rikhav
Well-Known Member
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- Mar 27, 2008
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Something to compete with the Essence XT
- Thread starter magma
- Start date
yes
the sound is a bit on the brighter detailed side as per one reviewer
(though i hardly trust an unknown reveiew)
spirovious
Well-Known Member
Hi friends,
There is other way to get BEST out from your PC.
Say if you have HDMI HD AVR, you can simply but 2 SC,one for Stereo listening & other for HDMI .
ie We can select output from windows of perticular SC which we wish.
In my case ,I can use Xonar & Realtec output with opt selection whichever is neede.
In short you can add 2 sc of your choice,one best for stereo & other for Ht purpose.
There is other way to get BEST out from your PC.
Say if you have HDMI HD AVR, you can simply but 2 SC,one for Stereo listening & other for HDMI .
ie We can select output from windows of perticular SC which we wish.
In my case ,I can use Xonar & Realtec output with opt selection whichever is neede.
In short you can add 2 sc of your choice,one best for stereo & other for Ht purpose.
some in head fi forums
mixed views
but most dont seem to be impressed enough to change from their current emu to the Xonar
they still prefer the Emu 1212 over other cards in the sub 200$ budget
The new flavour however is the Emu 404 USB which is not only a usb soundcard but can also be used as an external DAC
Some say that the cleaner power supply helps it sound better thanthe Emu 1212, some however dont agree
as i said mixed opinions
All said and done the Xonar is hardly adviced by them over the above 2 emu's
(of course its head fi- so the guys are intersted inthe OP amps and ampli stage too)
techenclave has are very own ROC praising the Xonar over the emu though
That is what I have also found. It is down to personal preference it looks like. Most of the threads I have seen seem to recommend Xonar. Some like the EMus and the MAudios for their drivers. And I do understand where they come from.
Actually, IMO its quite the opposite.
I have been following the Xonar STX on head-fi & FWIR most users who have actually used STX & others(EMU404/1212, Claro halo) have preferred the Xonar STX over the others.
Magma and others interested - I found some information on the subject of Xonar Essence vs Omega Claro.
---------------------------------
It's hard to get the information you need when you are making these sorts of decisions. The amount of noise out there is exceedingly high.
The STX possesses a few advantageous features that I feel are relevant:
(a) It uses the TI PCM1792, which is their top of the line d/a converter and the performance is substantially higher than the Asahi-Kasei converter in the Claro. It is also much higher performance than the Crystal/Cirrus chips Creative uses.
(b) The PCM1792 is a current-output chip, which means that you're getting the output straight out of the bit ladders rather than after a switched capacitor filter + buffer like on a voltage output chip. This means, essentially, more control over what the output is going to sound like and you can avoid some of the performance limitations imposed by the v-out architecture. It also means avoiding the capacitor coupling direct out of the dac output that is generally employed with v-out designs. I usually buffer the output on a v-out dac before going to the coupling caps in any design I work on, but manufacturers tend to follow the app notes which infrequently employ such an approach, and it seems to me that performance suffers for it. Plus, the coupling caps are generally of poor quality and aluminum electrolytic type, which means even more distortion versus something like using film capacitors.
(c) It uses relatively good film capacitors for the analog LPF, which is nice for keeping distortion down
(d) Both the i/v (current to voltage conversion) and active LPF op-amps are socketed, so you can tweak fairly easily.
The stock chips are decent, though not my preference. If you decide to try something else there, let me know and I'll try to help you out. If you have soldering skills, that would be helpful as some of the better chips require use of an SOIC-to-DIP adaptor to use here, which means soldering a surface mount part onto the adaptor. It's not exceedingly difficult to do, though .
The only thing I'm slightly unsure about is whether it has clean enough power to use some of the chips I'm thinking of, but it's probably at least worth a shot. I'd probably have picked up one of these cards except that I already have a high performance external dac setup that I use for everything (both gaming and music).
----------------------------
The original link can be found here - http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1034042095&postcount=25
Nothing yet in comparison with the Cardeluxe though. Lets see.
---------------------------------
It's hard to get the information you need when you are making these sorts of decisions. The amount of noise out there is exceedingly high.
The STX possesses a few advantageous features that I feel are relevant:
(a) It uses the TI PCM1792, which is their top of the line d/a converter and the performance is substantially higher than the Asahi-Kasei converter in the Claro. It is also much higher performance than the Crystal/Cirrus chips Creative uses.
