Sub-woofer on ceiling / In-Ceiling Subwoofer

[Dr.Lakshay]

Just an observation - after moving the subs to ceiling, feel the bass from the front L & R sound more prominent than before..

Great going sir. Hope you have made some baseline listening by keeping the subs on floor and then compare it with the response you get after hanging them. It will be interesting to get your observations in the changes.

 

[elangoas]

Great going sir. Hope you have made some baseline listening by keeping the subs on floor and then compare it with the response you get after hanging them. It will be interesting to get your observations in the changes.

Thank You.. Yes.. I had the subs on the floor for 2 days, before i mounted them on ceiling..But i don't have response measured on the floor..

But, i have the response of my dual Taga subs when i placed them in the front room corners.. though not ideal comparison, can use that to see how much response has changed at my listening position..

Front L/R sounds a lot cleaner than before..

 

[elangoas]

After adding the subs, Audyssey calibration wasn't done.. I manually entered the subs distance from the listening position by approximation..

Here is the measurement of subs on ceiling.. I measured it on my 3- seater sofa, approx 5feet wide.. Took 5 measurements, evenly spaced.. Listening Position (LP 1 - 5).. My listening position is against the back wall..One of my listening position is in the width null..

Surprising & happy to see the response is almost identical across any position in my 3 seater sofa...

Below are the room modes for my room dimension of 14 (W) x 11 (L) x 9.7 (H) feet..

Having mounted the subs at 1/4th room width & 1/2 room length, think it has cancelled the width modes of 40hz, 81Hz and also length mode of 51Hz..

The peak at 60Hz, i think is due to height mode not being cancelled.. No idea where the dip after 70Hz came from.. There is no null at 70Hz in the room mode chart..

At present the driver is 2 feet from the ceiling.. Would dropping the subwoofer height by a 1 ~ 2 feet from ceiling help minimise the peak at 60Hz and improve the dip after 70Hz at the same time?.. Plz help..

 

[edjamesx]

Hi elangoas,

It's Interesting subject .. mounting the sub woofer in ceiling .

I think there are dedicated in cieling subwoofer sold by kilpsch...may be by other brands as well...

https://www.klipsch.com/products/rw-5101-c-in-ceiling-subwoofer

Whats the reason to go with In cieling subwoofer?. To save floor space ?
In my opinion it may sound good for music (paired with in cieling Speakers) , but for movies i am not sure whether it sound good.

How is the sound in your setup ? . Is it better than keeping in Floor?

 

[Ravindra Desai]

Bass isn't as smooth to look at as it is to hear, no?
It also plays the devils advocate to make you do all kind of things other than listening and the possibilities are endless from practical approaches to logic to superstition!
So be aware and good luck!!

Regards,

Ravindra.

 

[elangoas]

It's Interesting subject .. mounting the sub woofer in ceiling .

Having read some articles / posts on various forums, i was of the understanding that elevating the subs above ear level will provide a better feel of the bass, because your ears will be closer to the drivers than to the room surfaces..

Whats the reason to go with In cieling subwoofer?. To save floor space ?

There are some ideal locations for dual subs in a rectangular room to get the smoothest / flattest bass in the room..I had my Taga active subs on the floor (room corners), but couldn't position them in ideal room locations as it is a living room.. So thought of elevating it with DIY subs & mounting to ceiling where i can position them at ideal locations.. Also had a stereo power amplifier unused.. So kind of experimentation..

I think there are dedicated in cieling subwoofer sold by kilpsch...may be by other brands as well...

https://www.klipsch.com/products/rw-5101-c-in-ceiling-subwoofer

I don't have false ceiling to mount the brands inceiling subwoofer.. DIY was easy, can customise to your needs, sealed was an other way to experience it..

In my opinion it may sound good for music (paired with in cieling Speakers) , but for movies i am not sure whether it sound good.

Ok.. IMO, if a smoother bass response can make a good music listening session, then it should also make great movie experience..

How is the sound in your setup ? . Is it better than keeping in Floor?

Subs on ceiling feels much better to me.. It is like raining bass.. May be it is a new experience/feel, am liking it a lot already..

Bass isn't as smooth to look at as it is to hear, no?

Ha ha.. Yes.. True.. good one.. After elevating the subs, i feel the bass from front L & R sound a lot prominent.. So, some benefit..

It also plays the devils advocate to make you do all kind of things other than listening.
So be aware and good luck!!

Thank you.. Honestly, when i had the subs (different ones) on the floor, i took the same 5 measurements in my sofa and they were never like this.. Almost identical response in all seats.. Just thinking on how to minimise the peaks & dips..

 

[elangoas]

How is the sound in your setup ? . Is it better than keeping in Floor?

Was able to get the measurements of subs at the same listening position LP 1 - 5 in my room..

Here is a comparison of subwoofers response on the floor Vs ceiling, same location in the room (At 1/4 room width and 1/2 way length).. The difference is only the height..

On the Floor - Dual Taga Harmony Platinum SW 10v.2..

