Should Amplifiers Be Transparent?

[venkatcr]

You'll even find a (grouchy but) super amazing and knowledgeable mod called venkatcr! (Don't ban me Venkat, I meant this from the heart!)

Grrrrrrrrr. Grrrrrrrr. Grrrrrrrr.

Now that all acrimonies have been voiced and set aside. Let us move forward.

In a way, I agree with what Kanwar says. Some of you may not remember, but there was an discussion sometime ago that an amp can become 'better' with age - something similar to the break-in of a speaker. I had written quite a detailed and technical article as to why, if a amp does break-in, there cannot be positive movement in the sound, but only a negative movement. Some of the amp manufacturers go to a great extent to ensure there is no change in the sound signature of the amp after use. In such cases, the amp are broken in for a reasonably long time, and adjusted again to ensure that the sound signature is the same. And, this adjustment is not done by ears, but by reliable measurements.

I will see if I can get that thread and post it here.

At the same time we have to understand that the minute a voice/instrument starts it's voyage through electronics, it very essence is irreversibly changed. If you listen to a singer (I have) without a mike, and listen to the same song through an audio system, it will be different.

Some of the best amp designers main objective is to reduce this difference. And that, I think, is where Kanwar is coming from.

Cheers

 

[ajay124]

I'll drink to that. Cheers!

Not so sure about amps but I'm reasonably certain that a blended whiskey is 'coloured' and a single malt is 'transparent'.Personally I prefer transparent

 

[panditji]

I love the way we Indians like pulling each other down.... The British actually had it easy.....

 

[kanwar]

Grrrrrrrrr. Grrrrrrrr. Grrrrrrrr.

Now that all acrimonies have been voiced and set aside. Let us move forward.

In a way, I agree with what Kanwar says. Some of you may not remember, but there was an discussion sometime ago that an amp can become 'better' with age - something similar to the break-in of a speaker. I had written quite a detailed and technical article as to why, if a amp does break-in, there cannot be positive movement in the sound, but only a negative movement. Some of the amp manufacturers go to a great extent to ensure there is no change in the sound signature of the amp after use. In such cases, the amp are broken in for a reasonably long time, and adjusted again to ensure that the sound signature is the same. And, this adjustment is not done by ears, but by reliable measurements.

I will see if I can get that thread and post it here.

At the same time we have to understand that the minute a voice/instrument starts it's voyage through electronics, it very essence is irreversibly changed. If you listen to a singer (I have) without a mike, and listen to the same song through an audio system, it will be different.

Some of the best amp designers main objective is to reduce this difference. And that, I think, is where Kanwar is coming from.

Cheers

Hello Venkat,

I think you did understood me quite well then rest of others here.

We usually denote that break in as "burn in" period of amplifier which ranges from few hours to half day in some specific applications. This is actually necessary for 2 main reasons.
First is to weed out any weak component in amplification chain which might in later stage provoke a failure.
Secondly the operating point of amplifier which in linear amplifiers is known as bias current stabilization which needs time and it stabilizes only after heat soak test done on heatsinks itself by output devices.
After the proper burn in period the amp is re-evaluated with new measurements and a comparison is made to see if the deviation is little or more from the set standard.


regards,
Kanwar

 

[ajay124]

Individual reactions to posts are also subjective.I read through the entire thread and did not find anything offensive in what Kanwar has written.In fact I found his posts to be knowledgable,focused,sensible and restrained.
@hemantwaghe
Perhaps we can learn something from his technical knowledge.Whether he is well versed in music is a different kettle of fish.I doubt if many amp professionals are experts in music.I love the Bryston amps but recently while going through a Bryston forum on which James Tanner also posts,I came across a music thread,and personally I was not very impressed with the music which was being praised on that thread.

 

[kanwar]

But why he is not telling his favorite geonure and what"EXACT" live expereince jhe has?
Esp in may favorite geonure - classical rock....like "when I was at Abby Road ,Allen asked me will this Dark Side will be hit, I doubt???" ( Only to discover later that Kanwar is born after 73!!" .))

So Kanwarji I am 0 in design and understanding ,but can we know your specific experience with live recordings please? Please? Please?

Hi Hemantwaghe Uncleji,

Sorry for late reply, no offense,

My genre is country rock and pop. Regarding the LIVE sound experience, i have listened many times to singers rehearsing with and without microphones, singers trying the high pitch vocals to test their limits and taming their vocal chords. This experience has taught me many things such as to design the mic-preamplifiers with respect to maximum allowable headroom without overloading the input stage and still maintaining the 130dB + dynamic range. Because many mic preamps fail to give you dynamic range in excess of 120dB.........

People in the similar art shall find my post a bit technical but this is how i work in real.

All my designs are referenced based on LIVE SOUND Experimentation only, the compression junk of MP3 format is way too lossy when you want to exploit the decibels to their limits in the concert.