(b) The PCM1792 is a current-output chip, which means that you're getting the output straight out of the bit ladders rather than after a switched capacitor filter + buffer like on a voltage output chip. This means, essentially, more control over what the output is going to sound like and you can avoid some of the performance limitations imposed by the v-out architecture. It also means avoiding the capacitor coupling direct out of the dac output that is generally employed with v-out designs. I usually buffer the output on a v-out dac before going to the coupling caps in any design I work on, but manufacturers tend to follow the app notes which infrequently employ such an approach, and it seems to me that performance suffers for it. Plus, the coupling caps are generally of poor quality and aluminum electrolytic type, which means even more distortion versus something like using film capacitors.
(c) It uses relatively good film capacitors for the analog LPF, which is nice for keeping distortion down
(d) Both the i/v (current to voltage conversion) and active LPF op-amps are socketed, so you can tweak fairly easily.
The stock chips are decent, though not my preference. If you decide to try something else there, let me know and I'll try to help you out. If you have soldering skills, that would be helpful as some of the better chips require use of an SOIC-to-DIP adaptor to use here, which means soldering a surface mount part onto the adaptor. It's not exceedingly difficult to do, though .
The only thing I'm slightly unsure about is whether it has clean enough power to use some of the chips I'm thinking of, but it's probably at least worth a shot. I'd probably have picked up one of these cards except that I already have a high performance external dac setup that I use for everything (both gaming and music).
----------------------------
The original link can be found here - http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1034042095&postcount=25
Nothing yet in comparison with the Cardeluxe though. Lets see.
On the same note, I found some related information comparing the Essence STX with the EMU 1212m and the ESI Juli. It may not surprise many that the Essence receives most of the kudos here as well.
---------------------
I signed up for an account on head-fi just to comment about the Xonar Essence STX. This sound card is AMAZING. The performance "out of the box" (default stock configuration in hardware and drivers) is better than any sound card I have ever heard or tested, and I have heard/tested about 20-30 of them now while looking for the perfect solution for my hi-fi HTPC setup. My goal was to go with a soundcard with balanced analog output (so I can remove any extra D/A-A/D conversion steps), so the Essence STX was the last card I tried due to its lack of balanced outputs.
I put the Essence STX in my HTPC, connected to a Crown XLS-402 amplifier via RCA-to-XLR cables (standard RCA "line" output on Essence), then to a few different pairs of speakers.
The first pair was my inherited set of mint Klipsch Belles (purchased brand new by my father in 1974 from Paul Klipsch himself). The sound was amazing. Crystal-clear, excellent separation and staging, extended rich and accurate bass, treble with amazing clarity and totally lacking in harshness, etc. It sounds so good that I just sat there and listened to about 10-20 albums in a row, I mean I wasted an entire day just listening to music (a very good sign when you've just purchased new gear). Turned the amp up until my decibel meter read 120db to see if I could hear distortion or if it would sound fatiguing, and then played a FLAC copy of the London Symphony playing the 1812 Overture with real cannon fire. It sounded awesome, with no distortion at all, and was surprisingly very easy to listen to.
Don't know what you guys are talking about when you say the JRC opamps lack bass extension. The cannon fire was powerful enough to knock dishes out of my cabinets, knocked a few pictures off the walls, and overall impressed the living hell out of me. Likewise, when the police arrived due to a noise complaint, one of the cops had his hand on his gun and said he had heard gunfire while approaching my house. I played the track for them and they got a big kick out of it and then asked me to turn it down.
Next was a pair of PSB Stratus Golds. Same experience. I noticed no weakness at all in the source, at any volume. The only thing I could comment on with the PSBs was that it sounded like the sound suffered a little bit of an excessive decay in the lower treble registers, and the upper midrange was a little boomy - but I believe that is due to the design of the PSBs, not the analog signal coming out of my sound card. The separation is phenomenal however, you can hear each instrument distinctly and clearly. It has amazing 3-dimensional staging, and the sound-stage is wide and deep, extending well past the side and rear walls of my listening room.
I can't say enough about this card. It is an amazing deal at $200. I have NEVER heard sound this good from my HTPC.
What's even crazier is that I'm now running unbalanced analog from the RCA output on the Essence to the XLR inputs on my Crown amp, and TOTALLY LOVING IT. I'm not going to change a thing. I never thought I would run unbalanced analog cables in my system again, after swapping to balanced a long time ago. But there is truly no distortion in the original signal, it's cleaner than the balanced XLRs I was running from the EMU 1212m.
