Spec Obfuscation (Even by reputed companies) - A Real Worry?

Audiolab 7000N Play Network Streamer with DAC
raghupb

raghupb

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Fellow FMs,

Starting this thread to discuss "questionable" practice of AV OEMs putting whatever they feel like in product specifications.
The trigger for this discussion are a few comments made by FM @Audi on a couple of other conversations.
See here onward --> https://www.hifivision.com/threads/soundstage-in-pure-direct-not-so-good.79399/post-884612
And here onward --> https://www.hifivision.com/threads/help-in-choosing-a-5-1-setup.79393/post-884614
Do not want to dilute the original threads, so let's discuss here.

The comments made by the owner of a Sony 9200W 5.1 HTiB are interesting (to say the least).
Nothing wrong in FM @Audi raving about the above system, I'm completely with him/her.
If a member finds a perfect solution for their home in a given budget, with simplicity/aesthetics, yada, yada, great.
What I don't agree with is a member dissing other brands or solutions.
And to kind of imply that the rest of us are being fooled into spending big monies, well ... is definitely avoidable.

Coming to the larger issue; specs published by OEMs.
Case in point Sony BDV-N9200W. Now we all know Sony is a reputable brand known for its many innovations.
Good "looking" system, I'll admit.

This HTiB model is a 2 box system with 6 speakers.
Main unit hosts the BD/DVD spinner, AV guts and powers FL/FR/C/SW-passive
Surround unit powers SL/SR speakers.

On the landing page they actually claim 1200W output!! Wow.
Let's deep dive into the published spec
Page 76:
Amplifier Section (Main Unit)
POWER OUTPUT (rated)
Front L/Front R: 125 W + 125 W (at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1% THD)
POWER OUTPUT (reference)
Front L/Front R: 200 W (per channel at 6 ohms, 1 kHz)
Center: 200 W (at 6 ohms, 1 kHz)
Subwoofer: 200 W (at 6 ohms, 80 Hz)

Page 78:
Surround amplifier (TA-SA500WR) for BDV-N9200W/BDV-N7200W
POWER OUTPUT (reference)
Surround L/Surround R: 200 W (per channel at 6 ohms, 1 kHz)

Main unit
Power consumption
On: 95 W (HBD-N9200W/HBD-N7200W/HBD-N5200W)

Surround amplifier (TA-SA500WR) for BDV-N9200W/BDV-N7200W
Power consumption
On: 55 W (TA-SA500WR)

Observation 1:
200Wpc on FL/FR/C/SW (adds up to 800W)
Question 1:
What is the "reference"?

Observation 2:
200Wpc on SL/SR (adds up to 400W)
Question 2:
What is the "reference"?

Observation 3:
Max power consumption on Main unit is 95W and on Surround unit is 45W, adding up to 150W
Question 3:
In what universe can a couple of boxes drawing a max of 150W from the wall output 1200W total?

If I put on my Electrical Engineer hat and do reverse math, here is what I get:
- Main unit has a PS, disc spinner, AV decoder, and amp circuits (take away 15W conservatively)
- Main unit needs to power 4 speakers; so out of 80W that's theoretically available, each speaker can get 20W on paper
- Surround unit has a PS and amp circuits (take away 5W conservatively)
- Surround unit needs to power 2 speakers; so out of the 40W that's theoretically available, each speaker can get 20W on paper
- 20x6 = 120W is the best case; in reality it will be more like 10W per speaker with heavy distortion and clipping

The million dollar question/s:
How can 1200W (claimed), 120W (theoretical) and 60-70W (actual) be correlated?

Isn't this a disservice to a consumer?
Your thoughts ....

Cheers,
Raghu
 
Well we have all heard and seen it before.

Remember those PMPO days in the late 90's and early years of current millenia. Even then Sony was onenof the biggest culprit of advertising with overspecs.

People like us are not the target customers for these companies. Couple of years ago I too came across a FM who thought a 3lac worth of audio equipment doesn't sound better than 30k equipment.

Just ignore and keep walking on the path you have chosen.
 
Normal Consumers (who just believe Higher the Watts, better the Sound) has been falling for this BS Marketing for decades. Consumers don't even know that the so called OEMs claiming 2500 PMPO is not practically possible for that Product.
 
raghupb said:
Fellow FMs,

Starting this thread to discuss "questionable" practice of AV OEMs putting whatever they feel like in product specifications.
The trigger for this discussion are a few comments made by FM @Audi on a couple of other conversations.
See here onward --> https://www.hifivision.com/threads/soundstage-in-pure-direct-not-so-good.79399/post-884612
And here onward --> https://www.hifivision.com/threads/help-in-choosing-a-5-1-setup.79393/post-884614
Do not want to dilute the original threads, so let's discuss here.

