TT for beginner - Need advice

[sachu888]

Prem and hrtk,

With all due respect, I disagree a bit with the general proposition both of you are making in general.

I think music reproduction is not all about details, provided all your sources (CDP,TT etc) are reasonable enough. To use an audiophile term, a correctly set-up reasonable TT always produces a more organic sound with a life-like immediacy and large soundstage. One has a feeling that one is actually sitting within the music zone. The presentation is qualitatively different. For a listener in the next room (who does not know if a live music or a music reproduction through a system is taking place inside), the sonics from the TT will always sound closer to the live presentation. And one does not need a super expensive TT for that. MY Cello is capable of producing this qualitative difference with my amp and speakers in my room.

I have heard the Ayon CD1 many times. There is absolutely no doubt that this is a gem of a CDP, and a value for money even at its price point. However, I have a feeling the importance of the source at times is over-emphasized. Given a reasonable source, the amp+speaker combo and especially the speakers are more important. I have made this test many times in my life, and found the speakers (and amp+ speaker synergy) to be of paramount importance. For example, I have a CA740c CDP which, by the yardsticks of a typical audiophile of HFV, is not worth very much (although it has received very good reviews all over including one from Sam Telig of Stereophile). But I have had many audiophiles over in my place (and some of them have each equipment costing about 10L or more), and they found the sonics to be quite respectable. Among forum members Pratim, Amit, Subho (from Delhi), Saikat (from Bangalore, now in US), Sangram and a few others have listened to my system. These people have heard set-ups costing many times more, but I cannot imagine they were just polite when they had praise for the sonics of my rig. As Amit rightly understood, it is primarily due to the speakers and of course the amp+speaker combo. I myself have heard a few CDPs (including CDP separates) which cost a few times the price of the Ayon CD1. I know what areas I can improve if I go to a better CDP: the sound will become a bit smoother on them. Tonality, resolution, dynamics and imaging may not see any significant improvement. But a better CDP will get rid of a bit of glare that is apparent when you compare with a good TT sound.

The above is of course my opinion, based on my own experience playing around with my set-up and hearing other set-ups. I may be quite wrong, but if anybody is passing by Kolkata, he is very welcome to come to my place and test the above to see if some of it is true or not.

Now, given the above, when I find my TT sound more satisfactory to me than my CDP, it is not a trivial statement. I do not want to discount the realization or dismiss it with the argument that my CDP is only a CA 740c, and anything would beat it.

I am sorry, I needed to bring my own rig to make my point. But then I understand my system, I think and know its potentials and limitations, its strengths and weaknesses. Obviously the strength are the speakers, and the amp+speakers synergy.

I honestly believe a correctly set up serious TT (like my Scheu Cello) when fed to a good amp and speakers combo will produce a more enjoyable experience than a really highly capable CDP like Ayon CD1s.

As I said above, this is only my opinion which is based on my own experience. I have never cared much about brand names or prices of equipments or even aesthetics of the set-up (every equipment has a different colour in my rig), and only cared about VFM and sonics.

Regards.

+1 Agreed.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[pratimbayal]

Amit

Thanks for this good review and information- you wrote like literature writer .


Regards

 

[malvai]

@amitnoida: sir, you are mosty welcome to get a taste of a very meticulously set up and matched TT - Clearaudio Ambient + Clearaudio Satisfy Carbon Fibre tonearm + Clearaudio Concerto MC Cart + Nighthawk phono...

you can Pm me your number and we can take it from there! Do bring any LPs that you want to specifically hear or dip into over 2000 LP's spanning Jazz, Rock, Pop, Blues, Blues Rock, Hindi film, western classical & Indian classical.

I believe that most decently set up tables can be more pleasureable than ANY cdp in the market...

 

[hrtk]

Hi Asit,

With all due respect to your set up and knowledge about music. I would like to address a few issues brought up by you in your previous post. Please dont read it as a heated discussion at any point.

Organic: There is no doubting the fact that a TT will sound organic even if compared to more expensive CDPs. But that is not the issue Mr. Amit is facing. Where all the TTs he heard should be and will be organic in sound, his problem is getting the right amount of detail and refinement along with the organic sound. And there is no way a cheap cart can do that cuz a cheap cart will do what it is designed to do. Where it may sound organic it will have its limitations in all frequency areas, detail retrieval and musical presentation. If a cheap cart cud do that then there wud be no need for cartridge manufacturers to design and produce such expensive carts.

