TT for beginner - Need advice

[reubensm]

Asit's point is very valid...especially for me personally, being the son of an audio enthusiast and being one myself for the last 35 years...but for the audiophile newbie, its always safe to get a feel of the medium first before exploring it in detail. I've encountered some funny situations due to this:

1) a friend selling off his Rega Planar 3 just because he could not play old LPs without a skip or two. He hasn't bought another TT till date and says its not worth the trouble
2) a friend who learnt from media reports that the vinyl format produces better quality sound than any other media, again took the dive, this time with an expensive SL1200 import and again, returned to CDs as he expected to hear the so-called "perfect sound". The TT was ultimately sold for a little more than what he paid for it, thanks to Technics discontinuing the model. He too exited the format.

For many of us who either remain with vinyl or turn to vinyl, the sound quality and listening comfort does matter the most, however the nostalgia of playing a "record" also thrills us. Vinyl is a great hobby to indulge in, but new entrants may be scared away as their un-informed expectations may rule the roost. Also, a lot of good vinyl in the pre-used market has either been consumed (by people like us) or is very highly priced and hence, newbies tend to settle for the less expensive options.

If one has access to a knowledgeable forum (like our's out here) and also has access to a friend who owns, lives and enjoys vinyl, there's no reason why the indulgance can be at the higher ends. Nevertheless, my intent was to advise the typical audiophile newbie who has probably bought is Marantz CD player and NAD amplifier about 2 years ago and has had the initial onboarding into the world of high quality sound but is not satisfied and wants to take things to a higher level.

Many in this world, still believe or assume that it would take a 180gm audiophile LP, played with a 100k+ turntable and a 20+k magnetic cartridge to replicate the sound of an audio cd burnt out of a set of mp3 downloads (at 128k atleast) played on a Marantz cd6003 with a decent amp and set of speakers. My point is, some are not just cut out for the format (vinyl). What it takes is genuine love for the format for one to get stuck in.

 

[Hiten]

Have not read entire thread, but my personal opinion is no matter if you buy used good quality TT or new high end you can enjoy the analogue sound. As Prem has said Analogue recording is best heard through vinyl. As for budget its one's individual choice and one has to decide the money he wants to spend on improvements one can get by spending money on high end.
Regarding sourcing of vinyls thanks to vinyls getting popular vinyls are available new, from dealers and from ebay easily. Though I dont have high end system of Turntable or CD player I like 'sound of vinyl' as I find CD's 'explicitly precise' sound not enjoyable. subjectively speaking ofcourse .
I have seen people disillusioned by hassle of setting up a turntable and getting together different components which I guess many of us enjoy. hyeah:.

 

[MAYHEM_METAL]

For many of us who either remain with vinyl or turn to vinyl, the sound quality and listening comfort does matter the most, however the nostalgia of playing a "record" also thrills us. Vinyl is a great hobby to indulge in,

Also, a lot of good vinyl in the pre-used market has either been consumed (by people like us)

Man you and I think so much alike. Unfortunately my wife thinks I am insane with this obsession of Vinyl. Yes I am totally obsessed with Vinyl. Sometime I just sit near my player and look how the Stylus moves in the groves. CRAZY isn't it. Its not always the sound. Its more to it.

 

[sachu888]

Man you and I think so much alike. Unfortunately my wife thinks I am insane with this obsession of Vinyl. Yes I am totally obsessed with Vinyl. Sometime I just sit near my player and look how the Stylus moves in the groves. CRAZY isn't it. Its not always the sound. Its more to it.

+1, Same here.

Regards,

Sachin

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Thanks all for your valuable advices.

The thought of going to Vinyl after PC and CDP based system is to get more enjoyment (compared to my CDP) and simultaneously to get the opportunity to see the visual of spining LPs and movement of cart. It reminds me when I had first purchased IFB Bosch front loading washing machine. I used to see the movement of clothes and its gradual cleaning with water, lather through the front door port.