To test this theory, I again plugged in the Belle Klipsch's and turned my amp all the way up and turned the PC audio all the way up, without playing anything. With the EMU 1212m, I can hear very quiet hissing and an extremely quiet hum with my ear pressed against the speakers (this is with the balanced analog cables). With the Xonar Essence STX, I hear nothing. Needless to say, it amazes me that I have less noise with unbalanced RCAs on the Essence than I did with balanced XLR on the EMU 1212m.
I know some people will say, well, balanced analog is going to be +4db, versus the -10db of the unbalanced. I have only one response to this. When you are pushing over 400 watts RMS to a speaker with 105db of sensitivity, you are going to hear EVERYTHING, regardless of whether your input is +4/-10db. Trust me.
I can't recommend this card enough. It's the best current hi-fi sound card on the market, hands-down, and I've tried everything: the Juli@, Emu 1212m, an offboard DAC1 (overpriced and overrated IMHO), the HT Omega Claro, Creative X-Fi, a few Auzentech cards, you name it. No other card has come close to the Essence STX in pure audio quality to this point.
---------------------
Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio - View Single Post - Xonar Essence STX: Sneak Peek!
But then folks, these are just individuals posting their impressions. End of the day, there appears to be no direct shootouts. And even if we do find a shootout we know how much stock to place in a review. Nowadays I find myself not quite believing even Stereophile reviews when they ooh and aah about so many products.
---------------------
I signed up for an account on head-fi just to comment about the Xonar Essence STX. This sound card is AMAZING. The performance "out of the box" (default stock configuration in hardware and drivers) is better than any sound card I have ever heard or tested, and I have heard/tested about 20-30 of them now while looking for the perfect solution for my hi-fi HTPC setup. My goal was to go with a soundcard with balanced analog output (so I can remove any extra D/A-A/D conversion steps), so the Essence STX was the last card I tried due to its lack of balanced outputs.
I put the Essence STX in my HTPC, connected to a Crown XLS-402 amplifier via RCA-to-XLR cables (standard RCA "line" output on Essence), then to a few different pairs of speakers.
The first pair was my inherited set of mint Klipsch Belles (purchased brand new by my father in 1974 from Paul Klipsch himself). The sound was amazing. Crystal-clear, excellent separation and staging, extended rich and accurate bass, treble with amazing clarity and totally lacking in harshness, etc. It sounds so good that I just sat there and listened to about 10-20 albums in a row, I mean I wasted an entire day just listening to music (a very good sign when you've just purchased new gear). Turned the amp up until my decibel meter read 120db to see if I could hear distortion or if it would sound fatiguing, and then played a FLAC copy of the London Symphony playing the 1812 Overture with real cannon fire. It sounded awesome, with no distortion at all, and was surprisingly very easy to listen to.
Don't know what you guys are talking about when you say the JRC opamps lack bass extension. The cannon fire was powerful enough to knock dishes out of my cabinets, knocked a few pictures off the walls, and overall impressed the living hell out of me. Likewise, when the police arrived due to a noise complaint, one of the cops had his hand on his gun and said he had heard gunfire while approaching my house. I played the track for them and they got a big kick out of it and then asked me to turn it down.
Next was a pair of PSB Stratus Golds. Same experience. I noticed no weakness at all in the source, at any volume. The only thing I could comment on with the PSBs was that it sounded like the sound suffered a little bit of an excessive decay in the lower treble registers, and the upper midrange was a little boomy - but I believe that is due to the design of the PSBs, not the analog signal coming out of my sound card. The separation is phenomenal however, you can hear each instrument distinctly and clearly. It has amazing 3-dimensional staging, and the sound-stage is wide and deep, extending well past the side and rear walls of my listening room.
I can't say enough about this card. It is an amazing deal at $200. I have NEVER heard sound this good from my HTPC.
What's even crazier is that I'm now running unbalanced analog from the RCA output on the Essence to the XLR inputs on my Crown amp, and TOTALLY LOVING IT. I'm not going to change a thing. I never thought I would run unbalanced analog cables in my system again, after swapping to balanced a long time ago. But there is truly no distortion in the original signal, it's cleaner than the balanced XLRs I was running from the EMU 1212m.
