Something to compete with the Essence XT

[sachi]

Sachi - with all due respect I have gone through that thread and read what Dan Lavry has to say. While I am no match for his sound engineer skills, this is what Peter - the developer of the XXHighEnd player has to say. Regardless of what the measurements say, it cannot be disputed that the NOS implementation provides euphonic sound. Importantly more natural sounding than other implementations.

Why that is so may be as yet unexplained. But what the human ear is hearing may not be disputed. I have experienced the same thing with tube amps which of course do not have the specs that my solid state NAD amp does. Just my 2 rupees

More discussion on this can be found in the Computer Audiophile forums as well.

Hi Vortex,

I too was a NOS believer once upon a time. I thought the world of my Scott Nixon USB Chibi Saru DAC. To me it sounded better than the Bel Canto DAC 2 (this was before I came to realize that the Bel Canto isn't all that good of a DAC implementation in the first place). I had the Scott Nixon for over two years before I came upon the Parasound DAC-1100H/D which totally annihilated it. And the Scott Nixon is quite similar in implmentation of the analog stage whcih is passive I/V , filterless and unbuffered and ses the same DAC chip as the PD NOS one does.

Hi
I am not making a generic statement across all current generation DACs. My opinion was limited to some CDPs/DACs I have heard incl some high end ones. I will concede that my inherent taste/bias will also have something to do with it .
Which DACs are you referring to, perhaps you can list a few, if I have access to them, I can listen to them. On the new generation, I have the ESS Sabre DAC which I quite like, however I still like the PD NOS DAC better.
cheers

Sridhar..some good DACs IMO, Spectral SDR-2000 Pro, Assemblage DAC 2.0, 2.6, 2.7, 3.0, 3.1, SF TransDAC, SFD MK1, SFD MK2, Parasound DAC1100HD, DAC-1600HD, Pacific Microsonics Model One, Model 2, the DCS stack, Esoteric D70..the legendary ML 30.6 and the list goes on.


The ESS sabre (TPA Buffallo 24 and 32 bit ones) aren't anything special. I have heard them both.

 

[anm]

let it take some shape and let me shift my rented acco and I will do the listening. I have no issues sending it across to you to have a listen too, if I can figure out how to pack and send.
I think (and I can be wrong) opamp soldering is not required they can be pushed into a socket.

regards

Anm - that DAC is now priced at just $69! I cannot tell you how tempting that is. If only you would be so kind as to listen to it critically and let us know where it stands vis a vis other DACs or CD Players that you have heard, this should seal the deal.

The other concern I have is on whether we would need to get ourselves involved with soldering op amps. In a scenario like mine where there is a PC -> DAC -> INtegrated amp, can the DAC be fitted as bought from ebay? Of course after adding a case.

 

[reignofchaos]

I am very skeptical about NOS DACs. The whole passive I/V and filter-less output is just a huge fail in design philosophy.

Honestly, i do believe you need to check out well implemented DACs that don't use 80s consumer electronics DAC chips.

Sridhar, it is totally untrue what you call exaggerated highs from current generation DACs, specifically R-2R ladder DACs. This thread gives an insight into the whole NOS fiasco.
Its a worthwhile read and it would help to be slightly knowledgeable about electronics.

What Dan Lavry said in that post of his was that a non oversampling dac with a 3 pole analog filter is complete bull. I kinda agree with him on that. But what I'm talking about here is a DAC with no analog filters at all. The job of filtering is left to the listener's ears. There is bound to be IMD and all kinds of funny artifacts at the output if you measure and in theory, a NOS implementation without any filtering ought to perform super poorly. But to my ears, it sounds more natural than anything I've heard.

If you like how esoteric sounds, well you'd not like NOS dacs in the first place.

PS: I don't agree to Dan's argument that any energy more than 20kHz ought to be removed with digital filters for downstream equipment to function properly. Most good equipment has a bandwidth exceeding 100kHz so its really a non issue. Plus the energy in the images in the ultrasonic frequency spectra is exponentially low compared to the real signal generated.

 

[sachi]

What Dan Lavry said in that post of his was that a non oversampling dac with a 3 pole analog filter is complete bull. I kinda agree with him on that. But what I'm talking about here is a DAC with no analog filters at all. The job of filtering is left to the listener's ears. There is bound to be IMD and all kinds of funny artifacts at the output if you measure and in theory, a NOS implementation without any filtering ought to perform super poorly. But to my ears, it sounds more natural than anything I've heard.

If you like how esoteric sounds, well you'd not like NOS dacs in the first place.

PS: I don't agree to Dan's argument that any energy more than 20kHz ought to be removed with digital filters for downstream equipment to function properly. Most good equipment has a bandwidth exceeding 100kHz so its really a non issue. Plus the energy in the images in the ultrasonic frequency spectra is exponentially low compared to the real signal generated.

Again, I stress the fact that when I had my NOS DAC I did not get to listen to good implementations of OS DACs..at the time i thought the Scott Nixon sounded wonderful. I bought a second one after I had bought my Parasound DAC. The parasound absolutely demolished it.

And it is not a digital filter rather an analog reconstruction filter that removes high frequency artifacts and harmonics. And the comment about letting your ears filter the sound is a joke. It is more like you are ignoring all the distortion and perceiving it to be 'natural'..oh how easily that word is thrown around.

Lavry DACs aren't all that great either IMO. I believe if you do get to listen to any of the DACs I have mentioned above you might be forced to reconsider. Then again..whatever rocks your boat.

 

[thevortex]

Sachi - I guess we all accept that better DACs than the ones in question do exist. In particular we are discussing DAC solutions in the vicinity of $300. In your experience if there is any DAC - NOS or OS implementation - that has the capability of beating an ASUS Xonar Essence, please share.

