so.. whats in a Naim ?

[mpw]

now that the setup is settled in fairly.. i am contemplating some simple things to work with.. like controlling tri corner reflections on the ceiling and floor, a nice carpet, maybe a small wall carpet and maybe even something on the ceiling.

But first i would validate with simple inexpensive stuff like pillows and then move onto something more lasting.. and that could be better pillows too :lol:

Would like to experiment with an open frame speaker stand ( a la..Harbeth )
or something like the Epos ST12i stands

( please let me know if someone in Mumbai can lend me for a few days to play with and i could in turn lend you my speaker stands )

Good thing is that after a listening session with a fantastic setup ( including in Surat ) and exchanging notes.. one realizes thats its just not plug and play..

One has to maximize the setup with minimal ( read clever moves ) and thats where reflections / damping / corners / room treatment comes into play..

They say God is in the details but i think.. for audio blokes.. God is in the room.

Question is how do you find it ?

any thoughts without going OT ??

PS : The Naim and Epos are a very good combo.. just that the room comes into play in every setup and thats what this post is all about.

The thread starting question is a bit silly i realize now.. it should not be whats in a Naim ?.. rather it should be .. whats in the chain ??

regards,
mpw

 

[Santy]

Mahesh
There's no simple way to conquer room deficiencies. You have to get REAL sound absorbing stuff; don't waste your time in pillows, curtains and somethings. Rockwool/ Fibrewool panels of 3 to 4" think at the first reflection points and corner bass traps will create hell lot of a difference. You need to get your hands dirty- if you don't want to spend on off the shelf panels. But once your room is treated, even to a considerable extent, you will realize why the heck you ignored it so far.

 

[mpw]

hey santy,

lots of stuff on sale.. good luck. which actives are you considering.. you may PM if you wish.

I agree in part with what you said. I have to get real on the acoustic front.

But mine is a living room setup so there will always be compromises and i wish i got lucky to have a room dedicated to stereo and i would do the treatment first and maybe then think of the equipment. That would be the ideal way to go.

But my world ( as far as audio ) is far from ideal at the moment.

I intend to experiment with simpler things and validate first. The kind of "branded " room treatment involved in my room costs many $$$$ and thats something i dont have now.

Maybe .. next time i visit showrooms.. i will focus more on the room acoustics than the equipment itself.

Its all a learning and i wish to enjoy the journey as much as the destination - if there ever is one.

Know any Indian company into room acoustics ??.. apart from bajaao.com please let me know

Kind regards
mpw

 

[arj]

i would suggest be very very careful with acoustic treatment as unless this is done by someone who really knows what is being done as the results are very broadbased. ie while it improves some freq range, it messes with others. you are safer taking care of high frequencies via diffusers (but again if you dont get it right you lose the air/ energy)
Bass absorbers, IMHO , are of bigger impact ie mostly they reduce the midbass as well which can damp vocals as well.

My suggestion is to try out primarily with Placement of speakers. toe in and listening positions first (in case you have not already explored this). first reflection point damping with bookcases/shelves on the walls and carpet on the ground are safe.

Once you get the above right then you could try out vibration isolation .

Again , not really an expert but the above is what i have figured out from my and experiences fo people i do know.

best is to get a professional to do it.(not sure of who does it in india though)

 

[sidvee]

One has to maximize the setup with minimal ( read clever moves ) and thats where reflections / damping / corners / room treatment comes into play..

They say God is in the details but i think.. for audio blokes.. God is in the room.

Question is how do you find it ?

mpw

@mpw, before room treatment my suggestion is one has to quantify what is erroneous in the room, not subjectively but objectively.
For this you will need to measure your room at your listening location - and the simplest low cost method is with test tones at various frequencies (available on the net) and a decent Sound level meter (radio shack has a decent model, but not very accurate especially in lower frequencies - however corrections to the readings are available on the net).
Once you have the readings plotted on a graph, you can tell what is going on with peaks, dips, suckouts and nulls which represent actual sound waves bouncing around in your room rather than subjective interpretations.
Based on this you can make some inferences and plan your room treatment methodology - bass traps, diffusers, first reflection points, floor treatment etc.
That being said, I have yet to find a room anywhere that does not benefit by putting bass traps in the corners - this is quite simply the best, no brainer improvement that can be done to any room. Secondly, my advice, do not put thin treatments on the wall floor etc, like wall hangings, thin carpets etc. They will do more harm than good as they will absorb or reflect unevenly causing some frequencies to dip and others to peak. The key to adding absorption is broad band panels that have a large bandwidth of absorption. And with diffusers it is even more complex - one simple rule with diffusers - if the panel is less than 4 inches deep, it will not work well. So if you do diffusion you have to be prepared to have objects upto a foot deep on the walls, on the ceiling etc.
AFAIK there are no real small venue professional acousticians in India - yes there are those who treat cinema halls - these are large venue, and then there are those who treat studio spaces - which IMO is also different from treating a domestic listening environment. However I did find that some dealers (like Audio People), do have THX certified staff, and they will have a decent understanding of treating home theaters and small listening environments, and I am sure if you buy treatments from them they will offer you free advice. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Santy]

while it improves some freq range, it messes with others
.........................

