Room-Speaker setup and the importance of 5mm !

[Analogous]

I didn't go through the video because that is Hans who used to praise Tidal before the MQA scam. In general I get the impression he bats for equipment that costs $$. But the maximum improvement in my setup was when I tried toe-in. I got Tremendous improvement when I toed in my electrostats towards me. Though the manual says the electrostats are curved and don't require toe in. Similarly (maybe 2 years back) when I was going through the site of the company that makes those Mishra speakers, it said don't toe-in the speakers. So sometimes manufacturer may say something but the actual result could be something else.

I don’t agree with everything Hans or any other reviewer says. But I felt his explanation in this video was sensible.
I also feel that even speaker manufacturers should not be giving generic advice on placement of their products without mentioning room sizes and acoustical variables that impact the audio presentation.
I am totally with your approach on experimentation to discover what different positions and placement brings with each speaker pair.

 

[keith_correa]

I also feel that even speaker manufacturers should not be giving generic advice on placement of their products without mentioning room sizes and acoustical variables that impact the audio presentation.

This is absolutely correct!

 

[arj]

I don’t agree with everything Hans or any other reviewer says. But I felt his explanation in this video was sensible.
I also feel that even speaker manufacturers should not be giving generic advice on placement of their products without mentioning room sizes and acoustical variables that impact the audio presentation.
I am totally with your approach on experimentation to discover what different positions and placement brings with each speaker pair.

100%
Sadly only some have done it that too in parts, but ideally should give
eg
1. Room size range in Volume
2. Amplifier power ranges and also guidance on Tube/SS/SET/Class A etc etc as a guidance.
3. Sound signature which can be expected
4. Height of woofer from ground, and distance range from walls for ideal placement
5. Ideal distance between speakers and toe in Guidance - Merlin use to give a simple protractor to place on the speaker and aim the ear positions

I am not even going into the measurements/specs to be published

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

100%
Sadly only some have done it that too in parts, but ideally should give
eg
1. Room size range in Volume
2. Amplifier power ranges and also guidance on Tube/SS/SET/Class A etc etc as a guidance.
3. Sound signature which can be expected
4. Height of woofer from ground, and distance range from walls for ideal placement
5. Ideal distance between speakers and toe in Guidance - Merlin use to give a simple protractor to place on the speaker and aim the ear positions

I am not even going into the measurements/specs to be published

Ideally they should. But who will? Stipulating it all would bring the interested buyers down to 20%, if not even less! And will put the reviewers and Audio magazines out of job.

 

[arj]

exa

Ideally they should. But who will? Stipulating it all would bring the interested buyers down to 20%, if not even less! And will put the reviewers and Audio magazines out of job.

Thats why I mentioned "Ideally" because Actually that will give more reasons for people to reject speakers in an as it is unregulated and low volume market catering to miniscule target market which thrives on subjectivity and (mis)information

 

[Analogous]

exa


Thats why I mentioned "Ideally" because Actually that will give more reasons for people to reject speakers in an as it is unregulated and low volume market catering to miniscule target market which thrives on subjectivity and (mis)information

But why treat this tiny but particular and discerning market like idiots? Some possible reasons:

Maybe they take a lazy approach (let them figure it out…I couldn’t be bothered)

Or Audiophiles are an eccentric, neurotic, impossible to satisfy group that can’t agree on anything

Or these speakers look cool and will sell even if they sound crap as long as I get some hype going online

Or why bother since mostly these speakers are going to be put in E shaped, L shaped, C shaped living spaces, with stairwells and such, with significant others prioritising room aesthetic over acoustics

Or, speaker manufacturers read this: https://darko.audio/2024/02/room-acoustics-isnt-rocket-science-but-its-still-complicated/
or this: https://darko.audio/2024/01/the-enemy-of-great-hi-fi-sound-lives-in-plain-sight/

 

[jenson]

I personally feel, toe in compromises with soundstage, true that sound becomes more direct and therefore clarity and loudness improves, but this immediat-ness strips away the much needed reflections... I guess some reflections adds to the charm of a speaker..especially when it comes to soundstage and imaging.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

I personally feel, toe in compromises with soundstage, true that sound becomes more direct and therefore clarity and loudness improves, but this immediat-ness strips away the much needed reflections... I guess some reflections adds to the charm of a speaker..especially when it comes to soundstage and imaging.

Besides the effect on soundstaging (which I don’t value so much), with my BS speakers, whenever I tried toeing in, I found the vocals get thicker and instruments less delicate. Prefer to keep them firing straight ahead.

 

[heliumflight]

are you placing the speaker along the long or short wall ? if along the short wall and firing down te long side, start with 5 feet ( 1/3) of the driver from the real and 4 feet of the insides edge of the speaker to the side wall...and try to adjust..

