speaker positioning

[Hari Iyer]

I agree. Toe-in of the speakers have a tremendous effect on the imaging. A mild toe in could help to focus a sharp imaging at the listening position, however a more than necessary angle could result in a constricted soundstage. It also helps to bring the sweet spot closer to the speakers if space is a constrain.

I have of late been realising that the first order reflection helps in a wider soundstage. Sometimes I am tempted to keep the two DIY acoustic panels at first points of reflection but within no time I move it to the rear because I feel the spaciousness is compromised though the details improved. In such situations, toe-in can be of great help. It pushes the first point of reflection closer or beyond the listening position helping to minimize the smearing of image caused by the reflections.

If the horizontal off axis performance of the speaker is weak then toe-in would greatly help in tonal balance. On the flip side, if the speakers are on the brighter side, then toe-in could cause high frequency strain at the listening position.

Ideally, one could keep experimenting with the speaker positioning till they achieve the best result - after all, they are the best (and zero cost) tweaks one could apply.

If you have a spike on the FS speaker that can tilt the speaker up and down by 5 to 10 deg then uou can move the sound stage up and down to bring them at dead centre on- Axis. I am now doing this experiment and think its also helpful for proper imaging.

 

[mpw]

thats something equivalent to pitch and yaw in an aircraft...

adjusting the speaker vertical angle might help but will do little about the imaging and depth ( in my opinion )..

only 1 way.. room space..

mpw

 

[Hari Iyer]

hydra,

my room is depicted in post #57 and not #58.

The pic in post no 58 is drool for me

sorry for the confusion..

the point is not 2 ft.. i need 3 feet to get the imaging depth aroing the speakers. Even 2 feet is a compromise..

mpw

mpw

With my new TL FS I will be placing them some 4 feet away from the rear wall and around 1.5 feet from the side wall. In my case as the terminus is down firing the inegration with the room should not be an issue. Will have to check if low freq comb filtering will be required. That can be judged by either precise measurement or may be a rumble like boom bass feeling. If that becomes an issue then only a thick carpet like a doormat or may be foam would help.

 

[hydra]

mpw, I did understand that your room was the one in post #57. I was actually going by the pictures in post #1.

If the rack is lower and you pull the speakers out by 2 feet, you might effectively get 3ft. But I really don't know exactly how your room is so I could be very wrong too!

I felt that the LHS seems easy to manage. But the RHS will need some work. And if you have kids running around, it will be quite difficult to pull the speaker outwards and leave it there.

...

Sidvee, had recommended ( quite some time back ) a kind of wooden partition / screen behind my rear speaker that would also act as an "isolator" for it

My suggestion of a book-shelf (or folding wood partition) to the right, and behind the speaker was intended to have this effect, in terms of protection from traffic. These would also be easily removable if the space needed to be freed up.

 

[Hari Iyer]

would love to have this kind of positioning ( minus the TV )....

i kind of like the distance from the rear walls. I think all speakers need this distance ( say about 2 ft ) from the rear and side walls to work best.

mpw

I think distance from rear wall be important for rear ported sprakrs. Usually the ports are tuned at around 40 Hz and the wave length is around 8 meters. Low freq feflections from rare wall can interfer eithrer constructively or destructively with the speaker. If the distance between rare wall and speaker interfer destructively then u may need to either add bass traps to absorb the reflection or move them clsore to wall to reduce the wave length.I think there is no golden rule as to how much distance from rear wall is reqd, better to expriment which is easider than calculate. Combing of low freq can also happen from floor and ceiling eflections and hence use of carpets and other similar material can bee of help.

 

[denom]

i think at this position i am getting a good response from the room. The speakers are pulled forward about 1.5 meters from the rear wall and also about 1.35 meters from the side wall /curtain.

I can be finicky sometines and that means that though i cant eliminate the TV out of the equation, i will need to find a more aesthetic looking way to cloak it.



The carpet between the speakers could be larger and i suppose will be my purchase.

There is a low light shot also just to give you guys an idea.

I suppose this is the best i can go. Suggestions on small practical workable tweaks welcome.

After shortening the rack width.. i think that space would be better occupied by a floorstander ( The standmounts do not give the impression of being big and therefore one can see a large gap between the speakers and the side wall which was not there when the rack was 73 inch wide )

:lol:

or maybe a smaller speaker that uses the wall to re-inforce itself. The Eposes seem to work well away from the wall and rest assured its not a function of porting. I suppose any speaker would need space around it.