 

[thevortex]

Folks - I have written to Peter Daniel and have gotten back a response from him. The TDA NOS DAC kits are still available and the standalone kit is priced at $250. The transformer is an additional $30 and the Cardas dual RCA is $20.

If you are like me and want something less troublesome than having to solder things on a circuit, then he also offers a completely assembled and tested circuit mounted on a wooden board for $80 more. There are already two people interested counting me in.

I was wanting to check to see if there are others interested so that we can go for a group buy of sorts. Please post in this thread or send me a PM so that I can write back to Peter on this.

 

[magma]

just so you know
peter offers no group buy discounts that i know off except for the shipping savings.

vortex is your relative willingto carry 4-5 kits ( considering there is intrest?)?
(i dont think they would be bulky but then too)

also note that the 250$ is with the regular caps
if you want the black gates its 280$ ( at least thats what his mail said to me)
However i have reports that the regular panasonic caps are good too!

 

[thevortex]

just so you know
peter offers no group buy discounts that i know off except for the shipping savings.

vortex is your relative willingto carry 4-5 kits ( considering there is intrest?)?
(i dont think they would be bulky but then too)

also note that the 250$ is with the regular caps
if you want the black gates its 280$ ( at least thats what his mail said to me)
However i have reports that the regular panasonic caps are good too!

I was thinking more on the lines of Peter shipping the DAC's straight to home. But lets see how that works out.

I will check with him on the Black Gates. But the prices that you mention happen to be exactly those of the USB versus the SPDIF ones. So, the SPDIF ones are the ones with the Black gate caps?

 

[reignofchaos]

And it is not a digital filter rather an analog reconstruction filter that removes high frequency artifacts and harmonics. And the comment about letting your ears filter the sound is a joke. It is more like you are ignoring all the distortion and perceiving it to be 'natural'..oh how easily that word is thrown around.

Lavry DACs aren't all that great either IMO. I believe if you do get to listen to any of the DACs I have mentioned above you might be forced to reconsider. Then again..whatever rocks your boat.

Well its basically a low pass filter to remove anything beyond the audible range. One needs oversampling simply because you can't have a filter that functions as a brick wall. You can have filters with gentler slopes.

As I said the definition of "demolished" can vary from person to person and what sounds good is also personal. I agree though - whatever rocks your boat. There are bad OS dacs and there are bad NOS dacs. The vice versa also holds true.

Writing off a product simply because you've heard something else which uses the same chip and a common design decision is very shortsighted in my opinion.

 

[sachi]

Writing off a product simply because you've heard something else which uses the same chip and a common design decision is very shortsighted in my opinion.

Am just saying my ears are quite tuned to hearing that distortion taht you apparently like. Which is what is being marketed as "Natural" in such DACs..so I wouldn't even care to listen to NOS DACs now knowing how good OS DACs can be...and a passive I/V ..come on.

And might I add that the SN NOS DAC is just as revered if not more than the PD NOS DAC FWIW.

 

[magma]

the SPDIF dac is 280$ with black gates
the USB is 250$ with black gates
usb is cheaper

vortex and all
if the SPDIF dac is shipped here it will easily work out to 400$
to your doorstep
now considering a (8000 buck) 175$ essence hmmm
you need to see whats VFM for you

i would advice only those having at least a mid fi system to go DAC hunting
for entry level rigs i would consider an SC ( vortex i see is sitting on the wall though i think ive guessed which way hes gonna jump seeing his intrest)

 

[grubyhalo]

...The ESS sabre (TPA Buffallo 24 and 32 bit ones) aren't anything special. I have heard them both.

I'm hoping the OP wouldn't mind this OT too much. As someone who's is very interested in the TPA Buffalo 32, I am piqued by this comment. Could you please tell me what DACs that you consider better than the Buffalo and how much they cost? I understand this would be just your opinion. Thanks.

 

[magma]

the OP hopes that discussion is limited to a few posts only

 

[grubyhalo]

the OP hopes that discussion is limited to a few posts only

The OP is hereby thanked and is assured that his wishes would be respected...

 

[magma]

gruby
i know people who use the buffalo and swear by it
(everyone has their opinion )

 

[grubyhalo]

gruby
i know people who use the buffalo and swear by it
(everyone has their opinion )

Absolutely! I am pretty much sold on it. It's just that I'd like to know what Sachi's comparision was to and what price they were...

 

[thevortex]

Hmm.. now is the Scott Nixon Chibi competitive against the PD NOS DAC? Any thoughts Magma?

 

[magma]

Hmm.. now is the Scott Nixon Chibi competitive against the PD NOS DAC? Any thoughts Magma?

both use almost the same chip however the PD has other exotic components that the scott nixon doesnt

now i dont know how much it will impact the sound
what i do know is the peter is a perfectionist and that his dac has evolved a bit

his is the only USB dac in which USB has been implemented correctly
the USB willbeat even coaxial ( which is rare to see in any dac!)

 

[thevortex]

So, Magma what are you finally going to settle down with?

 

[thevortex]

let it take some shape and let me shift my rented acco and I will do the listening. I have no issues sending it across to you to have a listen too, if I can figure out how to pack and send.
I think (and I can be wrong) opamp soldering is not required they can be pushed into a socket.

regards

Well, well, anm - I somehow missed this post. That was a generous offer to send the DAC across. But that might be too much trouble. I would love to have your subjective opinion on the DAC whenever you get a chance to hear it.

Or if Viren had something to say about it, that too would be interesting and useful.