On the ceiling - (Dual DIY sealed subs)

The subs on the floor, have variance in peaks & dips, where the subs in mid-air doesn't have that much variance.. Both the cases listening position is the same (against back wall), room, probably Mic height might be lil bit difference..

 

[Ravindra Desai]

Was able to get the measurements of subs at the same listening position LP 1 - 5 in my room..

Here is a comparison of subwoofers response on the floor Vs ceiling, same location in the room (At 1/4 room width and 1/2 way length).. The difference is only the height..

On the Floor - Dual Taga Harmony Platinum SW 10v.2..

On the ceiling - (Dual DIY sealed subs)

The subs on the floor, have variance in peaks & dips, where the subs in mid-air doesn't have that much variance.. Both the cases listening position is the same (against back wall), room, probably Mic height might be lil bit difference..

I agree.
Fantastic!!
I love the inference you have drawn with data to support you.
Way to go!

Keep it up!!

Regards,

Ravindra.

 

[elangoas]

Added some chain links to ceiling hooks & dropped the subwoofer height..

Subwoofer driver is now 44 inches from ceiling.. Earlier it was 24 inches from ceiling..

Here is a measurement after dropping the sub by 20 inches from its earlier position in the ceiling..

Posting the earlier measurement when it was close to ceiling below..

Also a comparison of original measurement vs dropping the subwoofer height at the same listening position (LP2), which is also the width null..

Increase in SPL from 20Hz-50Hz by 5 dB.. The dip at 55hz remains unchanged.. Peak at 60Hz has dropped by 7dB, though not reduced.. Big improvement between 65 - 80 hz.. (20dB dip has gone)..

I think if i keep the sub at midway between ceiling & floor, it should help cancel the height mode.. But that position for the sub isn't possible.. I have dropped the subwoofer height maximum in the room..

Not sure of what is causing the dip at 55Hz & 65Hz?.. Should i also consider (other than axial) room modes below 80/100 Hz?..

 

[elangoas]

Was reading thru the frequency wavelength chart - https://www.jdbsound.com/art/frequency wave length chart 2013.pdf

The full wavelength of the frequency that is causing the dip at 55Hz is 20.46 feet according to the chart, which i think is associated with room length..

Twice the length of the room (2 x 11 feet) = 22 feet.. I have room opening besides my listening position.. Would this be the reason for the dip?..

Right opposite to my listening position is the projector screen which is mounted on a 6 feet wide window of the 14 feet wide dimension.. I kept all the doors & windows open during all measurements.. If i close the windows, would this dip minimise?..

Also, the full wavelength of the frequency that is causing the dip at 65Hz is 17.31 feet, which must be associated (guessing) with room height..

Twice the height of the room (2 x 9.7 feet) = 19.4 feet.. Again, there are openings to the left (main door) & right side (To kitchen) of listening position..

Would this be one of the reasons for causing the dip?..

 

[elangoas]

Did few silly things today.. All the above measurements posted so far on this thread were with all doors & windows open in my living room..

Here is my room layout..

I tried measuring the response at one single listening postion LP1 and tried closing window & doors one by one.. Found some thing interesting..

LP1 is extreme left on the 3 seater sofa..

-> The red line in the graph - is when all the window & doors were open in the room..
-> The green line in the graph - is when i first closed window, slight improvement in response.. 17Hz moved up in the response..
-> The blue line in the graph - is when the window was closed and main door closed.. There was a very small dip at 45Hz.. Because the door thickness and its wooden frame is not as think as wall surrounding it, has caused this dip i guess..
-> The magenta line in the graph - is when window closed + main door closed + (1st) bedroom door closed.. There seems to be some improvement below 20Hz and between 20Hz - 50Hz.. It is almost getting smooth..

After looking at the small dip created at 45Hz due to main door closure, am thinking if the 55Hz and 65Hz dip is due to the large opening (9.7 x 4 feet) to kitchen to the extreme right side of the listening position..

Also planning to mount the sub1 back to its original height position, where it would further smoothen the response between 20 - 50 and probably shift the peak at 20Hz to below 20Hz.. This may also increase the peak at 60Hz slightly.. But just my guess.. sub1 & sub2 will be at different height in the room.. Will try a measurement and check for difference..

 

[SAMUEL]

Great effort . The low frequency Db gain looks awesome compared to the floor. Have you tried setting the crossover for the main LCR speakers below 60Hz, so that you can totally avoid the 60-70 Hz Db boost measured in the chart.
Regards,
Sam

 

[elangoas]

Great effort . The low frequency Db gain looks awesome compared to the floor.

Thank You.. If you are referring to the response in this post - https://www.hifivision.com/threads/...in-ceiling-subwoofer.68753/page-3#post-788407, then they are response of 2 different subs, in same room location, but different heights..

Have you tried setting the crossover for the main LCR speakers below 60Hz, so that you can totally avoid the 60-70 Hz Db boost measured in the chart.
Regards,
Sam

Nope.. If i crossover the subs at 50Hz, then the height mode peak will be passed on to the main L/R speakers..

