sud98
Well-Known Member
In the detailed specs it does mention its at 8 ohm and THD <=0.005%
Spec Obfuscation (Even by reputed companies) - A Real Worry?
- Thread starter raghupb
- Start date
In the detailed specs it does mention its at 8 ohm and THD <=0.005%
blackscorpio
Active Member
DVA 850 MONO BLOCK HYBRID AMPLIFIER
"....... the DVA 850 features over 850 Watts of super pure audio reproduction ........."
how about that for a spec, go figure.
"....... the DVA 850 features over 850 Watts of super pure audio reproduction ........."
how about that for a spec, go figure.
VRavichandar
Well-Known Member
I totally agree with @raghupb that if manufacturers provide upfront details to address the needs of all categories below it would really be great.
At least today much of the information is available on the internet - specialist forums, review sites etc. I can not explain the pain I used to face to even learn about specs - living ~200km away from civilization!
3 broad categories of AV equipment buyers
1. biggest baddest stuff, - probably the majority as most mass-market product ads pander to this category
2. middle of the road - HQ and bang for buck - who will look a bit deeper than cat1 but not as deep as cat 3?.
3. the purists - tiny population who will anyway pour over the fine print?
Will the manufacturer spend big bucks on ad real estate to address the needs of Category 3 or even category 2? (unless it is in a website/mag dedicated for such users). I find that even their websites (especially their Indian ones) lack in-depth information and many models are India specific and some of their models are internet specific to India.
If some manufacturer intentionally obfuscates even when asked for details - just shy away from their products.
At least today much of the information is available on the internet - specialist forums, review sites etc. I can not explain the pain I used to face to even learn about specs - living ~200km away from civilization!
3 broad categories of AV equipment buyers
1. biggest baddest stuff, - probably the majority as most mass-market product ads pander to this category
2. middle of the road - HQ and bang for buck - who will look a bit deeper than cat1 but not as deep as cat 3?.
3. the purists - tiny population who will anyway pour over the fine print?
Will the manufacturer spend big bucks on ad real estate to address the needs of Category 3 or even category 2? (unless it is in a website/mag dedicated for such users). I find that even their websites (especially their Indian ones) lack in-depth information and many models are India specific and some of their models are internet specific to India.
If some manufacturer intentionally obfuscates even when asked for details - just shy away from their products.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
A products head in a large electronics brand that serves a wide range of customers typically faces a dilemma. Their high end audio demographic understands the "real data " well and the typical 50 watts RMS per channel information works from a marketing context. But what about their mainstream customer demographic ? All other brands publish the 1khz sinewave burst peak power info. That is what works for that demographic. So all brands does the same. Everyone is happy. It has been like this for so many years. Unless there is an industry wide agreement and everyone changes, it is going to be tough, no ? If only one brands changes, they will face severe sales issues.
Example:
Sony ES series - Proper data
Sony boombox - 1 khz sinewave burst peak power data
Anyways, the group who buy these "Pmpo " 1000 watt gear does not really care. So how important will this be as a strategy for change for the industry ?
Example:
Sony ES series - Proper data
Sony boombox - 1 khz sinewave burst peak power data
Anyways, the group who buy these "Pmpo " 1000 watt gear does not really care. So how important will this be as a strategy for change for the industry ?
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Good points., although I will go further and say even if specs were given how much would it help ? To explain based on your classification
1. People dont care about the real specs and will buy what looks good ,from a known brand and in their budget with all the hyped up terminology.
2. Most systems in this range are pretty wide range ie they work with any matching system..almost a "jack of most trades" . mostly have a synergy with every other component which can be determined by simple things like power ratings and sensitivity. also reviewed universally and all give it good to decent ratings
1 and 2 are the majority of people who buy hifi and the number of people on this forum may only be a very small subset of that market.
3. Mostly bought after a lot of research, reading between the lines in reviews, reviews from known people or people whom you trust. and for the lucky few a long audition or even home audition. Even here specs may not matter much as specs may not be able to measure some of those parameters as they are so system/room synergy dependent.. eg the lower harmonics of Jagjit Singh, Amitabh Bacchan or Leonard Cohens voice and how it hits you...I suspect most of us are somewhere in this path.
The point of the above is that even if specs were published, only a very few would actually put it to good use and even then the actual sound cannot be brought down to numbers....
Perhaps this how Bose has been selling so successfully over decades without any specs and only Demos !
For the benefit of the members (and myself), could you please explain a bit further on why a 20W amp plays louder than a 50 w amp at a lower setting. I was under the impression that if two amps were played within their range then they should sound more or less the same. In fact I would have thought that the 50 watter would have more headroom and thus play demanding passages better.
Good question. I am sure there could be many reasons and lots of knowledgeable folks can chime in.
One reason could be that the 20W is a very conservative rating while peak can be 40W while the 50W is over-reported. In the end its the current flowing through the speaker which generates sound. If the 50W amp is not able to supply that current fast enough, and the 20W can , it will sound more powerful ( i guess the slew rate might define that).
BTW the difference between a 25W and 50W at the same position and speaker is 3dB..so also depends on how loud you listen to music. My example was with a 50W NAD many years ago which was replaced by a 25 Watt sugden which fell to 15W at 4 ohms which sounded so much more authoritative.
robin3989
Active Member
It's possible and through subjective listening i have seen the difference is only minimal. I have a Musical Fidelity A1 20wpc amp and an SMSL Class D amp which is rated 160wpc. You wouldn't believe that A1 easily matches the loudness of SMSL, provided the same volume levels are set in the pots. I can't technically speak, but in my experience the speakers, the room and other components remained the same. I guess A1 might suffer powering a low impedance, low sensitive speaker, but definitely the SMSL doesn't.
The MFA1 is a gem of an amp. The challenge with the older and smaller Pure class A amps has been that their power ratings fall with lower impedance to as low as 10 W at 4 ohms and burn out below it..but as long as you give them a benign speaker they will really sing.
OTOH the old krells/Mark levinsons / Pass Labs Class et al Class A amps used to double with reduction in the same..hence 20W at 8, 40 at 4, 80 at 2 and 160 at 1..yes they drove 1 ohm speakers as well like apogees .. no wonder they were suitcases which radiated heat !
I started this thread on spec obfuscation, but now my main amp is one that I have no clue about.
It is one of them old AKSA kit amps, built by one of our FMs that passed hands and eventually landed in my home.
In short it sings like a charm. So much for specs
Cheers,
Raghu
It is one of them old AKSA kit amps, built by one of our FMs that passed hands and eventually landed in my home.
In short it sings like a charm. So much for specs
Cheers,
Raghu
This stack is the most beautiful thing I have seen in years!!My Sony from 1991 - I still have the speakers &(though amp needs repair). Value for money - no spec obfuscation if you know where to look. Cost me about 50k INR then. I still swear by the audio quality. Made in Japan - but not ideal for Indian (dusty) condition. Another fanboy
One of my first great hi fi experiences was through a similar sony system (cant remember the model number though my uncle still has it till this date) and the way it reproduced "in the end" by linkin park was incredible to my ears. Somehow, I still find myself playing that track whenever i try out new gear for the first time and it has become a reference track of sorts. Unfortunately, all i have to go by is my memory of how it sounded through that system so I always come back disappointed and am yet to achieve the surreal performance (i thought i heard) from the Sonys.View attachment 47516
Found a picture of my beloved Sony 3 cd changer, 4 speaker 1500 watt PMPO system that had given me years of listening pleasure. To be fair, I think the had also mentioned the power rating on the front as 85 + 85 watts. It also had a mike in for people who were under the illusion that they could sing !!! See, I can be a sony fan boy too
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