Amp and speaker combo: Again that is not the point of debate that Mr.Amit has. He is very happy with his amp and speaker combo which i wud agree as i am using the same amp and it does produce good music at that price point and it is not a "Brand".

Sam Tellig: Well he is not considered as one of the better reviewers as he is biased and known to be putting his mouth where his money is. He is also known to be reviewing the so called "Brands".

Brands: Everyone has a budget and a price point to assemble a rig and people try to get the best within that price point.Well if you havent noticed none of the products discussed in mine or Prem's posts are so called "Brands". So neither of us is worried about brands here. Cambridge Audio is the most marketed Brand in its price range. Names like Leben,MHDT,Audio Tekne,Shindo,Rethm are not brands. They are names kept lovingly by their designers and they dont spend a penny on marketing as they believe in delivering you a good product without passing the cost of marketing on to people like us. Cambridge would be passing on at least 30-40% on to you for the marketing costs. I hadn't even heard the names of the products when i started my audiophile journey. It was through word of mouth and speaking with audiophiles who had the ease of auditioning them and then comparing and reaching a conclusion. Now its upto people like us to see whos reviews and ears we trust.

Cartridges like Shelter 501, Music Maker III and Benz are good cartridges regardless of the brand and they will take your vinyl listening experience to another level provided you can shell out the price they command.

Best.

 

[jls001]

I think the OP himself made it amply clear that the systems he listened to were less than optimal. He could not listen to stevieboy's 301, nor arj's L75 to its real potential (I believe the heavy plinth is still missing in the equation, and that's a lot missing when it comes to an L75). Both these systems would need a lot of tweakery to bring them up to compete with, and perhaps exceed, the sonics of an Ayon CD1, which he is already intimately familiar with. So if the OP is not keen on these DIYs (or get it done through various experts who I must say are not exactly cheap), the only other option is to look for new 'tables.

@amitnoida: to be able to narrow down your choices, it would be very good if can you give us some indication of your budget. Do include a good phono stage in the overall cost (besides good arm and cartridge).

 

[Asit]

Hi hrtk,

Well, my set-up is quite ordinary. I think you should ask Amit about it, because he has heard my system for close to 6 hours at a stretch. It's not about anybody's set-up. I am sorry, I was not probably able to communicate to you properly. My point is that one does not need to go to a very high end TT to outscore a very good CDP, as some people think. This is only a proposition I am making, not a proof, and as I said in my previous post the proposition is upto confirmation by the listener. The presentation of the TT, I believe, is qualitatively different. Of course one has to have a reasonable enough TT, arm and cart for it. I do not think I was including an entry level cart in that list. But in your last post you mentioned that Amit has not heard so far any audiophile level TT. Please do not discard the Lenco 75 as a non-audiophile product. RPM 9 is also no slouch either. But I agree none of them was probably set-up to give their best (the Lenco with its on-going development and the RPM 9 with the very entry level cart).

I will not answer the part of your post about brands and so on (but it was quite amusing for me to read about Leben and others), as I think it would be inappropriate for me, and more because you definitely did not understand the spirit of my last post. But you have raised yourself a very important question: whose ears we trust? In a way, I was asking the same question in my last post.

Given all the above, there is no harm for Amit to go ahead and buy a very expensive TT with a cart alone costing 60k. I am quite confident his amp will take it, but I do not think his speakers are the best match for that amp. I am afraid, I may not be qualified enough to proclaim that in front of the highly qualified audiophiles here.

Regards

 

[hrtk]

Hi Mr.Amit, from what i see in your reviews is that you havent heard a truly audiophile table and cart combo to shoot down the quality and detailed sound of a 1.5 lakh Ayon CDP. This is the problem many listeners face when they are looking to get the sound closer to their expensive CDP.
In my view to get that detailed sound you have to listen to a combo where the cart alone costs closer to 60-70k(Shelter 501,Music Maker III,Clearaudio Maestro,Benz Micro) just to name a few. You have to hear one of these on a high quality player with a good phono stage and amp combo again.
Vinyl playback is very tricky, you have to get lots of things right unlike a CDP's press play style( correct arm cart combo, accurate loading of the cart with the phono stage, correct VTA, azimuth, weight of the cart and so on). If you manage to put all those together then you have a decent rig to actually shoot down the thin sound of a CDP.