Bass absorbers, IMHO , are of bigger impact ie mostly they reduce the midbass as well which can damp vocals as well.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Acoustic panels are not put right in front of speakers blocking the listening envelope. They are used so that we hear the sound coming from speakers without getting molested by the room, ie to hear the speakers as if they are in free space. The acoustics can only help avoid the vocals or midbass frequencies being messed up by room interactions but they cannot change those frequencies that the speakers are playing, can they? Ofcourse, too much of acoustics can create a dead atmosphere which is least desired, takes away a realistic environment of a music performance.

That being said, I have yet to find a room anywhere that does not benefit by putting bass traps in the corners - this is quite simply the best, no brainer improvement that can be done to any room.

Well said.

 

[arj]

Please correct me if I am wrong. Acoustic panels are not put right in front of speakers blocking the listening envelope. They are used so that we hear the sound coming from speakers without getting molested by the room, ie to hear the speakers as if they are in free space. The acoustics can only help avoid the vocals or midbass frequencies being messed up by room interactions but they cannot change those frequencies that the speakers are playing, can they? Ofcourse, too much of acoustics can create a dead atmosphere which is least desired, takes away a realistic environment of a music performance.

Santy, I believe speakers are designed/voiced keeping a regular room in mind which includes reflections hence it is not really the direct sound we hear..unlike Studio Monitors. The reverberations in a room are important to give life to music for most speakers .

If you really want to avoid the room then near field listening is the way to go and there are speakers which are designed for just that. hence "Molestation" is not really the right word

As I mentioned, first order reflections can be be diffused and hence side wall treatment and floors (if reflective) can be more easily managed. these are not too risky

Unfortunately, most folks tend to overdo this and that can create more problems as, unless you are correcting in the digital domain, in the accoustic domain it is Not an exact science and needs to be done by someone who knows how acoustics work to avoid "Collateral Damage" as when you treat a frequency range you also do impact the Harmonics of other ranges and that changes the tonality/timbre

Placement of speakers (back/side wall/toe in) and listeing position create much larger impacts in sound and that needs to be the first to be explored , followed by identification of the problem..and only then identify the real need fo the treatment and the kind of treatment.

Most folks who rush into it end up with dead sound and in most cases No treatment is better than wrong treatment.

 

[hydra]

I'm not an expert, but I think the broad strokes in fixing a room would go like this:

1) Proper placement and toeing-in of speakers and determination of sweet spot.

2) Fixing first order reflections to the sides (diffusion/absorption panels) and on the floor (carpet)

3) Fixing reflections behind the speakers (diffusion/absorption panels)

4) Fixing reflections behind the listener (diffusion/absorption panels)

5) Trapping bass resonances (bass traps)

6) Fixing reflections on the ceiling (diffusion/absorption panels)

I think 1 to 4 can easily be done, and aesthetically enough too, on a DIY basis. Hang acoustic foam panels and cover them up with jute or good quality cloth with some custom prints, just like paintings. This would take care of diffusion, and reasonably cheaply too. You can also make rockwool panels instead and use them similarly, for absorption. I personally prefer diffusion. Also I'm having trouble starting work with rockwool considering the health implications of rockwool.

5 would require some involved DIY, which quite a few FMs have done. But how aesthetically they can be implemented in a living room (without substantial extra cost on making them look pretty), remains to be seen.

6 might get you thrown out of the house if you're doing this in a living room. Come to think of it, 5 could have the same results.

 

[Santy]

Santy, I believe speakers are designed/voiced keeping a regular room in mind which includes reflections hence it is not really the direct sound we hear..unlike Studio Monitors. The reverberations in a room are important to give life to music for most speakers .

If you really want to avoid the room then near field listening is the way to go and there are speakers which are designed for just that. hence "Molestation" is not really the right word

I agree that Hifi speakers are more tolerant to room interactions and that a bit of reflections does help in adding realism. But I am not very sure how near field listening can help you stay clear of room reflections. If you sit far enough, you are hearing the speaker and reflections at the same time. If you sit closer, you hear speakers first and walls later. So be it near field or far field, there is no true immunity from reflections and reverberations without room treatment. Infact studio monitors benefit more from room treatment.

I personally feel that there is absolutely no harm in adding a couple of panels at early reflection points (mirror technique is all the science you need) and a couple of bass traps in the corners. The benefits are immense compared to the minor aberrations that might be caused by unscientific calculations. Infact, overdoing acoustics is not an easy job either if one is going by DIY route. Needs plenty of time and determination! I am still trying to get some time for building a couple of bass traps but no avail!

I fully support suggestions on other simpler ways of getting best out of your gear, like speaker positioning, toe-in, making the room symmetrical, removing reflective objects like photo frames, etc.

 

[arj]

I agree that Hifi speakers are more tolerant to room interactions and that a bit of reflections does help in adding realism. But I am not very sure how near field listening can help you stay clear of room reflections. If you sit far enough, you are hearing the speaker and reflections at the same time. If you sit closer, you hear speakers first and walls later. So be it near field or far field, there is no true immunity from reflections and reverberations without room treatment. In fact studio monitors benefit more from room treatment.
.

