Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles

[venkatcr]

You are missing the point; no issue with the 250MB of music; it's a bit-perfect. However, when those 0 & 1 arrived at the DAC, they also carried line noise with them, and this noise affected DAC's ability to reconstruct the original signal. Where is that noise generated? It could be generated at the drive's storage/USB/power controller. Is storage in question here? No, and as I mentioned before, they are not inventing how data is stored in the storage medium—but employing different techniques at various stages, probably at the storage/USB/power controller level, to reduce this line noise. Cheers.

Line noise is outside the storage environment, including all its electronics. The electronics of the storage affects only what is stored and retrieved inside the disk. As you yourself said, the 250MB of music is bit perfect.

Agreed, the audio data that arrives at the DAC 'could' be corrupted. But saying there is some such thing as an 'audiophile' hard/SSD disk (with all its relevant electronics) that improves the music that is stored is certainly snake oil.

Cheers

Hence, it seems you are saying that Digital DOES Get corrupted, and 0s & 1s dont always remain the same ....

I agree.

That is why, a SOTA implementation tries to minimise if not eliminate errors, rather than correct them later.

The Audiophile SSD seems to be an effort in minimising errors (I'm not saying its successful or otherwise) ,

However, the "Digital Is Perfect ... Forever" brigade and some others just don't appreciate or accept that there are second order (and less obvious to the partially informed) effects that affect Digital.

Hence, it seems you are saying that Digital DOES Get corrupted, and 0s & 1s dont always remain the same ....I agree. That is why, a SOTA implementation tries to minimise if not eliminate errors, rather than correct them later.

This sounds a lot like a scene from Jolly LLB (2) where the lawyer tries to make the honest cop sound like a terrorist irrespective of what he says.

Yes, 0's and 1's don't always remain the same. If and when they are corrupted, they are also corrected. So the chances of your getting incorrect data is negligible to none.

The Audiophile SSD seems to be an effort in minimising errors (I'm not saying its successful or otherwise)

Again, you are assuming that audio data is different from other data insofar as the storage is concerned. It is not. As far as the storage and retrieval of audio data or any other data is concerned there are no errors. You either get a whole block of data accurately, or you get a read (or write) error in which case that block is ignored. But to say the electronics of a storage can alter the stored contents (mostly for the better as claimed by the snake oil vendors) is too far fetched.

However, the "Digital Is Perfect ... Forever" brigade and some others just don't appreciate or accept that there are second order (and less obvious to the partially informed) effects that affect Digital.

Let me give you some simple to understand analogies here.

Analog audio storage is either LPs or tapes. In LPs, over time, the grooves are permanently altered by the needle. The weight and movement of the needle and the tone arm deepens and broadens the grooves. That means that the music you hear after say, an year, from the LP can never be the same as the 'original' sound. In tapes, the tapes using magnetic resonance to store and play the audio data. Since the magnet is a coating on the tape, and the tape is rubbed constantly against the read head, there is an unavoidable wear and tear on the magnetic coating. This means that the data stored on the magnet has been altered. This could affect the gain or the frequency of the audio signal, or both.

In the digital domain there is no physical wear and tear. The audio or any other data file stays the same for years. There is no loss whatsoever.

Digital systems may have 'second order' issues. But, my dear friend, analog systems have physical wear and tear. What are they? First order?

Cheers

 

[amit11]

It is the connection (electrical connection) which gets disturbed (electrical noise profile) and it impacts the circuit of receiver.

Now we are adding a completely new paradigm to the argument. In any case, your 'receiver' is outside the realm of this discussion.

And that is the reason many have experienced that playing song from hard disk (which has motor) sounds less enjoyable than ssd.
Similarly.. different ssd have different circuits inside them... and those can contribute to different kind of electrical disturbance.

And then you come back to the same point that I don't understand. You just said data will be 'read perfectly'. So how can data from one storage be less 'enjoyable' than another? Does that not sound illogical to you? Even assuming you are referring to read speed that might introduce a sync issue, this does not in any way reflect on the storage's capacity to store and deliver digital files (of any kind) perfectly. Moreover, audio files are so small that they can be loaded and stored in the memory to mitigate any read speed issues.

Cheers

By receiver i do not mean the amplifier / receiver. What I mean is it could be DAC for example which is connected to the player (which contains the ssd / harddisk etc)

Lets say the harddisk is attached to the streamer, or the streamer contains ssd inside it. Obviously both work on some voltage/current and it flows through out the streamer.

