speaker positioning

[ghatgepatil]

"ideally you should not hear the subs when On but miss it when off".... at least for music.
+1. Absolutely true!

 

[john_k_antony]

I think we should not hijack this thread for Sub woofer discussion. This thread should go on with discussing main speaker position and concentrate on Stereo.

One more sad thing I see is that when ever people start discussing about Sub-woofers, its positioning and more importantly BASS, it always ends up in a more personal debate with lots of very strong personal opinion and un-healthy verbal attacks . Don't want to pollute this great thread with that.

I am starting a new thread soon on my experience with my latest HT upgrades. And will explain my experiments with Sub-woofer placement suggested by Manoj and Arj. I also have some great inputs from another veteran - Sanjay (sdurani) and few other FMs when I was playing around with only 1 sub.

OT : I just realized, its so easy to get a great video. I spend less than an hour to configure my video and its almost impossible to get the "ideal" sound :lol:.

Thank you very much guys.

-John.

 

[mpw]

Nice thread mpw!

Glad to hear that your happy with what you have currently & are now going to enjoy your set-up more than before.

This hobby of ours is like going on a rollercoaster ride, which is full of surprises.
Patience is always the key, a virtue which not many of us have in our favor leading to rash decisions being taken, mostly leading to a wrong direction.

Whilst I agree to some of your observations which you have alphabetically bullet-ed, I also dis-agree to some but will discuss about them with you in person, lest some FM(s) get hurt/upset by me saying so here

Have been experimenting with some rather plain jane/ordinary electronics & cabling with good speakers & have been proved that if you optimise what you have to play with, you can get surprisingly good results pretty much effortlessly. So whilst theory is good, practice is where the fun & actual learning really is.

In short, start with what you've got & max its potential out to the fullest before pulling the upgrade trigger!

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denom,

this thread is started for a purpose - a discussion.

So me thinks you can state relevant points of interest even divergences.

Only then will the thread be alive.

mpw

 

[himadri]

Hi
The Cardas positioning for short wall placement worked in my room (12x14).Two diy chunk traps in the corner behind the speakers cleaned up the bass.Audio art interconnects and Jps labs speaker cables(bi wire) maintained signal purity sans interferences.Contrary to general perception, listening position against the back wall filled up the lower mids thus evening out the upper treble sharpness and also maintaining enough distance for driver integration.
cheers

 

[john_k_antony]

-----------------------------------------------------------------
denom,

this thread is started for a purpose - a discussion.

So me thinks you can state relevant points of interest even divergences.

Only then will the thread be alive.

mpw

+100 to above.

Denom, we all know your passion, enthusiasm and extremely informative and un-biased audition reports of different audio gear.

I think we all appreciate your opinion and comments. Would request you to share your open and un-biased comments and thoughts for the benefit of all of us .

Thanks,
John.

 

[john_k_antony]

Hi
The Cardas positioning for short wall placement worked in my room (12x14).Two diy chunk traps in the corner behind the speakers cleaned up the bass.Audio art interconnects and Jps labs speaker cables(bi wire) maintained signal purity sans interferences.Contrary to general perception, listening position against the back wall filled up the lower mids thus evening out the upper treble sharpness and also maintaining enough distance for driver integration.
cheers

Could you please share the pics and specs (like materials used, dimensions etc) of the DIY bass traps?

 

[hydra]

Hi,

i thought i would like to contribute my observations over the last week or so especially since i posted and withdrew a sale thread on my poor Epos M12i standmounts.

See attached pics.. one was where the speakers used to be and the other ohe is the one got in consultation with some very respected minds.

The reason i withdrew the sale was that i realised :-

a. the AV rack in the middle of the speakers is a totally bad idea. It is about 7.5 ft wide and when i played the speakers even with about 1 feet from the wall i realise each speaker was singing individually.

there was no handshake and resultantly no soundstage to speak of.

b. Now i came across the cardas speaker positioning ( thanks man ! ) and that set a few things in order. The width of mr rear wall is 12.75 ft and with that in mind i placed the speakers 3.4 ft from the side wall and speaker - speaker about 6 feet. The speakers were pulled out 1.75 meters from the rear wall.