To me, TT is not only just a machine producing involving music / sound, but also should be an art object. somehow, I don't prefer to go for used TT, which may have marks of owner's negligency, which will hurt my feelings.
If I go for an used TT, I may not be sure of it's condition. Are the bearings worn out? Are spareparts easily available if repair is necessary. Also vintage decks have certain charm but from a technology point of view they are often not on today's technological level, especially in concern to bearing design. Old marvels like the Garrards and Thorens players are definetely good but they are also a never ending construction site for improvements.

Even if I am an absolute beginner, but I have chosen to go for a new one, which will be happily owned for a decent time without any upgradation bug. In my CDP/Amp I adopted the same principle and I am quite happy.

Also, as Asit has rightly mentioned, I think it is always better to purchase TT from a shop/guy who has good knowledge about the machine and can provide guidance to specially a beginner like me. And Jochen is the right person, I believe. I have visited twice his TLR at Bangalore and build my opinion based on it. There may be equally experienced seller elsewhere in India, but I am yet to come across them.

But even with all the support and guidance from the seller, for TT it matters most if I get the help from any local forum member / experienced person in case of absolute necessity. I am confident, I will get help from somebody nearby.

Yesterday, after about one and half year since I started my audio journey I could get a dedicated electric line from the mains and while deciding the wall sockets, made two additional wall sockets (for TT and Phono stage). So, I think my journey to TT has already begun.

I am about 55 years old and this is the right (or last) opportunity to go for a decent new TT. Down the lane, the fund may become dearer and difficult to cough up.

 

[prem]

Hi Amitnoida

Suggest you go for a Cello. You will be happy. You can use a better tonearm and cartridge. Match it with a Trigon. Should give you years of enjoyment. Keep things simple.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Hi Amitnoida

Suggest you go for a Cello. You will be happy. You can use a better tonearm and cartridge. Match it with a Trigon. Should give you years of enjoyment. Keep things simple.

Thanks Prem for your encouraging advice. It is valuable for me.

The logic and reality for choosing Rega RB251 arm over 9" Classsic arm of Unipivot design is the later is not really something an absolute beginner should go for. As I have read, it's very delicate in handling. Secondly the scheu Cello and Classic arm combo can not be sent as a plug and play TT. The tone arm has to be mounted at my place only. Then the cartridge has to be mounted to the arm. I think the RB251 with upgraded Cardas wiring, which I have thought to go for is a very good arm for beginners and an arm for a lifetime. Only when one day if I get some experince with turntables I may think of upgradation to the Classic or Cantus arms.

 

[Bluu]

Thanks Prem for your encouraging advice. It is valuable for me.

The logic and reality for choosing Rega RB251 arm over 9" Classsic arm of Unipivot design is the later is not really something an absolute beginner should go for. As I have read, it's very delicate in handling. Secondly the scheu Cello and Classic arm combo can not be sent as a plug and play TT. The tone arm has to be mounted at my place only. Then the cartridge has to be mounted to the arm. I think the RB251 with upgraded Cardas wiring, which I have thought to go for is a very good arm for beginners and an arm for a lifetime. Only when one day if I get some experince with turntables I may think of upgradation to the Classic or Cantus arms.

Very wise decision. The cabling upgrade is not frightfully expensive. The arm looks a little out of place on that gorgeous table but looks cannot be the reason we don't buy audio gear.

 

[Brajendu]

I strongly feel to begin my TT/Vinyl journey in near future. I first got an great listening experience to few LPs at Viren Baxi ji's (Lyrita audio) home ta Sarita Vihar, New Delhi last year and I was so very impressed, but I don't remember what was his TT and it's configuration. I'm from Pune and just heard an Sherwood TT (Rs. just 12500/-) at Oceanic Sound, Camp. Though it's not very good, but OK for a budget TT. They keep few LPs in stock.