Maybe i will try to back it up a bit and see how it goes. Give it about 12 inches from the rear wall and move my listening seat forward to meet the speakers at about 6 feet.

Ja - and the speakers are toed in just a bit but are not shown as such in the photos.

I need to find a more presentable solution as i do not see myself pulling / pushing speakers for long. I cannot afford to keep them as depicted in the pic as they take up too much of Mumbai real estate.



Compromise.. .. is the meaning of life and though you may discover the route to sonic nirvana.. that route may not be for you.
mpw

Looking empty than before Where have all the cowboys gone??? hyeah:
The game is ON at the moment, play as much as you can, at the cost of your temperament & that of the other 'stakeholders'

The 'new rack' reminds me of the 5-star ad with the 2 dimps getting babuji's pants 'altered' at the tailors shop hyeah::lol:

the other thing on my mind..

there is a need to balance the compromise between speaker dimension ( LBH ) and the rear / side wall dimension.

This means that if i decide to go for a shiny new pair of speakers ( at a later date ) then :-

a. Either go for something with smaller dimension that can work with the rear wall by being positioned closer to it. This implies a small stand mount. That also implies i would miss out on the "scale" of things

b. Else go for a proper floorstander and take it into the room as much as i can ( atleast 3 to 4 feet ) but thats where the hitch lies.. i cannot do that without monopolising the living room and not disturbing other stakeholders.

this is a catch 22 which needs to be resolved and i suppose only i can help myself here..

Sidvee, had recommended ( quite some time back ) a kind of wooden partition / screen behind my rear speaker that would also act as an "isolator" for it

yea - maybe i need to look at creative interior design ( or manipulation ?? )

mpw

First & foremost go for something that will make you happy 'performance' wise rather than 'fit-in' the real estate & cosmetically/dimenionally keep the other 'stakeholders' happy.
I know, i know, catch 22 situation for you, but ultimately if you want happiness & audio nirvana, something(someone) will have to 'give in' to the 'situation'

With my new TL FS I will be placing them some 4 feet away from the rear wall and around 1.5 feet from the side wall. In my case as the terminus is down firing the inegration with the room should not be an issue. Will have to check if low freq comb filtering will be required. That can be judged by either precise measurement or may be a rumble like boom bass feeling. If that becomes an issue then only a thick carpet like a doormat or may be foam would help.

Hari, interesting info on your 'Agni's' Can't wait to witness the 'test fire'
You might want to re-think on the idea of thick carpet/foam under the 'terminus' coz it might 'back-fire' (pun heavily intended)!!!

I think distance from rear wall be important for rear ported sprakrs. Usually the ports are tuned at around 40 Hz and the wave length is around 8 meters. Low freq feflections from rare wall can interfer eithrer constructively or destructively with the speaker. If the distance between rare wall and speaker interfer destructively then u may need to either add bass traps to absorb the reflection or move them clsore to wall to reduce the wave length.I think there is no golden rule as to how much distance from rear wall is reqd, better to expriment which is easider than calculate. Combing of low freq can also happen from floor and ceiling eflections and hence use of carpets and other similar material can bee of help.

You can actully approx compute ur box tuning freq by this method by moving them front and back from the rear wall and checkat what position you gst max bass and then compute tthe wave length and the frea. This will be the lowest frrq thst can be played in your room.

All these theories are good at being just that, practical experience varies with each speaker however similarly designed or with similar design in principal, as seen in my limited experience.

 

[mpw]

The 'new rack' reminds me of the 5-star ad with the 2 dimps getting babuji's pants 'altered' at the tailors shop hyeah::lol:
.

==================================

good one denom...:clapping::lol:

what to do ? money is at a premium and didnt want to splurge on a new rack when i was really not quite sure of what it would turn out to be like.

Added to the situation was the fact that i knew i had made a bummer by having the rack 73 inch wide.. atleast now at 46 inches.. the speakers seem to breathe better.

BTW, you seem to be one of the more sensible yaaaar's around..

forgive the missing alphabet/s .. if any..

mpw

 

[denom]

:lol: be careful lest this be interpreted as having 'commercial' interests :lol:

Rack done, now its time to gaze at some other speakers & then worry about their integration once they arrive @ the place of worship

 

[X man]

In places like Mumbai, its hard to get luxury of leaving 1.5feet from rear wall and side wall.. How could we deal with this.

 

[gobble]

In places like Mumbai, its hard to get luxury of leaving 1.5feet from rear wall and side wall.. How could we deal with this.

Don't buy speakers that require space behind them. Simple.