To test this theory, I again plugged in the Belle Klipsch's and turned my amp all the way up and turned the PC audio all the way up, without playing anything. With the EMU 1212m, I can hear very quiet hissing and an extremely quiet hum with my ear pressed against the speakers (this is with the balanced analog cables). With the Xonar Essence STX, I hear nothing. Needless to say, it amazes me that I have less noise with unbalanced RCAs on the Essence than I did with balanced XLR on the EMU 1212m.
I know some people will say, well, balanced analog is going to be +4db, versus the -10db of the unbalanced. I have only one response to this. When you are pushing over 400 watts RMS to a speaker with 105db of sensitivity, you are going to hear EVERYTHING, regardless of whether your input is +4/-10db. Trust me.
I can't recommend this card enough. It's the best current hi-fi sound card on the market, hands-down, and I've tried everything: the Juli@, Emu 1212m, an offboard DAC1 (overpriced and overrated IMHO), the HT Omega Claro, Creative X-Fi, a few Auzentech cards, you name it. No other card has come close to the Essence STX in pure audio quality to this point.
---------------------
Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio - View Single Post - Xonar Essence STX: Sneak Peek!
But then folks, these are just individuals posting their impressions. End of the day, there appears to be no direct shootouts. And even if we do find a shootout we know how much stock to place in a review. Nowadays I find myself not quite believing even Stereophile reviews when they ooh and aah about so many products.
Magma - I have been reading your posts and threads in the other Hifi forum and your discussions with ReignofChaos in this matter. Most intersting. It also shows how serious you are in this pursuit of yours.
Looks like the Essence ST is not available here for love or money. I guess the $350 question is whether the Cardeluxe is better than the Xonar Essence STX/ST in terms of 2 channel audio reproduction. Many a time these pro-audio cards focus on audio recording where we (at least I) have no such burning need.
Looks like the Essence ST is not available here for love or money
. I guess the $350 question is whether the Cardeluxe is better than the Xonar Essence STX/ST in terms of 2 channel audio reproduction. Many a time these pro-audio cards focus on audio recording where we (at least I) have no such burning need.the only reason im considering the JUli is because i cant seem to get my hands of the Xonar ST!
Emu 1212 is a great card but ive been warned by more than one senior about complicated drivers
thats something i hate.(though i know i can learn it ) i dont like the idea of having to do it and keep fiddling with the mixers and being unsure whether i have it right or not !
)
ive been offered an M audio 1010 too for a good price
im not too sure what to do
get the M audio the juli or wait patiently till i can get a xonar st ( i dont know how long though!)
Emu 1212 is a great card but ive been warned by more than one senior about complicated drivers
thats something i hate.(though i know i can learn it ) i dont like the idea of having to do it and keep fiddling with the mixers and being unsure whether i have it right or not !
)ive been offered an M audio 1010 too for a good price
im not too sure what to do
get the M audio the juli or wait patiently till i can get a xonar st ( i dont know how long though!)
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rikhav
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- Messages
- 2,668
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the only reason im considering the JUli is because i cant seem to get my hands of the Xonar ST!
Emu 1212 is a great card but ive been warned by more than one senior about complicated drivers
thats something i hate.(though i know i can learn it ) i dont like the idea of having to do it and keep fiddling with the mixers and being unsure whether i have it right or not !
ive been offered an M audio 1010 too for a good price
im not too sure what to do
get the M audio the juli or wait patiently till i can get a xonar st ( i dont know how long though!)
Hi Ali
I think once you get the right settings, you dont need to keep fiddling with it. So if you think sound quality wise Emu 1212 meets your standards then you should go for it. I have a Terratec Aureon Universe sound card. The driver and the control panel is not one of the easiest to use, specially if you are using it for the first time. But then after some time I got used to it atleast for the features i want.
Secondly about the Asus, if you think the PC is going to be your source for a long time you should try hard and wait a little longer and go for the Asus sound card.
Does any one know where I can find these opamp adapters in India or better in new delhi ?
spirovious
Well-Known Member
It shid be available on RSONLINE
Rem
New Member
the only reason im considering the JUli is because i cant seem to get my hands of the Xonar ST!
Emu 1212 is a great card but ive been warned by more than one senior about complicated drivers
thats something i hate.(though i know i can learn it ) i dont like the idea of having to do it and keep fiddling with the mixers and being unsure whether i have it right or not !
ive been offered an M audio 1010 too for a good price
im not too sure what to do
get the M audio the juli or wait patiently till i can get a xonar st ( i dont know how long though!)