Regards.

Hi Asit, i never pointed towards your set up in the first place. Again please dont take it personally. If you read my first post again i clearly mentioned "Table and Cart combo". Even i had a long discussion with Mr.Amit when he was over at my place and with what i gathered during the conversation, he is looking for detail and refinement from his TT setup more than anything else. He is also looking for the attack and sonic qualities of his Ayon. Keeping that in mind and the combos he listened to lately i made it a point that to get what he is looking for he needs a cart of that caliber. I never questioned the abilities of the Lenco and the RPM9. Please dont misquote me.

I have always emphasized on the carts as you see in my previous 2 posts.

Regards.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Thanks Joshua, Asit, Hritik, Prem for your postings.

As Asit rightly pointed out, my speaker is the weak link in my chain. And in any chain the importance of speaker is paramount. Specially after listening to Asit's Canton speaker and Arjun's set-up with Merlin + Rel Sub I realised it more. In future, I may change my speaker to PMC Tb2i (90 db sensitivity) or similar. I don't have budget to purchase Asit's Canton speakers or Arjun's Merlin+ REL Subs. But the mesmerising top end reproduction of BE-718 is very hard to part with and I am thus taking long time to take final decision.

My total budget for TT+arm+cart+phono+IC etc. is about 1.5 L - 2L (at best). I am trying to find the most optimum solution within this budget. I will not go for an used TT, neither I will purchase any brand which does not have India distributor.

 

[malvai]

amitji, then my strongest recommendations would be:

1. any of the Scheu tables
2. VPI Classic... this table is truly amazing for the money!

 

[arj]

it was a pleasure to meet you Amit..just wish my room/setup was in a better condition

i dont have the time energy to setup my current arm /Cart as i would rather wait for the new one to come..already have Stevieboy's recommended Mint LP tools for the Schick+ Lenco setup !

I just wish i had the CDP connected as well so that you could have heard the difference..while the tonality/separation etc etcof my cd setup is far superior..there is a certain "soul" element to an LP which makes it involving and you could have felt that too...maybe next time

jls001, i do have a heavy birch plinth, but i think my VTA is not right and the tracking force is too low (maybe because of the Mat I put)..am afraid to increase it untill I am sure as i dont want to ruin any LP.

last few months had been bad for me wrt time hence my system was disconnected and all covered up. hope to spend more time now !

 

[Asit]

Hi hrtk,
No question of taking it personally. But being in this for a very long time, people develop certain convictions, and since this is a hobby related to music, it is somehow connected to our souls. In many a discussion in this forum, I keep quiet, because firstly I am an extremely busy person in my profession, but more importantly, if I say something that may go against the popular belief. But if I say something, I have to say what I have experienced in my life repeatedly and that's what I have written in this thread as well. I am not in this for casual conversations and usually speak my heart out.

Prem is a good friend, and I have been to his place to have lunch and listen to his excellent set-up (prior to his recent acquisition of the EMT). So, you see I have heard the Rethms (both the Sadhnas and the custom-made SET amp). We discuss off and on on audio, and he was one of the people who drew my attention to Scheu TTs (however, that does not mean I will agree to whatever he says, and vice versa , it cannot ever be personal). Unfortunately I could not afford any more than a Cello, but I think it is a great TT for the price. I have also heard the Leben CS300 and the CS300XS amp quite extensively from the list of premium brands you wrote about.

I have not quoted you, so question of misquoting does not arise. However, in your post you did not pay much attention to some of the excellent equipments heard (may not have been set up to the optimum level) and concentrated mostly on very expensive set-ups. I will say it again, this is something I cannot agree with entirely. Obviously, anybody would say, a more expensive stuff will be better in general, we do not need a forum like this for that. There is also generally no harm in that either if Amit goes for a matching phono stage and the rest of rig is good enough for it. But a carefully set-up respectable TT may better his CD experience, because this will produce a different kind of sound if the source material is carefully chosen. Let us leave this and let Amit move on.

Regards.

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

the tracking force is too low (maybe because of the Mat I put)..am afraid to increase it untill I am sure as i dont want to ruin any LP.