You mean 5.3 feet away from the back wall. Didn't understand the feet 4 part. Can you clarify again?

 

[jenson]

Besides the effect on soundstaging (which I don’t value so much), with my BS speakers, whenever I tried toeing in, I found the vocals get thicker and instruments less delicate. Prefer to keep them firing straight ahead.

Get baptised by a Rethm and you'll appreciate soundstage like never before

Edit: I also don't think imaging/soundstage is a choice one makes, it's inherent to stereo. Just that some line of speakers do it well over others... My finding is, it's easiest to recreate in a FR setup

 

[heliumflight]

I have listened to Rethm's extensively and agree that they do soundstage very well. For imaging electrostatic speakers are the leaders.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

Get baptised by a Rethm and you'll appreciate soundstage like never before

Edit: I also don't think imaging/soundstage is a choice one makes, it's inherent to stereo. Just that some line of speakers do it well over others... My finding is, it's easiest to recreate in a FR setup

It wasn’t the main point of my reply, hence in the brackets. Also, the kind of music I listen to majority of times these days - old film songs, Indian classical.. doesn’t depend much on soundstage to delight the listener. In fact, I tend to enjoy the relatively older film albums that are in mono. Guess I could do with a nice all-in-one speaker at some point in future.

As for baptism by Rethm or other top notch speakers, ignorance is indeed my bliss!

 

[reignofchaos]

I personally feel, toe in compromises with soundstage, true that sound becomes more direct and therefore clarity and loudness improves, but this immediat-ness strips away the much needed reflections... I guess some reflections adds to the charm of a speaker..especially when it comes to soundstage and imaging.

I like no or minimal toe in just enough to form a center image. Any more and the soundstage gets compressed and finally destroyed.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Hi everyone

My 2p on speaker placement. Just sharing what has worked for me:

1. The first and most important step is being clear about what sound characteristics one prefers. Attend as many live shows and listen to other FM setups. Travel - audition dealer demos of high-end gear. You'll be surprised how terrible some high end systems sound to you. Don't go by reviews in audio magazines but listen to reviews from friends whose ears you trust. Go by what gets the foot tapping, what elevates the mood, what characteristics of the sound stand out to you. Personally, I pay attention to hearing the sound of the strike on the skin on percussion instruments, bass that is driving without overshadowing other instruments, a forward midrange, attacking transients and the ring on high notes.
2. Start with any of the methods that suit your room layout and PAF (let's be gender neutral here, P is for Partner), be it 1/3, 1/5, quarterwave, Cardas or some other. They are all fair starting points. From the start position, move the speakers forward 10 cms, listen, then back 10cms and listen again. Which movement is bringing forth more of the characteristics listed in 1 above? As mentioned by Prem, pay particular attention to bass override. This can particularly affect how clearly we hear mid range and vocals. At this stage, keep the room conditions constant (don't change furniture position, curtains, listening position, volume). Next, move further in the direction (forward or back) in which the sound characteristics improved at 10 cms. At one point, generally not exceeding 25 cms from the starting point, the sound will start deteriorating. At that stage one needs to reverse direction, now 5 cms at a time, listening for those vital characteristics. A few iterations back and forth will be necessary to arrive at the ideal location. When you find the best spot in this manner, move back and forth 2cms, and then 1cm, until you hear the music 'click in' as FM Arj described. A bit of lateral movement and toe-in may also be necessary to achieve better imaging and a cohesive sound, but this is easier than the placement wrt the front wall. Any movement away from this spot will take the live energy away from the sound.
3. Listen to your favorite music in this position for at least a week. Try multiple genres, multiple sources. After a week, given the time and inclination, one can move to the next step: Mark the current position and adopt a different method, e.g. if you first chose Cardas, move to the 1/3 method. Repeat the above steps with the new method and find the second ideal spot. Listen for a week. Then a third method to find a third ideal spot. We now have 3 or 4 ideal spots to select from, each determined by a different principle. Select the best and keep a note of the other positions selected. One can now experiment with room tweaks and room treatment if desired
4. Be open to suggestions from others but don't be a football of their opinions. Enjoy the music. Forget about speaker placement

Cheers!