Magma,
How much is it for the Juli & the M-Audio. Which M-Audio card where you considering.
the only reason im considering the JUli is because i cant seem to get my hands of the Xonar ST!
Emu 1212 is a great card but ive been warned by more than one senior about complicated drivers
thats something i hate.(though i know i can learn it ) i dont like the idea of having to do it and keep fiddling with the mixers and being unsure whether i have it right or not !
ive been offered an M audio 1010 too for a good price
im not too sure what to do
get the M audio the juli or wait patiently till i can get a xonar st ( i dont know how long though!)
I have been doing some fast paced reading on this, Magma and there has been a lot of bull about the complication involved with pro cards such as the E-MU 1212m. Basically you have to get deeply involved with the Patchmix software only if you are going to record your own music. I am not going to do that and I guess you may not too - correct me if I am wrong.
In such cases, there should be no problem.
I have myself asked my brother to get an E-MU 0404 USB for me. This, even though, the 1212m with the better DAC chip, is quite a bit cheaper than the 0404 USB. The 0404 USB has been measured to have much lower clock jitter than the 1212m, it has a headphone amp, can be used without having to connect it to the computer. There is also some interesting item about the sound card switching to different sampling rates automatically based on the source file played. I am having trouble believing and/or understanding that.
If we use a software resampler and have all content uniformly resampled to one rate, there is not going to be any of this 'automatic sample rate switching' thing - that is my understanding.
I expect the 1212m and the 0404 USB to be very worthy competitors to the Xonar Essence. Lets see how it turns out.
If I am not mistaken, Cranky has the 1212m and has tested the Essence. Cranky - have you compared these two? What are your thoughts? On outright music performance alone. Nothing else.
If budget were not a constraint, some of the RME Hammerfalls on sale were down to about $450. There was also the E-MU 1616m with the separate breakout box. Then of course there are the Lynx cards starting from about $650 onwards.
The Esi Juli however was not very highly talked about when analog outputs were the focus of the discussion. It is certainly not a bad card, but there are better options if one were planning to use the analog outs. That seems to be what a lot of people seem to think.
The Esi Juli however was not very highly talked about when analog outputs were the focus of the discussion. It is certainly not a bad card, but there are better options if one were planning to use the analog outs. That seems to be what a lot of people seem to think.
well there is only the Emu 1212. 404 and the xonar from what ive read
which would better the juli on analogue
(the juli is at par or better than the M audio 2496 or the 192 from my research even leaving the Echo mia Midi behind)
what have you read?
wouldnt a Peter daniel or even a keces or used stello dac make more sense than the emu 404 usb
if youre looking for an external dac?
i would think so!
cranky has the 1212
he hasnt actaully comapred it with a Xonar
i thin it was he who suggested i go for a juli rather than an emu in the absence of a Xonar( driver issues and also for my basic rig i wouldnt actually notice the difference)
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Magma - I do not want to take a chance with a cheap Chinese DAC - however good they might be. Also the major selling point of these types of DACs on ebay are their actual DAC chips. There is no measurement provided in most cases of jitter and other related aspects. And the mention of the maximum SNR value really has no meaning. If it gets above 100 db it is anyway bereft of meaning
.The 0404 USB has the same DAC used in the 'Transporter'. Also with a clock jitter value less than that of the 1212m I expect big things out of it. In fact these are the cards which I eventually wanted to decided between. Just went with the 0404 USB for the additional flexibility it brings in. Also went in for that because this DAC was said to sound warmer than the 1212m which tended to be a bit analytical and cold. Not placing a huge weightage on these though as individual opinions could differ widely.
My instructions to my bro though has been that if he finds the 0404 USB heavy or unwieldy he is to bring back the 1212m!
Also the 1212 is a whole different creature than the 1212m. The 'M' stands for mastering grade A/D and D/A converters used! This has the same chip as found in the flagship E-MU 1616m. Not bad at all.
Plus there is also the aspect of the sound card being located within the cabinet box of the computer. There are as many people opposed to this as people who say this is not of consequence. In any case, if I get a dedicated power supply upgrade for the 0404 USB, that should be good.
Lastly I am dead set against used options. If I were open to that the first thing I would do is go get a used Lynx card.
I am open to suggestions though, Magma. Any thoughts?
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