Since the hard disk has motor, it will to some extent have influence (it may be minor, but it would be still there) in the circuit of the streamer.

So i am talking about those current disturbances which impact the performance of the streamer, in its circuit somewhere.

Note, the data read is perfect. The speed is also perfect, but not the electrical current. In some cases the disturbance of electrical current is less, in some cases it is more. And disturbance in current will obviously cause an impact in the sound directly or indirectly.

 

[superczar]

By receiver i do not mean the amplifier / receiver. What I mean is it could be DAC for example which is connected to the player (which contains the ssd / harddisk etc)

Lets say the harddisk is attached to the streamer, or the streamer contains ssd inside it. Obviously both work on some voltage/current and it flows through out the streamer.

Since the hard disk has motor, it will to some extent have influence (it may be minor, but it would be still there) in the circuit of the streamer.

So i am talking about those current disturbances which impact the performance of the streamer, in its circuit somewhere.

Note, the data read is perfect. The speed is also perfect, but not the electrical current. In some cases the disturbance of electrical current is less, in some cases it is more. And disturbance in current will obviously cause an impact in the sound directly or indirectly.

If that part specifically is a genuine concern, simply electrically uncouple the two.
Let o/p (1s and 0s) from processor (codec decode ) go out optically as undisturbed 1s and 0s to the Digital to Analog Converter

 

[venkatcr]

Super, Superczar!

 

[OM_2K19]

If that part specifically is a genuine concern, simply electrically uncouple the two.
Let o/p (1s and 0s) from processor (codec decode ) go out optically as undisturbed 1s and 0s to the Digital to Analog Converter

From whatever I read, optical (consume grade) cables do not have enough bandwidth to carry lossless or uncompressed audio formats; probably that's why no manufacturer put any effort into developing such an interface.

 

[superczar]

From whatever I read, optical (consume grade) cables do not have enough bandwidth to carry lossless or uncompressed audio formats; probably that's why no manufacturer put any effort into developing such an interface.

I was being just a tiny bit sarcastic
But TOSLINK can do 125mbps - which is way more than enough for 2 channel uncompressed many times over.

The reason you don't really see TOSLINK not being used commonly anymore is that noise over digital data transmission (prior to analog conversion) is a total non issue now.

PS: FWIW, GPS trilateration on any cheap phone uses digital signals at a level of precision that requires adjustments for time dilation due to relativity!
But again, what's the mere theory of special relativity against the mind boggling problem of electrical nasties on digital signals for audio reproduction

 

[keith_correa]

I fail to understand what is really being bandied about here. Noise? Hash? Ringing? What? For my knowledge can someone explain what these nasties are affecting? It is already determined and agreed upon that the data read from the media is uncompromised. OK! Then where is what being compromised exactly if not the data? Are we speaking about power output from the USB port being compromised due to these nasties?
It's fine if one wants to believe in this BS (IMO) but instead of throwing about irrelevant stuff out here to try to explain why/how this works, can we just call it "faith" and leave it as that? I certainly can accept it if explained away like that.

 

[jls001]

I fail to understand what is really being bandied about here.

Another ignoramus here. I promise to form an orderly queue behind you

 

[arj]

Digital seems to be sounding even tougher to get

Another ignoramus here. I promise to form an orderly queue behind you

+1...and i thought getting a turntable optimized was a chore

From whatever I read, optical (consume grade) cables do not have enough bandwidth to carry lossless or uncompressed audio formats; probably that's why no manufacturer put any effort into developing such an interface.

I use optical and prefer it to RCA. the challenge was in 2 areas. 1. the converter from digital to optical and vice versa and 2 . the optical cable

get both of these right and the optical works better with lower jitter.

 

[firearm12]

If audio through an improved hardware such as allo usbridge can sound better than just using vanilla rpi usb port with same software, then why can't a particular harddisk sound better than another. Zeroes and ones sent out from usbridge signature are also same as sent through vanilla rpi usb port but still it sounds better as most people will surely agree.

 

[surfatwork]

Gosh, at this rate, someone will soon be saying that upside down tennis balls on top of and below your pre-amp, and palladium-rhodium fuses with pure gold end caps don't make a difference either!  Whats the world coming to???
Surely, atleast I hope the naysayers here will agree that those do make a HUGE difference?

 

[OM_2K19]

Another interesting discussion.

NVMe SSD designed for audiophiles

Almost a year in the making, the world's only NVMe M2 SSD designed for audiophiles and music lovers. Designed from ground up, co-develop with controller manufacturer using 3D NAND flash with pseudo SLC mode, external clock oscillator, 200% more PCB copper isolation, milspec PCB stiffness, 300% gr...

audiophilestyle.com

 

[venkatcr]

Another interesting discussion.