I hope this helps Sirjee



Cheers,
Kanwar

 

[Dr.Bass]

I hope I am not late to the party.
Let me straight get to the audio aspect of this discussion.
Throughout this thread, time and again I have seen fellow members rejecting the "neutrality" aspect saying that we all hear differently, our ears are anyway flawed, recordings are colored etc..
Talking about our ears, I have always wondered, even though we hear differently, appreciate different aspects of music, why is it that we all love the sound of real instruments and appreciate live music the most ? Why is this behavior common among all of us ? Arent we still using the same set of sensory organs while listening real instruments ? That tells me that we ultimately appreciate things very similar.

My point is, neutrality in true sense is the closest to real music that one can get. The fact that many of us have admitted to like certain color in our amps is simply because we are trying to compensate for some other color in the system that we do not like. In the end, we are trying to attain neutrality by mix and matching colors, which is impossible to achieve IMO.

IMO Kanwar's statement is incomplete, it is the system (not just amp) which should be transparent. Having a truly transparent/neutral amp with a colored source can be a disaster. So it should be a holistic approach.

Coming over to recording quality, a highly neutral system will bring out all the melody that is in the recording. No electronics, whatever color you choose to add, can add further melody to the music, it is simply out of the capacity of electronics to add "musical" content which is not there in the recording. Music can only be added by instruments and human voices, not by electronics.

Now, measurements are necessary to make a good product. But if we have all the devices necessary to build an absolutely transparent/neutral amp, what is stopping designers to make one ? I suppose you dont need an audio designer to make an amp like that in the first place, it can be made by any technician who know how to use measuring devices/tools !!! Is it that simple ? Absolutely not IMO. Our ears can sense/measure things which is way more complex and unfortunately we still do not know completely what to measure in musical passage, so the question of making a device to measure it is unrealistic.

 

[kanwar]

Names names names - who are these? I think Mic and Equipment does not make music ..people do ( As they say Guns don't kill people ,people do. orr....Nasha sharab main hota to naachto bottle.)
Names - like which singers you heard LIVE in recording studios ( I dont think any biggies Record in India ,Mumbai or Lucknow Right? so which studioes abrod you head them?) and how they sound on your "Transparent " amp.

Names.......doesn't matters, neither you have anything to do with that.
Is that necessary that singers must be from western countries and not from native land and language.????

Mic and mixing Equipments are the tools which are very much part of the recording chain if you fail to see it. You cannot get a recording done nicely if the equipment you are using is flawed. Even a guitar has a preamp of its own and if that has a serious headroom limitation than the recording happening in studio will suffer very much. Neutral amps will always sound transparent.






Kanwar

 

[kanwar]

IMO Kanwar's statement is incomplete, it is the system (not just amp) which should be transparent. Having a truly transparent/neutral amp with a colored source can be a disaster. So it should be a holistic approach.

Hi Dr.Bass
Yes you got it in better perspective, the whole recording chain of equipment should be neutral in that sense in order to reproduce the music faithfully.



cheers,
Kanwar

 

[Bobby]

IMO Kanwar's statement is incomplete, it is the system (not just amp) which should be transparent. Having a truly transparent/neutral amp with a colored source can be a disaster. So it should be a holistic approach.

Coming over to recording quality, a highly neutral system will bring out all the melody that is in the recording. No electronics, whatever color you choose to add, can add further melody to the music, it is simply out of the capacity of electronics to add "musical" content which is not there in the recording. Music can only be added by instruments and human voices, not by electronics.

Excellent entailment by Dr bass.

 

[kanwar]

I hope I am not late to the party.
Music can only be added by instruments and human voices, not by electronics.

I think you forgot the thing called "music synthesizers" which are indeed made up of electronics only and are extensively used where a human voice and music instrument cannot give the type of music they generate.

For example the Echo and Reverb, Sub harmonic extended LF content which can be added in recordings which are not having them at initial period.

Most of the Trance music is generated by Electronic synthesizers only.


Kanwar

 

[Bobby]

I think you forgot the thing called "music synthesizers" which are indeed made up of electronics only and are extensively used where a human voice and music instrument cannot give the type of music they generate.

For example the Echo and Reverb, Sub harmonic extended LF content which can be added in recordings which are not having them at initial period.

Most of the Trance music is generated by Electronic synthesizers only.


Kanwar

Very true.
Echo, Reverb, Music synthesizer, when already used while recording so where is the need of color or system signature sound.
IMO Human voice or instruments are more enjoyable when they are natural.

We may love to have coke,sweet sour lime soda often but at the end of the day only the water can fulfill our thirst which is transparent and neutral.

 

[keith_correa]

My genre is country rock and pop.

My kinda guy except for the "Pop" [Ugh!] part.