Voila - communication, synergy, soundstage.. was soooo much better

c. One very senior FM was home yesterday and one of the line of thought was to pull the speakers even further forward from the edge of the AV rack ( and not measured from the wall ) and that gave much better sound. the female voices, tabla had that beat to it which i never got.

d. Seating position - equilateral triangle about 6 ft from the speaker and an old carpet thrown inbetween the speakers ( doesnt look good decor wise but worked fine sound wise ).

maybe i get a better carpet.. cheaper than getting new speakers na ??

I wondered why i wanted to sell the speakers at all !!

Few things in my mind which i thought i must record for all to discuss / comment etc..

:-

a. The smaller the speaker cabinet - the better it works with rear wall support - the other day the Amphion 410 was home and we were witness to the lovely sound it made. Nice bass etension.

b. The Eposes were inadverdently made to play again close to the rear wall - their cabinet size is larger - port on the rear and boy - no wonder there was moderate tango.

c. Possible the Spendors with the largest cabinet needed to be at the position of the Eposes in the attached picture ( the 2nd pic )

d. Most importantly - that day - we were all seated too far behind me thinks.

Would have been nice to see all of them play where i play the Eposes now.

d. My hall is the common entertainment area which shares space with TV etc.. and therefore in my house as in all others ( save 1 or 2 lucky ones with their own room ).. the room is the greatest compromise. :sad:

You can take your amp, cdp or speaker to the dealers place but not the room !!

e. having said that .. once you know your room.. it is important to work on the placement to get the speakers going.

f. At the price range of below a lakh.. there will not be significant difference in the output of a vast majority of speakers.

g. At a price point of maybe 1.5 to 2 L.. when money begins to sing ?? .. the speakers will beigin to sing too.. but that need not close the loop..

Indeed that can be the beginning of another upgrade.. of the electronics to match the speakers !!



the key is to reach a balance and stop for some time till the urge to change for variety :lol: strikes again ( maybe after 2 or 3 years of ownership ). Not change just because some speaker did some thing a touch better.

Unless it did something significantly better.

But largely once you realize your room i think you will be safe enough not to rock the boat too much and get into costly electronics. The attempt must be to push the envelope.. not tear the envelope completely.

denom and prem .. many thanks !!

To the guys who PM'ed me and encouraged me to stop the Epos sale.. cheers to you too !!

Not that nothing will change for me.. but i need to look hard for a very strong reason to change.

I wanted to start this thread so folks could upload photos of their stereo rigs withy actual seating position.

One can discuss implications of seating position here too..

I will let the thread flow.. hope it picks up steam in a very meaningful way.

even if it doesnt and if you happen to read this thread and it saves you some upgrade.. that would be nice !

regards
mpw

I'm really glad you decided to give your speakers a second chance, mpw! And this is a great thread, one we can all take tips out of.

I've always felt that working the room is the biggest tweak we could make to our setups, and that speaker positioning, listening seat positioning, and the positioning/addition/removal of the other bits and bobs (furniture, acoustic panels, etc) in the room can make a BIG difference to the way music sounds in our rooms.

It took me a few months (about 2 years back) to get my current equipment and the room locked in properly, but after that I've only needed to make very minor tweaks with the changes/additions in equipment. I started with the Cardas method, then revisited the setup with tips from the Real Traps method, and did the rest by ear.

This is how my room looks like now:





As you can see, the speakers are about 2.5ft away from the wall behind them. I think that the distance to the wall behind the speakers is what primarily decides the image depth -- perhaps even more than the electronics.

I have the speakers about 1.5ft away from the side walls, and they are just under 6ft apart from each other. They are toed-in so the imaginary line perpendicular to the baffle crosses about 3 ft behind my seating position. The tweeters are at ear height, once I lean back on the recliner. I sit about 7.5 ft away from each speaker. I have a bathroom jutting into the room in the back, so on my left, the rear wall is about 4 ft behind me, and on my right, the rear wall is about 7 ft behind me.