NVMe SSD designed for audiophiles

Almost a year in the making, the world's only NVMe M2 SSD designed for audiophiles and music lovers. Designed from ground up, co-develop with controller manufacturer using 3D NAND flash with pseudo SLC mode, external clock oscillator, 200% more PCB copper isolation, milspec PCB stiffness, 300% gr...

audiophilestyle.com

This is the same SSD discussed by Toms Hardware.

 

[keith_correa]

Gosh, at this rate, someone will soon be saying that upside down tennis balls on top of and below your pre-amp, and palladium-rhodium fuses with pure gold end caps don't make a difference either!  Whats the world coming to???
Surely, atleast I hope the naysayers here will agree that those do make a HUGE difference?

How does one turn a tennis ball upside down? Which way is up?

 

[liverpool_for_life]

How does one turn a tennis ball upside down? Which way is up?

That's part of the sarcasm-laden post.

 

[arj]

How does one turn a tennis ball upside down? Which way is up?

just needs to throw it down and observe when it comes up..bounce it 10 times and the most consistent up is up..put it the other way and your sound is ruined.

 

[amit11]

Digital seems to be sounding even tougher to get

+1...and i thought getting a turntable optimized was a chore


I use optical and prefer it to RCA. the challenge was in 2 areas. 1. the converter from digital to optical and vice versa and 2 . the optical cable

get both of these right and the optical works better with lower jitter.

I agree. In my case also i have found optical to be better or to my liking.

If we use coax spdif or usb in the chain , a new demon (electrical disturbance) gets introduced in the rest of the chain, and then to solve it we start looking towards better power supply, researching RF, EMI etc ..Atleast that was in my case.

 

[venkatcr]

Surely, atleast I hope the naysayers here will agree that those do make a HUGE difference?

Sure they do. As much as cables kissed by Vestral Virgins do. Now, how do I get some vestral virgins at home to kiss my cable every day in the morning? After all, I am sure that the cleansing effect of the kisses would be washed away by all the noise by the evening? I also have to worry about their losing their virginity to all the noisy, jittery, and short circuited men friends around me. Sigh! How much do I have to do to listen to some music peacefully?

Just a new thought. Maybe I should get my cats and new born kittens to lick and cleanse the cables? After all they love licking their bodies all the time. I am sure my audio system will start purring along nicely.

 

[venkatcr]

If audio through an improved hardware such as allo usbridge can sound better than just using vanilla rpi usb port with same software, then why can't a particular harddisk sound better than another. Zeroes and ones sent out from usbridge signature are also same as sent through vanilla rpi usb port but still it sounds better as most people will surely agree.

1. You are comparing two completely different hardware. In the Allo USBbridge, the RPi is used as just a computing and processing device.
2. It still uses the same hard disk, SD card, and RAM as you would use with the RPi. So there is no difference there. Our discussion here is whether a 'better' hard disk would make a difference. Is the Allo USBBridge offering you or telling you to use an improved hard disk? They are not. They dont care what hard disk you use. They also go with whatever SD card and RAM that the RPi uses.
3. The Allo USBbridge has its own DAC and the output of that is what you hear.
4. Have you ever taken the output from a stock RPi through the USB, fed it to a properly configured external DAC and listened to the sound?
5. The RPi's internal DAC is an inexpensive low quality DAC, and that makes a huge difference. The requirement of the RPI design did not justify an expensive DAC.
6. And remember, at the end of the day, the Allo USBBridge uses the stock data path and connectors that comes with the RPi. What they do is to ensure that, beyond that point, the data is processed properly, DACed well and sent to your ears. The PRI does send the data block from the HDD, SSD, SD or RAM perfectly to the USBBridge. If it does not, you will still hear noise how much ever the Allo dances.
7. As I have said many times before, there can be no doubt on the digital storage and processing. It is what happens to the data after it leaves the digital domain that matter.
8. The same RPi processes and displays pristine 4K video with mind boggling clarity and full 7.1 digital surround sound. You think it is going to be bothered by a piddling two channel sound?

Cheers

 

[raghupb]

Have a very basic question. Someone with a good understanding of PC based audio can pitch in.
For audio, specifically 16/44.1 compressed FLAC or uncompressed WAV, do we need a high speed drive?
I can understand SSD is useful for laptops/desktops to improve on memory read/write speed in a high performing compute environment.

Cheers,
Raghu