At present using 80 Hz crossover to the mains.. I wanted to try reposition the subs with different height as much as possible and try reduce the peak at 60hz and then use a 70/80 Hz to the mains..

 

[manoj.p]

Great results.
You should try crossing over to mains at 60 hz. It will get rid of the height mode, esp if your speakers are at ear height.
However, that may bring the width and length mode into picture. But try that, measure and see which one looks + sounds better/cleaner.

 

[elangoas]

Great results.
You should try crossing over to mains at 60 hz. It will get rid of the height mode, esp if your speakers are at ear height.

However, that may bring the width and length mode into picture. But try that, measure and see which one looks + sounds better/cleaner.

Thank You.. Sure.. Will try the combinations..

 

[elangoas]

Here is a measurement of subs in different heights from ceiling.. subs at same height from ceiling seems to be better with overall response till 80hz..

 

[elangoas]

Having tried the subs suspended from ceiling, and the response it offers if mounted at ideal locations, i would like to try 4 subs (2 drivers in each location & opposing each other) with 18mm plywood as false ceiling + use the false ceiling as a sealed enclosure for subs + to hold height speakers.. I was anyways planning to get false ceiling done..

Would i have a remote chance of improving the dip if i were to use 4 subs (2 drivers in each location & opposing each other)? like below image.. My room also would look tidy with subs hidden inside false ceiling.. Should i (or) shouldn't i do it?..

 

[Ravindra Desai]

Hello,

Stop! Take a step back.
Understand what your target is. It is the key!
Understand it so well to yourself that if you explain it to your pet, even it should nod in approval of understanding.

1. With the woofer positions as shown, should the drivers not be assisting each other instead of opposing each other or did you mean a set of two opposing the other set of two?

2. In an isobaric configuration where the drivers are magnet to cone, shouldn't there be a sealed area between the magnet and cone with the 'inside driver having another sealed area as per the T-S parameters? I may be rong since I have only concentrated on Sealed and Ported enclosures.

Regards,

Ravindra.

 

[elangoas]

Hello,

Stop! Take a step back.
Understand what your target is. It is the key!

Understand it so well to yourself that if you explain it to your pet, even it should nod in approval of understanding.

Sure.. Unable to reposition the subs at ideal locations in living room, but can have them on ceiling, for the benefit of smoother response and almost disapperaing in ceiling, but does the function..

1. With the woofer positions as shown, should the drivers not be assisting each other instead of opposing each other or did you mean a set of two opposing the other set of two?

Sorry, may be the attached picture was misleading (wasn't aware).. Just shared that as an exmaple..

I meant opposing each other, like image below.. Oppose, infinite baffle as i read that i will cancel the vibrations from the driver to mounted surface..

2. In an isobaric configuration where the drivers are magnet to cone, shouldn't there be a sealed area between the magnet and cone with the 'inside driver having another sealed area as per the T-S parameters? I may be rong since I have only concentrated on Sealed and Ported enclosures.

Am not aware of which subwoofer design config would be good technically.. Just aware of basic types (sealed, ported, infinite baffle).. thinking on the lines of two subs mounted to ceiling at each location (opposing), so it cuts vibrations induced to ceiling, hidden in side the ceiling also provide smoother response..

Would an infinite baffle (huge sealed enclosure) design work with opposing drivers in my situation (like the above image)?..

 

[Ravindra Desai]

Great!
As long as you know what you are doing.

Its not just the HUGE subs that you have got there, but the whole armory that I can see in the background...!!!
Wow and just wow!

Personally I am against electronic tuning of the room.
If I speak loudly (not shout) and hear no echo, even a small one, then I am ok with the room as is.
If there is an echo, then I would treat it lightly for stereo and moderately for surround.

I would straighten out the driver response, if required, from the near field response.
If it has small quirks, I won't even bother to do that.

That's it. That way, I am not fiddling with the work of the music director to iron out flaws in my room acoustics or in my signal chain.
But that's just me.

Sure.. Unable to reposition the subs at ideal locations in living room, but can have them on ceiling, for the benefit of smoother response and almost disapperaing in ceiling, but does the function..

With subs working below 120Hz, they should dissapear anyway, no?

.. thinking on the lines of two subs mounted to ceiling at each location (opposing), so it cuts vibrations induced to ceiling, hidden in side the ceiling also provide smoother response..

That's a lot of assuming there...with no concrete theory. I suggest you keep it simple. Really very simple.

Would an infinite baffle (huge sealed enclosure) design work with opposing drivers in my situation (like the above image)?..

Dunno.
What I do know, for sure, is that with the type of subs that you are dealing, build such an enclosure and keeping it rock steady would be a challenge not worth accepting.

Kindly note that I am sharing my personal opinion and they could be biased towards the KIS (keep it simple, dummy) theory.

Good luck!

Regards,

Ravindra.