The toeing-in makes a big difference to the sharpness of the center image and the stage width. More toe-in = narrower width, but sharper image. The space between the speakers also seems to affect this (without considering toeing-in in the equation).

The current setup, in terms of width of speaker placement, is a good compromise between:
- Usability of the room (my bedroom door is behind the left speaker),
- The gap needed between the speakers and the side-walls (reflections!),
- Distance between the speakers that determines stage width and image sharpness, and
- Toe-in necessary for image sharpness & stage width.

The setup, in terms of distance between the speakers and the wall behind them, is a good compromise between:
- Usability of the room (my bedroom door is behind the left speaker),
- The necessary gap for stage depth,
- The necessary gap needed for optimal bass response.
Here, I've compromised by living with a bit more bass than necessary, so that I will have enough distance between the speakers and my listening chair, and enough distance between my listening chair & the wall behind me, to my left (rear-wall reflections). Moving the speakers into the room more would have reduced the bass, and that would have been more to my taste, but the room simply does not have enough length to allow for this, and all other parameters.

I've got a bit of slat-foam left over with me, so I'll be making an acoustic panel that will hang on this wall behind me, to my left, to reduce rear-wall reflections. I'm also considering making a hanging book/CD shelf on that wall, instead of using the foam.

My seating position was a compromise between:
- Viewing distance to the TV: Dumb reason in terms of music, but well, I watch a lot of movies.
- Bass level/energy at the seating position.
- Midrange "energy" (don't know what else to call it) at seating position.
- Necessary gap between seating and rear wall.

I'll need to redo all this when my new speakers come in. But this time, I'll be starting from a pretty good knowledge of what the room sounds like, so I hope to not have too much trouble setting them up.

 

[mpw]

thanks hydra.. just the kind of response i had hoped for. The thread was started basically for learning what other folks make do with.

Indian homes ( as opposed to western ) come with certain inherent compromises like ;-

sharing the same room for TV and audio
smaller size of room etc..
flooring

I see you have put sound panels in fromnt of the TV screen.. is that quickly removable ?

if you see.. my TV is bang in the center too..

i am hoping some folks with well set rigs put up their pics with floorstanders positioned to get the best imaging width and depth.

I am curious to see the distance from the rear wall and given the limitations above.. ( other than the lucky ones either with grown up kids or with their own dedicated audio room ) weather it really makses sense to get into floorstanders at all..

mpw
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[himadri]

Could you please share the pics and specs (like materials used, dimensions etc) of the DIY bass traps?

here http://www.hifivision.com/av-enhancers-room-acoustics/21275-diy-bass-traps-smallish-rooms.html
cheers

 

[rikhav]

As you can see, the speakers are about 2.5ft away from the wall behind them. I think that the distance to the wall behind the speakers is what primarily decides the image depth -- perhaps even more than the electronics.

up.

Hi anup

Joshua's setup is a good example to prove you wrong

Speakers are what I feel max 1.5 ft away from rear wall. Sound is coming from like 5 to 7 ft away and there is this feel like you are sitting in a concert hall, such is the signature

 

[john_k_antony]

This thread has given me enough motivation to spend $100 on the hardware to run the Room Eq Wizard (REW) .

Has any one done REW and got "surprising" results that helped tune your "room" and speaker placement ?

Thank you once again MPW for starting this wonderful discussion.

Thanks,
John.

 

[manoj.p]

John,

I have used Room Eq Wizard for equalizing my subs. But you would also need an equalizer to store and apply the filters to the signal. I am using Behringer Feedback Destroyer. There is MiniDSP, Behringer DCX as well to use as equalizing devices.

On the Behringer, there is pass-through button. With my subs on, when I switch between pass-through vs processing, I hear big improvement in the bass. The boominess simply goes away and bass is more controlled.

 

[IndianEars]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hydra View Post

As you can see, the speakers are about 2.5ft away from the wall behind them. I think that the distance to the wall behind the speakers is what primarily decides the image depth -- perhaps even more than the electronics.

up.
Hi anup

Joshua's setup is a good example to prove you wrong

Speakers are what I feel max 1.5 ft away from rear wall. Sound is coming from like 5 to 7 ft away and there is this feel like you are sitting in a concert hall, such is the signature

Distance of speakers from Rear wall will change the bass. Closer to the rear wall ... more bass. If placed in a corner ... Even more bass.