Arj, a lower tracking force will cause mistracking and is more liable to damage the groves.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[jls001]

Arj, a lower tracking force will cause mistracking and is more liable to damage the groves.

+1 to that.

I didn't know you already have a heavy plinth. DIY-ed? or bought off of some seller?
Joshua

 

[arj]

+1 to that.

I didn't know you already have a heavy plinth. DIY-ed? or bought off of some seller?
Joshua

I bought it from the same eBay seller I referred you to....shipping damaged the corners though

Rajiv thanks..I had it on the lower end of the tracking range...will increase it to the higher end now !!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jls001]

I bought it from the same eBay seller I referred you to....shipping damaged the corners though

Yesterday I discovered something called PTP. Very attractive. Now I am confused whether to go with the plain old heavy plinth or go the fancy way for PTP What I could not fathom yet is whether the PTP is superior to the stock top plate.

 

[arj]

Yesterday I discovered something called PTP. Very attractive. Now I am confused whether to go with the plain old heavy plinth or go the fancy way for PTP What I could not fathom yet is whether the PTP is superior to the stock top plate.

It definitely is.. PTP 4 or 5 ? I thought PTP5 was awesome....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

Rajiv thanks..I had it on the lower end of the tracking range...will increase it to the higher end now !!

Arj,your welcome.

Generally it is better to stay at the higher end of the tracking weight suggested by the manufacturer.

Final tuning increase/decrease of tracking weight can be done by ear.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[Dr.Bass]

So you guys are having fun in my absence

Amit, here are some things I learnt recently (learnt as in by listening), may help you:

1. Ortofon 2M Blue is a relatively cold and a tad bright sounding cartridge. I will not consider it musical unless the table you buy is too warm and sweet by itself. 2M red is good VFM, musical but not very detailed. But if you buy a TT which is detailed then you will not miss much with the 2M Red.

2. Other than Scheu the TTs to buy is either the VPI classic or the ArtisanFidelity Modified Thorens 125 MK2 http://www.artisanfidelity.com/Thorens-TD125-Master-Heirloom.html
I have heard many Thorens here and I can safely say it is one of the most musical TT for the money. It gets the tone, body and PRAT so right that you would forget your equipments within the first 10 secs and listen to music. BTW, there is a slightly used Thorens TD-350 with Rega RB700 arm and Ortofon 2M Red going for sale here in Singapore. I have personally heard the setup 3-4 times. Very good setup. The guy is expecting about SGD 3k. Let me know if I can help here. But if you want to buy new (refurbished), nothing like a ArtisanFidelity Thorens 125 or a VPI Classic.

All the details, refinement you are looking for can be had by just upgrading the cartridge with any of these TTs and a decent tonearm. All you need to do is wait for your favourite high end cartirdge to appear on Audiogon. Look for something that is less than 200 hours used. You get fantastic deals because cartridge is the most often upgraded accessory. As of now if you could get a Denon DL-103R you can forget cartridge upgrade for 2-3 years at least.
iTo buy an MM which is detailed you are anyway looking at $500+. A Denon for $300 will absolutely kill any of the carts under $500 and beat most carts within $2k for sheer musicality. Hope this helps.

 

[gobble]

1. Ortofon 2M Blue is a relatively cold and a tad bright sounding cartridge. I will not consider it musical unless the table you buy is too warm and sweet by itself. 2M red is good VFM, musical but not very detailed. But if you buy a TT which is detailed then you will not miss much with the 2M Red.

Dr. Bass

Firstly good to hear you have become the kid in the chocolate factory with so many choices floating around for HiFi gear


I am curious - in your opinion, what will make the TT detailed (if not the cartridge) and that will balance a cartridge that is not so? The plinth? Quality of tracking? Tone arm material?

--G0bble

 

[Dr.Bass]

Dr. Bass

Firstly good to hear you have become the kid in the chocolate factory with so many choices floating around for HiFi gear


I am curious - in your opinion, what will make the TT detailed (if not the cartridge) and that will balance a cartridge that is not so? The plinth? Quality of tracking? Tone arm material?

--G0bble

Kid in the chocolate factory is spot on :yahoo:

Well every TT sounds different based on the Platter material, suspension design, Plnth, motor, bearing, power supply and some unknowns which many still dont understand. The table itself contributes 70% of the signature sound. 30% of the character is decided by the tonearm and cartridge. So you see ?