--G0bble

 

[Hari Iyer]

For the technically minded - interesting article on comb filtering, Acoustical Interference, & Power Response in Loudspeakers. Can be used for proper speaker placement.

Comb Filtering, Acoustical Interference, & Power Response in Loudspeakers | Audioholics

 

[Hari Iyer]

Some more insights on speaker interaction with room technically speaking. After reading this you might want to use a graphic equalizer or go for a custom speaker design looking into room issues with any speaker.

Identifying Legitimately High Fidelity Loudspeakers: Loudspeaker to Room Interface | Audioholics

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

After reading this you might want to use...

Headphones!


But seriously... Links to Audioholics, which is a great site for making stuff as understandable is it can be. Thanks for both links.

 

[mpw]

Don't buy speakers that require space behind them. Simple.

--G0bble

====================================================

gobble,'


the problem is ther e are very few of the kind that can ;-

a. do with very minimal space behind them.. say 12 inches
b. be sensitive enough to run with a nice 50W integrated
c. at the same time not skimp on the sound while being sensitive.
d. All this at a budget of say $2500
e. Play good transparent all round music ( minus heavy metal and trance ). I need the lower octave presence as i sometimes do small orchestra.

Indeed - your post is quite simple and i appreciate it in the sense that sometimes we muddle the mind so much that we stop thinking of simple solutions.

Do put out some candidates that will suit the above.

rgds
mpw

 

[ghatgepatil]

You are virtually zeroing down to a Guru 'Junior'.

 

[gobble]

====================================================

gobble,'


the problem is ther e are very few of the kind that can ;-

a. do with very minimal space behind them.. say 12 inches
b. be sensitive enough to run with a nice 50W integrated
c. at the same time not skimp on the sound while being sensitive.
d. All this at a budget of say $2500
e. Play good transparent all round music ( minus heavy metal and trance ). I need the lower octave presence as i sometimes do small orchestra.

Indeed - your post is quite simple and i appreciate it in the sense that sometimes we muddle the mind so much that we stop thinking of simple solutions.

Do put out some candidates that will suit the above.

rgds
mpw

hi MPW
Yes I understand. For a first timer or newcomer or a non D.I.Y'er (not south Indian ) it is not practically the best advice because the options are limited. With judicious selection of HT satellites and an audiophile sub (another brand) to pair with maybe. The Lithos Noa-1 is a good example of a budget system package that can really sound good for pure audio. Only the single sub's location is a bit audible (go 2.2 maybe?). A more seasoned audiophile can also buy the newer range of 3" drivers for a DIY effort to pair with an audiophile sub - one that doesn't require a complex TL design but a simple sealed enclosure perhaps. One has to make effort with the realization and accounting for the cost of real estate space saved. Calculate the price per square foot of your apartment in Mumbai, the space taken by your speaker placement ( or the extra recurring cost of house rent for a larger house) and consider the cost saved by some DIY effort. Some people are surely paying an extra 3000 p.m room rent for that larger house with a larger living room - imagine if this recurring annual cost is put into a DIY audio gear effort instead and you can move into a smaller house?

--G0bble

 

[anirbandd]

Hello fellow FMs. First and foremost, thanks to all of you for sharing your views on speaker placement. We bought the Sonodyne Sonus combo this month.

Earlier the bass was very over bearing and had a pronounced ringing effect. The vocals sounded a bit subdued and some of the guitar riffs and distortion solos were subdued.

After looking though your views i rearranged the room a little bit and readjusted the floor standers. I pulled out the FS from the wall. Refer to the pics attached. And moved a wardrobe to another part of the room.

Now the ringing and over hanging bass is almost inaudible. And the mids are beautiful and distinct.

All thanks to you guys.

Sorry if the second pic is confusing. I'll upload a new one tomorrow.


Keep up the good work guys!!

 

[arj]

..
All thanks to you guys.

..

Keep up the good work guys!!

A lot of the credit is to you since you actually tried it out ! Not joking. there are lots of such tips out there but very few who take the effort to try it out :clapping:
Congrats !!

 

[anirbandd]

A lot of the credit is to you since you actually tried it out ! Not joking. there are lots of such tips out there but very few who take the effort to try it out :clapping:
Congrats !!

Haha!! Thanks... We are very particular about what we listen to. Only that we didn't know the exact cause and the correction procedure.

 

[anirbandd]

The next tweak that I've planned with my dad are placing sound traps/absorbers behind the speakers. But the plan is now on hold. Mom is angry coz i moved the wardrobe.

Anyway, i will be making it at home (DIYist till death!!). And I'll rely on your suggestions for the materials and design.