Our ears have a natural filter to reject sound with a delay above a tolerance. Thats why you do not hear 3rd reflections in rooms. this is a natural "Filter"to help us localize sounds.

thats another reason we are told not to sit too close to an untreated back wall as the ear would not be able to differentiate between the direct sound and any reflected sound.

So if you listen very close to the speakers your ears will reject the same sound appearing from the walls with a delay..i think it is 1/2 mSec but dont remember this. (ai am assuming a decently sized room..for very small rooms its anyway better to go for headphones)

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

we are told not to sit too close to an untreated back wall as the ear would not be able to differentiate between the direct sound and any reflected sound.

If you are closer to the back wall, wouldn't that mean that the reflections from behind you are reaching you at, effectively, the same time as the sound from in front of you?

 

[mpw]

thats what would cause the interference thad.

 

[mpw]

my current speaker stands are conventional ones with a large center column..

would an open frame stand like the ones recommended by harbeth etc.. make a difference ?

mpw

 

[mpw]

thank you for contributing to this thread.

Me think there are some tricks that will work given any speaker or amp setup and somethings peculiar to the listening room.

some things that may work are bass traps are tri corner ceilings and first reflection points

some ideas call for re works on the ceilings etc. which is impossible for me.

the carpet will find its way into the system soon..

.. besides we found noticable results with the CDP sitting on top of a pillow. The sound was mellower.

mpw

 

[arj]

If you are closer to the back wall, wouldn't that mean that the reflections from behind you are reaching you at, effectively, the same time as the sound from in front of you?

Hi thad. I guess the localised image would be confusing for the brain and that impacts imaging I presume

the bigger issues in proximity to walls would be the room nodes and its impact

 

[arj]

my current speaker stands are conventional ones with a large center column..

would an open frame stand like the ones recommended by harbeth etc.. make a difference ?

mpw

Stands are very speaker specific. Speakers like harbeth with lossy enclosures need open stands. But most speakers need heavy mass to get the best out of them. Ideally need to ask the speaker manufacturer. While you do so also try to find out the ear height needed as that also would change both imaging and coherence


Regarding the pillow under the cdp, what seems to work for you is isolation. Try out the 3 squash ball tweak by placing them under the cdp . One under the transport spindle, one under the power supply and the third at the point to give the cdp stability. Should work far better than a pillow which in my guess would not only be that stable but would not provide the required space for heat dissipation which can impact component life

 

[panditji]

No offence meant, but everyone seems to suggest open stands for Harbeths but as per Alan Shaw(Harbeth speaker designer), they just need regular, fairly solid and reasonably heavy stands..... I think I agree with Alan Shaw...

 

[Hari Iyer]

thank you for contributing to this thread.

Me think there are some tricks that will work given any speaker or amp setup and somethings peculiar to the listening room.

some things that may work are bass traps are tri corner ceilings and first reflection points

some ideas call for re works on the ceilings etc. which is impossible for me.

the carpet will find its way into the system soon..

.. besides we found noticable results with the CDP sitting on top of a pillow. The sound was mellower.

mpw

@ mpw, Congrats on your purchase. Will come down for a listen as schedules permits. If you are considering room treatment, also consider Coir which are used in coir mattress. These have very good absorb, trapping and damping properties. Not mentioned in the audio world as its more of an Indian product not available easily else where. Try to keep all option open and do not debunk any item just because others have not recommended it. Coir can be a much economical solution as its can be easliy available in various size or can be cut to suit areas and thickness. Coir also has honey-comb like structure which can trap certain freq depending upon its density of the mesh. Also with minimum investment you can try out various possibilities that work out for you.

 

[arj]

No offence meant, but everyone seems to suggest open stands for Harbeths but as per Alan Shaw(Harbeth speaker designer), they just need regular, fairly solid and reasonably heavy stands..... I think I agree with Alan Shaw...

What you say is interesting. I have never critically heard a harbeth and my knowledge is very limited to what i have heard or read in forums. Almost everyone till now has mentioned Open stands go the best. to the extent the Richard green who was the editor of absolute sound, is a mathematician and a Harbeth fan himself used Open stands

But i guess Alan Shaw knows best . does he still recommend Skylan Stands ?

Just found this post in the harbeth forum

All Harbeth speakers for as long as I can remember have been designed sitting on top of whatever stand I can lay my hands on .... and I've never been aware of a sonic variability. It may well be true that there are sonic differences, and intellectually I would anticipate that the lighter more compliant stand (such as the Skylan) that can be tuned (aka damped) would give the most useful performance range to the audiophile who wished to experiment. Over the years I've heard more positive reports of lightwight stands than solid ones, and assuming that the accumulated knowledge of many listeners far exceeds my own, I'd have to give that observation credibility.

 

[mpw]

hi,

anyone on the forum using Epos ST12i stands ?

I suppose not many have the Epos M12i but would be interesting to know if anyone has this combo anyways....

mpw