May I know who all are the TT owners from Pune in this forum? I would surely be interested to get some advise and possibly be present for some audition.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

I strongly feel to begin my TT/Vinyl journey in near future. I first got an great listening experience to few LPs at Viren Baxi ji's (Lyrita audio) home ta Sarita Vihar, New Delhi last year and I was so very impressed, but I don't remember what was his TT and it's configuration. I'm from Pune and just heard an Sherwood TT (Rs. just 12500/-) at Oceanic Sound, Camp. Though it's not very good, but OK for a budget TT. They keep few LPs in stock.

May I know who all are the TT owners from Pune in this forum? I would surely be interested to get some advise and possibly be present for some audition.

@Brajendu, you are the second person mentioning about Virenji's great Vinyl set-up. First I came to know from Manav. Virenji is very respectable person and I like to visit his place for listening his TT and LPs. Thanks for the information.

 

[prem]

Hi amitnoida

I did not know that the Classic arm was difficult to set up. I had assumed it would be easy since its designed by Scheu. Did Jochen tell you its difficult to set up and its very sensitive?

 

[prem]

Hi amitnoida

Do not worry about lps. There are plenty available in excellent condition. You need to be patient.

 

[prem]

Viren has a Garrard 301 table. Tonearm is his own creation. I forget the name of his cartridge but its the origin of Koetsu.

 

[Bluu]

Hi amitnoida

I did not know that the Classic arm was difficult to set up. I had assumed it would be easy since its designed by Scheu. Did Jochen tell you its difficult to set up and its very sensitive?

Hi Prem,

The Classic arm is a unipivot design which means it cannot be pre-installed by Scheu (or Jochen) and has to be installed by Amit. Also, being a unipivot design means it is very sensitive to external conflicts. Jochen mentioned to me that even removing a cloth cover from the Premier that he owns can sometimes knock the arm off its perch. He uses a very ingenious method to keep the arm in place, which is, believe it or not, a rubberband! From a beginner's point of view, the Classic is harder to set up and keep properly aligned as opposed to a more, shall we say, plug-and-play design seen on Rega arms.

 

[Asit]

Here is a brief article on Arm design [English] including unipivots.

Regards.

 

[prem]

Thanks Bluu. I had no clue that unipivot tonearms are difficult to install and sensitive to external influences.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

I think I may post the updates. Since last one and half month my progress is nothing mentionable other than listening to few more TTs.

Although, meanwhile purchased few TT accessories (Stylus cleaner, Mofi inner sleeves, antistatic gun, Record cleaning brush, spirit level) from Needle Doctor. Got the first taste of being called to Foreign Post office customs deptt. Got good treatment as genuine user and got the items cleared after payment of duty and managed to get the window delivery. The lady Customs Superintendent suggested to get the items imported as GIFT in future without any customs duty payment. My next item to import is Spin Clean.

Meanwhile, my LP collection has started in a humble way. About 35 LPs have been collected so far.

Regarding auditionng of TTs, I could audition Goldenote Valore at J&B Mumbai. It is a dynamic and decent TT. But the Babele cart is entry level and didn't impress me much. Otherwise, the TT is simple and compact with 8" tonearm. It has AC motor without any speed control. So it require constant frequency power and the company supplies an AC power module at extra cost. Mr. Jacob Koshi of J&B is a knowledgable guy with great ear. He recently visited the Milan audio show and selected some good brands. One can expect them shortly at J&B. Goldenote is ex Blue Note from Italy and is a reputed company with very good after sales service. But the review of Goldenote Valore is vey limited in English language.

Another TT I could listen at Mr. Hritik Singh's house at Delhi, it was Rega P3. It has Rega SB300 tonearm. I think if the cartridge is upgraded it will sound much better. But Hritik is looking for an upgrade to Garrad 301.

After surfing the net, Vinyl Engine forum etc., somehow I find that Ortofon 2M Blue cart will be better for me than Super OM series carts. I have listened Super OM 30 (at Asit's place) and 2M Red (at Nirmal's place). Super OM 30 is detailed with good bass but treble is found to be forward. As a result I find it slightly bright. Although, when I heard OM-30 at Asit's house it was not properly burnt in. But in the review also, Super OM-30 is reported to be slightly bright compared to 2M Red or 2M Blue. I think 2M Blue will be a better cart for me as its trackability is better and is not bright.