The comments made by the owner of a Sony 9200W 5.1 HTiB are interesting (to say the least).
Nothing wrong in FM @Audi raving about the above system, I'm completely with him/her.
If a member finds a perfect solution for their home in a given budget, with simplicity/aesthetics, yada, yada, great.
What I don't agree with is a member dissing other brands or solutions.
And to kind of imply that the rest of us are being fooled into spending big monies, well ... is definitely avoidable.

Coming to the larger issue; specs published by OEMs.
Case in point Sony BDV-N9200W. Now we all know Sony is a reputable brand known for its many innovations.
Good "looking" system, I'll admit.

This HTiB model is a 2 box system with 6 speakers.
Main unit hosts the BD/DVD spinner, AV guts and powers FL/FR/C/SW-passive
Surround unit powers SL/SR speakers.

On the landing page they actually claim 1200W output!! Wow.
Let's deep dive into the published spec
Page 76:
Amplifier Section (Main Unit)
POWER OUTPUT (rated)
Front L/Front R: 125 W + 125 W (at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1% THD)
POWER OUTPUT (reference)
Front L/Front R: 200 W (per channel at 6 ohms, 1 kHz)
Center: 200 W (at 6 ohms, 1 kHz)
Subwoofer: 200 W (at 6 ohms, 80 Hz)

Page 78:
Surround amplifier (TA-SA500WR) for BDV-N9200W/BDV-N7200W
POWER OUTPUT (reference)
Surround L/Surround R: 200 W (per channel at 6 ohms, 1 kHz)

Main unit
Power consumption
On: 95 W (HBD-N9200W/HBD-N7200W/HBD-N5200W)

Surround amplifier (TA-SA500WR) for BDV-N9200W/BDV-N7200W
Power consumption
On: 55 W (TA-SA500WR)

Observation 1:
200Wpc on FL/FR/C/SW (adds up to 800W)
Question 1:
What is the "reference"?

Observation 2:
200Wpc on SL/SR (adds up to 400W)
Question 2:
What is the "reference"?

Observation 3:
Max power consumption on Main unit is 95W and on Surround unit is 45W, adding up to 150W
Question 3:
In what universe can a couple of boxes drawing a max of 150W from the wall output 1200W total?

If I put on my Electrical Engineer hat and do reverse math, here is what I get:
- Main unit has a PS, disc spinner, AV decoder, and amp circuits (take away 15W conservatively)
- Main unit needs to power 4 speakers; so out of 80W that's theoretically available, each speaker can get 20W on paper
- Surround unit has a PS and amp circuits (take away 5W conservatively)
- Surround unit needs to power 2 speakers; so out of the 40W that's theoretically available, each speaker can get 20W on paper
- 20x6 = 120W is the best case; in reality it will be more like 10W per speaker with heavy distortion and clipping

The million dollar question/s:
How can 1200W (claimed), 120W (theoretical) and 60-70W (actual) be correlated?

Isn't this a disservice to a consumer?
Your thoughts ....

Cheers,
Raghu
Click to expand...
The only output from Sony speakers are distortion and from sub, muddy bass and air :D
 
In the eighties & nineties, not only Sony but many other popular brands would put up PMPO as their output ratings for marketing purpose. Even today, some of them won't clearly mention that the power rating is at how many Ohms, how many channels driven & at how much distortion. Sometimes the power ratings at 1% distortion are given which is unacceptable. Power is not the only indicator besides being clean as well.
In the mid level systems find Nad to be honest about their ratings.
 
Many consumers fall for these false and misleading claims.
And some of course come on forums and justify the impossible.

Sometimes I help out friends and family when they are in the market for AV gear.
Have them come home to experience a real world setting as compared to a mall-floor or dealer demo room.
Comments and queries of varying innocence and sometimes audacity needs to be entertained.
- Why so many boxes?
- Why only 3 speakers?
- Why different companies?
- Why no ceiling speakers?
- Why did you spend so much on a music system?

Many of these questions are really difficult to answer in a short period of time.
Cheers,
Raghu
 
Like others have pointed out, these manufacturers target normal customers who look for sound, particularly more sound. And these PMPO ratings can easily impress them. And Sony being one of the well established brands in this business, IMO can easily convince customers to choose their product without these ratings. They can publish the original specs.
This gets to the point that Sony, though well known, competing against who, so they needed high watt ratings?
 