 

[Dr.Bass]

I think you forgot the thing called "music synthesizers" which are indeed made up of electronics only and are extensively used where a human voice and music instrument cannot give the type of music they generate.

For example the Echo and Reverb, Sub harmonic extended LF content which can be added in recordings which are not having them at initial period.

Most of the Trance music is generated by Electronic synthesizers only.


Kanwar

No, I havent forgotten them. Most of the new age music we listen to have more of synthesizers than real instruments but those synthesizers are played by humans not by machines. Only human brain can identify "melody", be it from any instrument, and add it to a performance. An electronic gadget cannot do it. Heck, people even make good music out of household utensils, that is how capable/innovative/creative humans are. So the domain of "creating", "adding", "editing" music only belongs to humans not electronics.

 

[square_wave]

Re: Puriss A1000A. Class A amp for serious listening

Hi Kanwar,

This is all theoretically perfect and in fact, most DBTs show that people can't tell amplifiers apart.
However, the entire hi fi amplifier industry could potentially shut down if people didn't claim that their amplifier wasn't doing something special or different. Why would anyone buy a Wavac at $350,000 (with measurements worse than a transistor radio) when they could pick up a 1000 wpc B & O Icepower module at $300 which should theoretically work for all applications?

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

Albert Einstein

There lies the catch !

 

[square_wave]

Re: Puriss A1000A. Class A amp for serious listening

hmm
and you decide what recipe i like or for that matter what everyone should like?
fantastic.

there is no definition of essence of music information
hmmm. also what would you say about musicians who have the same amp as i.
they listen to their creations on this amp
You are saying they produce transparent music and then have it colored by the amp
brilliant!

music is music my dear friend thats why its subjective
as i said no on can decide or state which amplifier captures the true essence of music
merely because that true essence is interpreted differently by different individuals

there is rarely something definitive in audio
what floats my boat may drown yours

Completely see your point

But when you use a colored amplifier, there is a whole world of creative information you are missing which lies in the accurate reproduction domain. Only when your gear and setup is relatively neutral you will hear the true colors in the music as intended by the musician and creator of the musical instrument. Otherwise all your music will be seen through a colored glass.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Re: Puriss A1000A. Class A amp for serious listening

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

Albert Einstein

There lies the catch !

he he, how correct !!

 

[square_wave]

My two cents regarding DBT and other testing systems promoted by the spec bandwagon

While testing systems are a very valid method in any engineering endeavour, the problem is with the understanding of the different parameters and their interpretation by various camps in audio. Some aspects of audio are still a black art.

In a dbt, one cannot differentiate between and dvd player and a dcs rack. Nor can one differentiate between an AVR and a Hi-end amplifier. Now try incorporating a kenwood AVR and an LG dvd player into a super hi end/musical audio setup and listen !

Try listening to music on a budget rotel amplifier connected to an audience 50 dynaudio speaker (both have pretty good specs according to established mainstream standards) and compare this to an SET conncted to a diy fostex kit. One will sound extremely mechanical while the other will enthral you. If you measure the SET/Fostex system, it will be a nightmare !

Most of time when folks say that most people do not like a neutral system, they are actually referring to mechanical sounding gear which are often sold by the spec bandwagon in the guise of neutral gear . They are actually far from neutral. A neutral system is not mechanical. It has all the warmth / lack of warmth , harmonics of real music. Real hi fidelity gear are the ones where all other aspects of music creation are also taken care of apart from the basic engineering specification. Such gear goes beyond the obvious design parameters.

Use the most advanced measuring tool in the world to evaluate your gear. Your ear ! If you cannot enjoy music on your system, there is something terribly wrong !

 

[malvai]

Use the most advanced measuring tool in the world to evaluate your gear. Your ear ! If you cannot enjoy music on your system, its place is in the dust bin.

Very true.

Also, understand this, that as time progresses, so do the testing methodology. In the 60s and 70s there were probably testing on 20 KNOWN parameters.

Today the parameters have grown to two to three fold.

But there are many parameters that we don't even know of. And then there are parameters that we don't even know that we don't know...

Those are the ones that are labelled as "black arts".

The testers are only now validating the importance of subsonics. The sound sounds that emanate outside of our 'hearing' bandwidth.

But the really great gear allows for them, even though we can't hear the sounds. And how do those sounds affect the experience?

Have you heard the same piece of music on two systems and felt that it sounds better on one of the system? Have you felt the tiny hair on your prickling? Its the subsonics at work!

 

[Dr.Bass]

Use the most advanced measuring tool in the world to evaluate your gear. Your ear ! If you cannot enjoy music on your system, there is something terribly wrong !

That also means that the gear is flawed in a domain that we do not know how to measure, but the sophisticated mechanism we have in our body measured it and found a flaw in it as well

Measuring sound is in the domain of science but measuring music ???