Regarding tone arm, I have fascination towards 12" tonearm. So my preference is to select a TT, which can take a 12" arm.

Scheu Premier MK-II has a 12" tonearm model. Scheu have Classic 12" arm, which costs about 37k. Are there any other 12" tonearm in this price range, which will be suitable for Ortofon 2M Blue cart?

Today, I could talk with Mr. Abhisek of Audio Reference Bangalore. Audio Reference deals with Project and Thoren brands. Project is a good brand with plenty models and so the same for Thoren. Abhisek suggested Thoren TD309 at the price range of 95k. If I find opportunity, I would like to audition these two brands. In fact Project brand TTs I have already heard at Nirmal;s and Pratim's house. Both of them were economical models but decent.

 

[anm]

keep posting your exp Amit. It is going to help many of us to decide

 

[Asit]

Shubho Vijaya to all.

Amit,

It's interesting to read more about your journey into the vinylworld. The most wonderful part of it is that you are able to travel around and audition a few wonderful TTs, take your time and then decide. Your experience will be helpful for others as well, as Anant has already commented.

Please make a note of the phono pre-amps as well when you audition. This is one important aspect often neglected by newcomers into vinyls (This includes me too. As I said elsewhere I am a long-time owner of TTs but have never really into it until recently, and that's why I consider myself a newcomer too).

The 2M Blue is the sweet spot, according to many, in the current Ortofon MM line-up, from the point of view of VFM. For USD 200, one gets a very respectable cartridge.

However, it is very very unlikely that the 2M Blue has better trackability than the Super OM 30. A nude fine line needle is generally significantly better than a nude elliptical needle. However, there is argument for and against the cartridge engine being better in the 2M line than the Super OM line. There are discussions on this in a few forums. Also keep in mind that while all the super OM cart engines are the same, the 2M Black and Bronze engines are better than the 2M Red and Blue. That means a 2M Blue body when coupled with a Black needle is not as good as the full 2M Black cart.

As far as I remember we found the sound bright and unnatural in one of the LPs (Bengali songs by Arati Mukherjee). Yes, the cart was yet to fully burn in at that stage, but there were 4 bigger reasons for it: 1) the speed was not correct, as we discovered after we slowed it down a bit, 2) The LP was a very poor reproduction (we played other female vocals for extended periods and they sounded acceptable even with a slightly higher speed, 3) the CA 640p has a slightly bright signature (many people mod the 640p, at least replace a few of the caps and get better results. However, for the money even the stock version is very good, no doubt about it), and 4) I was using a fully silver solid core cable between my phono and my amp (with copper cables the sonics would definitely be a bit softer).

Frankly, from my research the Super OM 30 is quite near the top as far as MM carts go, and it will comfortably be better than many ordinary MCs. Having said that, you got to understand its sound signature. It's not a mellow and soft sounding cartridge. If you want that kind of sound, this is certainly not for you. This is a crisp and true sounding and quite a dynamic cartridge. Since the time of your audition, it has now now tamed down a bit with burn in. But I'd not call it bright. There is a fine line between being true and being bright. I'd rather call it true and I like it that way because based on my experience live music is not always mellow or soft, on the other hand it is supposed to hit you at times and hit you hard. Of course, this is my choice and therefore you got to take it with a pinch of salt. On the net, you will find fault with most things on earth. Of course, everybody speaks from their perspective as I have done above. There are a few comparisons on the net between the 2M Blue and the Super OM 30 and the majority of them are not in favor of the Blue. However, as I said above, for USD 200 as opposed to above USD 300 (for the Super OM 30), it's a VFM.