We can categorise consumers into the following sections for any particular product:
1. The ones who buy because they liked what they heard and didn't care about numbers (subjective)
2. The ones who buy because they were impressed by the measured numbers like SINAD, SNR, THD and so on... (objective, like in ASR forum)
3. The ones who buy because of the sticker showing a million watts of output (this number isn't backed by anything, and craves for newbies to buy it)

With that said, it is safe to say that for categories 1. and 2., there is some level of engineering going into the product to either make them sound good, or measure good, and sometimes both. The 3rd category solely relies on folks who want SPL on the highs and lows irrespective of the other nuances of music. In this case, both consumer and company are happy. No complains :)
 
ktks1 said:
We can categorise consumers into the following sections for any particular product:
1. The ones who buy because they liked what they heard and didn't care about numbers (subjective)
2. The ones who buy because they were impressed by the measured numbers like SINAD, SNR, THD and so on... (objective, like in ASR forum)
3. The ones who buy because of the sticker showing a million watts of output (this number isn't backed by anything, and craves for newbies to buy it)

With that said, it is safe to say that for categories 1. and 2., there is some level of engineering going into the product to either make them sound good, or measure good, and sometimes both. The 3rd category solely relies on folks who want SPL on the highs and lows irrespective of the other nuances of music. In this case, both consumer and company are happy. No complains :)
Click to expand...
This!
 
An average Joe looking for a home theatre will not get into these details. The manufacturers know it and are exploiting it. For a common man walking into a showroom, higher the figure, higher the bragging rights. The manufacturers know this weakness.
But whether this is ethical or not is a question they have to ask themselves. Or one fine day, they will be asked the same question in a consumer court for misleading advertisement.
As far as some comments highlighted by @raghupb, we need some relief in all forums. Some things on which we can have a chuckle! Let those be. Had a good time going through those posts!
 
The higher 200w power number is most probably for single speaker driver. It is at 6ohm and 1khz. What is unclear is at what distortion levels and for how much time (probably few seconds). This is how even avr were rated after Atmos was introduced and few even now still being rated similarly. This value, as all have already stated is useless and is misleading.
What we should be looking at is power rating at 8ohm and full band frequency range and at lowest distortion for atleast 2 channel driven simultaneously.

Cheers
Siju
 
Car/vehicle makers can at best fudge numbers to a small extant.
Like 17kmpl under ideal conditions when reality is 10kmpl.

In audio (at least some segments) 60-70W to 1200W is like order magnitude fudge.
This is worrisome.

Imagine a car company says 150kmpl when reality is 10kmpl.
They'll end up in court.

Cheers,
Raghu
 
raghupb said:
Car/vehicle makers can at best fudge numbers to a small extant.
Like 17kmpl under ideal conditions when reality is 10kmpl.

In audio (at least some segments) 60-70W to 1200W is like order magnitude fudge.
This is worrisome.

Imagine a car company says 150kmpl when reality is 10kmpl.
They'll end up in court.

Cheers,
Raghu
Click to expand...

Hey, not really when you consider that amp power goes up exponential to the volume of sound (which is the output desired). So the fudging on the output is of same order.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
SachinChavan said:
Hey, not really when you consider that amp power goes up exponential to the volume of sound (which is the output desired). So the fudging on the output is of same order.
Click to expand...

We know that to perceive Twice the sound of an audio product working on 10 Watts, we need to have a product working on 100 Watts and for twice the sound of 100 Watts we need 1000 Watts. But common people don't understand this and they think, 100 Watts device can sound 10 Times the sound of 10 Watts device.
 
T2ONhmXl4aXXXXXXXX_!!37548114.jpg

Found a picture of my beloved Sony 3 cd changer, 4 speaker 1500 watt PMPO system that had given me years of listening pleasure. To be fair, I think the had also mentioned the power rating on the front as 85 + 85 watts. It also had a mike in for people who were under the illusion that they could sing !!! See, I can be a sony fan boy too :)
 
My Sony from 1991 - I still have the speakers &amp(though amp needs repair). Value for money - no spec obfuscation if you know where to look. Cost me about 50k INR then. I still swear by the audio quality. Made in Japan - but not ideal for Indian (dusty) condition. Another fanboy ;) 2009-01-31-22-32-42.jpg
 
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