (barring decibel and directional differences) or different voices?

A person speaking is very different than two speakers speaking. Each person at the two very different positions in the room will hear it the same (baring decibels). This is becaue the sound is coming from a precise single point position and even after reflections one can pinpoint with accuracy the source of the sound. There is no issue with imaging. Speakers are very different. First problem is the source are two different points. The sound from both the speakers have to be combined to give the stereo image. Depending on the position in the room, the distance from the two sources will become different and also the reflected sound will arrive very differently. Hence two different positions in the room will give a very different stereo image.

Using two speakers to represent the sound image is an imperfect, though the most practical way to playback what was recorded. A mono vocal recording from a single speaker will be much better but then you will loose the 2 dimensional image of the sound. It will be like listening to a single stationary singer at a single location but will sound more realistic

 

[reignofchaos]

Isn’t that like a mono/ single channel source?

But having said that I am still trying to understand what @alpha1 is flagging in response to earlier posts.

Tone does not change anywhere in the room or does it?

Stereo imaging is limited close to the sweet spot but may be wider if the speaker design is wide dispersion. But beyond the limits the image will shift. Is this not correct?

I don't want to engage with him and make it another back and forth but if your speaker has sufficiently wide dispersion, there is no reason for tone to change - especially if there is not much sidewall involvement like my case.

 

[arj]

Using two speakers to represent the sound image is an imperfect, though the most practical way to playback what was recorded. A mono vocal recording from a single speaker will be much better but then you will loose the 2 dimensional image of the sound. It will be like listening to a single stationary singer at a single location but will sound more realistic

Mono is how i prefer setting each individual speaker as well . suprrisingly you do get a depth on mono but no width

Tone does not change anywhere in the room or does it?

No tone does not..of course there is the room interaction on reflected sound which will affect but that does not change the tone ( perhaps bass frequencies)

 

[jenson]

all said and done, any change of position brings about a change in overall presentation. to me, this mostly has to do with tempering of bass, bringing about more detail and the most important part for me, wide sound stage...and this is not really system dependent...can be applicable for any..so for any one with a Sony three way deck, who doesn't want to invest in alternate systems, adding a stand, pulling it further into room or pushing it towards corner...all such jugads can bring about different perspectives...chances are you may like some of them..

whew...had to get that off my chest.

 

[Analogous]

This discussion is getting interesting with lots of insights, perspectives and opinions

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

A person speaking is very different than two speakers speaking. Each person at the two very different positions in the room will hear it the same (baring decibels). This is becaue the sound is coming from a precise single point position and even after reflections one can pinpoint with accuracy the source of the sound. There is no issue with imaging. Speakers are very different. First problem is the source are two different points. The sound from both the speakers have to be combined to give the stereo image. Depending on the position in the room, the distance from the two sources will become different and also the reflected sound will arrive very differently. Hence two different positions in the room will give a very different stereo image.

Using two speakers to represent the sound image is an imperfect, though the most practical way to playback what was recorded. A mono vocal recording from a single speaker will be much better but then you will loose the 2 dimensional image of the sound. It will be like listening to a single stationary singer at a single location but will sound more realistic

@mbhangui, please go through the posts that lead this. We aren’t debating the imaging or sound stage being the same if heard from different points in the room. We are talking about the tone being the same. What is your experience regarding that?

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Hi

While there can be multiple views on the finer aspects of this subject, I believe the main takeaways are useful to all of us :

1. Speaker placement and room interaction are critical to good sound. Small adjustments can make a bigger difference
2. There are several methods of arriving at a starting point - 1/3, Cardas, quarter wave and so on. One could experiment with each. Would love to hear opinions on which is best!
3. It is desirable for the tone to be even throughout the room. Not always possible but something to aim for.

Additional tips on how to get the most out of the room and speaker placement will be really helpful.

Irrespective of the method used, we need ears that can discern small changes as we move the speakers around. In my case, as I make incremental adjustments, I tend to lose track of which position sounded relatively better or worse. Any tips on this? Would it help to record and compare multiple recordings? A useful 'lifeline' would be to 'call a friend' to help

Cheers and good luck to all with the speaker crawl!

 

[reignofchaos]

Irrespective of the method used, we need ears that can discern small changes as we move the speakers around. In my case, as I make incremental adjustments, I tend to lose track of which position sounded relatively better or worse. Any tips on this? Would it help to record and compare multiple recordings? A useful 'lifeline' would be to 'call a friend' to help

Cheers and good luck to all with the speaker crawl!

I dare not do this on my own. I don't think I will be able to get head or tail out of it. You need a pair of great ears like @prem and another helping hand to move the speakers. Sometimes these kind of things are best left to the experts or the experienced . I realised how much of a n00b I am that day.

 

[Analogous]

tend to lose track of which position sounded relatively better or worse. Any tips on this?

When I discover a position that sounds good I use a Marker pen (on tiles)before moving them anywhere else.; even small dots will do. Any alcohol based solvents will rub these off. I have seen sticky tape used by others.

 

[reignofchaos]

When I discover a position that sounds good I use a Marker pen before moving them anywhere else. I have seen sticky tape used by others.

Double sided tape in my case

 

[Fiftyfifty]

An even more difficult adjustment is the speaker height and ear height. After all, the floor and ceiling are walls too! It's not just the relative heights - the absolute heights also matter. In my room, there is a significant difference in sq when standing vs. sitting. And I've observed this in other people's rooms as well.