I have written in my TT thread about my experience with the Super OM 30 paired with the Ray Samuels Nighthawk. Of course, comparing with my Rs 7K Ca 640p phono pre is not fair for this above 40K phono, expectedly it improves on the 640p almost in every department, although I will stick my neck out in saying that the 640p does a tremendous job given its price. First and foremost, the sound becomes smoother, and the bass becomes very tuneful. However, there is one aspect I am afraid I am less than satisfied. The Super OM 30 and the Nighthawk combination is too polished or mellow to my ears, and falls short of conveying the full musical emotions (I have not written about this in my posts before, but have privately communicated this to a few members). I have 2 points here: 1) a very well celebrated phono may not be the best match for all carts, 2) the Super OM 30 may also sound a bit mellow (at least for me) with a certain phono.

Although I am not an expert in TTs, I can give you my thought process when I decided within my budget. First the TT (without arm/cart), then a matching pair of arm and cart, and finally a matching phono for the cart. I am still not done with the final stage. With fixed gain phono-stages, another important factor may be the proper matching the output voltage from the phono and the input sensitivity of the amp (please look at my post in my phono pre thread: http://www.hifivision.com/amplifiers/18958-phono-pre-suggestion-4.html#post291169). Ideally one would like to have a bit of room for volume control on the amp.

A bit of food for your thoughts.

Regards.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Asit,

Yes, it is true that phonostage is an important component in sound. The phonostage used in my Goldenote Valore audition was Goldenote Phono-1. Goldenote has two phono-stage models - Phono-1 and Phono-2. Phono-2 has an inductive power module supply, which virtually works like a DC battery. They both can be used with MC (from 0.2 mv to 0.9 mv) and MM cart (from 1 mv to 5 mv). Another important item used was Goldenote Dumbo - an AC power Filter module. It decouples, filters and re-build AC power. It is perceived to provide better dynamics, clarity and details.

I am yet to finalise the TT. Actually, you have rightly said that selection process comprises of three stages:
1) selection of TT
2) selection of tonearm + cartridge combo
3) selection of phonostage

Among the TTs I have auditioned so far, Scheu impressed me most considering its performance /value ratio. Cello, the entry level model from Scheu is a quite decent TT. Goldenote Piccolo(above their entry level model Valore), which is an acrylic plinth model like Cello costs 1.16L with B5 tonearm and Babbel MM cart, whereas Cello costs about 80k with Rega 251 arm and Ortofon Super OM-30 cart. Although, I could not audition Goldenote Piccolo.

Out of the four components e.g. TT, Tonearm, Cartridge and phonostage the most complicated and difficult to select is tonearm, at least to me. There are numerous options and models available starting from entry level price to super high price level. Here, the experts opinion and suggestions plays important role. The choice between Gimbal arm or unipivot arm, shorter arm length vis-a-vis 12" long arm - too complicated to decide. I have to select a sturdy tonearm, which is easy to use and will produce decent sound if matched with proper cartridge.

Suggestion in this regard for tonearm + cart combo is welcome.

B5 tonearm, which I have seen in Goldenote valore is very good looking and sturdy arm. But how it compares with Rega 251 tonearm, I don't know. Appreciate, if I get some input.

Regarding TTs, Scheu tables are no doubt VFM. If one can have their Premier MK-II model, he will remain happy for a long long period.

Another thing, I always think very important is the responsiveness of the parent companies. Among the above two companies Goldenote Italy is found to be more responsive and prompt in comparison to Scheu Germany.

Regarding Cart, I have read in one posting in Vinyl Engine forum that one noticed improvement in sound after changing the cartridge from OM-30 to 2M Blue. I have not listened 2M Blue so I can not conclusively tell it. But OM-30 with CA 640p phonostage, I found slightly bright even in the Sonu Nigam's song in Jodha Akbar. It is absolutely my personal opinion and based on the sound signature I am used to listen from my existing set-up. I also love the emotion of the song and don't like mellow sound. Too much tubey free flowing kind of sound from single driver speakers does not enthuse my listening. Of course, brightness in sound can be tamed to some extent by proper selection of phonostage, interconnect etc. If I go for OM-30, I will try, at least once, the Lyrita phono taking from Nirmal for a day.