 

[Sushant Sharma]

Hi everyone

My 2p on speaker placement. Just sharing what has worked for me:

1. The first and most important step is being clear about what sound characteristics one prefers. Attend as many live shows and listen to other FM setups. Travel - audition dealer demos of high-end gear. You'll be surprised how terrible some high end systems sound to you. Don't go by reviews in audio magazines but listen to reviews from friends whose ears you trust. Go by what gets the foot tapping, what elevates the mood, what characteristics of the sound stand out to you. Personally, I pay attention to hearing the sound of the strike on the skin on percussion instruments, bass that is driving without overshadowing other instruments, a forward midrange, attacking transients and the ring on high notes.
2. Start with any of the methods that suit your room layout and PAF (let's be gender neutral here, P is for Partner), be it 1/3, 1/5, quarterwave, Cardas or some other. They are all fair starting points. From the start position, move the speakers forward 10 cms, listen, then back 10cms and listen again. Which movement is bringing forth more of the characteristics listed in 1 above? As mentioned by Prem, pay particular attention to bass override. This can particularly affect how clearly we hear mid range and vocals. At this stage, keep the room conditions constant (don't change furniture position, curtains, listening position, volume). Next, move further in the direction (forward or back) in which the sound characteristics improved at 10 cms. At one point, generally not exceeding 25 cms from the starting point, the sound will start deteriorating. At that stage one needs to reverse direction, now 5 cms at a time, listening for those vital characteristics. A few iterations back and forth will be necessary to arrive at the ideal location. When you find the best spot in this manner, move back and forth 2cms, and then 1cm, until you hear the music 'click in' as FM Arj described. A bit of lateral movement and toe-in may also be necessary to achieve better imaging and a cohesive sound, but this is easier than the placement wrt the front wall. Any movement away from this spot will take the live energy away from the sound.
3. Listen to your favorite music in this position for at least a week. Try multiple genres, multiple sources. After a week, given the time and inclination, one can move to the next step: Mark the current position and adopt a different method, e.g. if you first chose Cardas, move to the 1/3 method. Repeat the above steps with the new method and find the second ideal spot. Listen for a week. Then a third method to find a third ideal spot. We now have 3 or 4 ideal spots to select from, each determined by a different principle. Select the best and keep a note of the other positions selected. One can now experiment with room tweaks and room treatment if desired
4. Be open to suggestions from others but don't be a football of their opinions. Enjoy the music. Forget about speaker placement

Cheers!

Thanks Kishore. Very descriptive and helpful. I will give it a go soon.

 

[dafreaking]

Or Audiophiles are an eccentric, neurotic, impossible to satisfy group that can’t agree on anything

You hit the nail on the head.

 

[Amarendra]

I experimented with my KEF speakers last week end. I moved them forward into the room away from the front wall (wall behind the spkrs) and put them on stands rather than the usual TV cabinet. The sound stage was bigger indeed and the vocals recessed (coming from a space behind the speakers as if coming from the TV on the wall between the speakers). But the sound became a tad lifeless- I guess the staging improved but something was lost. This could be the support which the speakers were getting from the front wall. No amount of toeing-in could help. Anyways the speakers are back to the TV shelf and happy with it that way.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

I experimented with my KEF speakers last week end. I moved them forward into the room away from the front wall (wall behind the spkrs) and put them on stands rather than the usual TV cabinet. The sound stage was bigger indeed and the vocals recessed (coming from a space behind the speakers as if coming from the TV on the wall between the speakers). But the sound became a tad lifeless- I guess the staging improved but something was lost. This could be the support which the speakers were getting from the front wall. No amount of toeing-in could help. Anyways the speakers are back to the TV shelf and happy with it that way.

Is it possible for you to keep the speakers on the stands, but at the same distance from the front wall as when they are on the cabinet? If so, try that and see.

My speakers are at a distance of 30 cm from the wall and on the stands. In this position, the speaker’s front edge is only slightly ahead of the TV cabinet’s front edge. The TV cabinet is pushed behind all the way to the wall with only a little gap (2.5 cm) for cable arrangement. The TV (it is stand mounted) as well is pushed behind, as close to the wall as possible. Pushing the TV cabinet and the TV to the back has a positive impact on the sound (sharper imaging).for me. And for the speakers, at the 30 cm distance from the wall, they produce the most enjoyable sound.

Like you, if I bring the speakers ahead from this optimum distance (30 cm) even by a few centimeters, the music starts losing emotion. If I bring them up too much (I’ve tried till 3 ft in the past) the music sounds clearer, but sterile. I have come to the conclusion that my speakers need the reinforcement provided by the wall to go deep enough to bring life to the music (and not just the drums/bass etc, but even the vocals to move me). I don’t mind losing on the better depth of soundstage and separation gained from bringing the speakers further ahead.

But as I realised from earlier discussion in this thread, this wall reinforcement is not a feature of all speakers. It is especially needed in budget range speakers, while better speakers in higher range produce the needed bass through their drivers and cabinets alone and don’t depend on the front wall for reinforcement. I can see why that wouid produce better sound as they allow greater latitude in speaker placement and can be placed as per all those ideal ratios while still sounding lifelike.

 

[Analogous]

!!! What do you think? Oil from a snake?

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

!!! What do you think? Oil from a snake?

Even if it doesn’t work, it’d make an intriguing room decoration worth a lac of Rupees!