Set up both speakers EXACTLY equidistant from the listening position, and get a good centre image. if your Amp has a Mono switchuse it to set up a good centre image.

No switch to stereo and play around with the speaker toe - in for the soundstage.

Greater toe in will give you Very specific imaging but a less wide sound stage. Opposite for toe out.

 

[mpw]

Hi,

Request more pics of your setups please to show us the steps taken to get optimal sound in your room.

Advise is welcome but pictures would bve a great learning.

Thanks
Mpw

 

[john_k_antony]

John,

I have used Room Eq Wizard for equalizing my subs. But you would also need an equalizer to store and apply the filters to the signal. I am using Behringer Feedback Destroyer. There is MiniDSP, Behringer DCX as well to use as equalizing devices.

On the Behringer, there is pass-through button. With my subs on, when I switch between pass-through vs processing, I hear big improvement in the bass. The boominess simply goes away and bass is more controlled.

Thanks Manoj,

Before I invest in an EQ, I will first measure the frequency response and see the problems. I will try to fix the issues with speaker positioning first. If the issues still exist, I might think about going in for an EQ.

-John.

 

[manoj.p]

John, it makes sense. First need to find out the problem before finding a cure.

are you trying to do this for your theater room? Just curious.

 

[arj]

Thanks Manoj,

Before I invest in an EQ, I will first measure the frequency response and see the problems. I will try to fix the issues with speaker positioning first. If the issues still exist, I might think about going in for an EQ.

-John.

my personal view-EQ should be your Last step after optimal placement and room treatment, in the end it always impacts the sound (less the better in the chain)
It may be better to invest in a modelling S/W like CARA (not sure if it is still available) which can model out your room acoustics and once you have set it up optimally and also tried out any room treatment , then you go for EQ

 

[hydra]

Hi anup

Joshua's setup is a good example to prove you wrong

Speakers are what I feel max 1.5 ft away from rear wall. Sound is coming from like 5 to 7 ft away and there is this feel like you are sitting in a concert hall, such is the signature

 

[hydra]

Distance of speakers from Rear wall will change the bass. Closer to the rear wall ... more bass. If placed in a corner ... Even more bass.

Set up both speakers EXACTLY equidistant from the listening position, and get a good centre image. if your Amp has a Mono switchuse it to set up a good centre image.

No switch to stereo and play around with the speaker toe - in for the soundstage.

Greater toe in will give you Very specific imaging but a less wide sound stage. Opposite for toe out.

Thank you, IndianEars. I did notice these things. I've mentioned these in the compromises I had to make in the positioning. But using a mono switch is something I've never done at all! My amp doesn't have one, but maybe JRMC has this option. I'll try this out for sure

My current speakers seem to be less sensitive to the rear wall in terms of bass than typical. I need to put them out quite a bit into the room to reduce the bass well enough to my taste.

I've previously used pink noise to do this, but I now use either spoken content, or "Ballad of a Runaway Horse" to setup the center image.

 

[john_k_antony]

my personal view-EQ should be your Last step after optimal placement and room treatment, in the end it always impacts the sound (less the better in the chain)
It may be better to invest in a modelling S/W like CARA (not sure if it is still available) which can model out your room acoustics and once you have set it up optimally and also tried out any room treatment , then you go for EQ

ARJ,

I have already done room treatment based on basic standards - absorb first and second reflection. Diffusers behind speakers and behind the listening seat. Floor to ceiling corner bass traps. Now I need to get my subs integrated seamless into the setup and also want to see if there are any issues with the current acoustic setup. That's why I am trying REW. I guess REW exercise would be fun. I am reading through various user experience on REW.

Even I would like to keep lesser processing in my chain. But will have to resort to an EQ if everything else fails. And this would be for HT use only. I will keep my stereo setup as simple as possible.

John.