TT for beginner - Need advice

Regarding Cart, I have read in one posting in Vinyl Engine forum that one noticed improvement in sound after changing the cartridge from OM-30 to 2M Blue. I have not listened 2M Blue so I can not conclusively tell it. But OM-30 with CA 640p phonostage, I found slightly bright even in the Sonu Nigam's song in Jodha Akbar. It is absolutely my personal opinion and based on the sound signature I am used to listen from my existing set-up. I also love the emotion of the song and don't like mellow sound. Too much tubey free flowing kind of sound from single driver speakers does not enthuse my listening. Of course, brightness in sound can be tamed to some extent by proper selection of phonostage, interconnect etc. If I go for OM-30, I will try, at least once, the Lyrita phono taking from Nirmal for a day.

Amit,

If you remember, we only adjusted the speed at the end of the audition when we had the last 2 LPs (Arati Mukherjee and Mehdi Hasan) and made it a bit slower. The Sonu song was played right at the beginning when the speed was still stlightly too high. In addition, as you know the Jodha Akbar is a digitally remastered LP which is decent but still not always as smooth as a well mastered (analog) and pressed vinyl. I will not judge the Super OM 30 based on just that.

Since your visit, the cart has now fully broken in, and it has become very detailed, dynamic, tonally quite balanced and very musical. I do not hear any unwanted brightness with good records. But I do not want to judge it based on bad recordings etc.

The 2M Blue is very good, based on all reports. I do not have any scope to compare the Blue with my 30. Yes, I have also read all the user reports on the net on these two and a bit more. As I said earlier, the reason I settled for the Super OM 30 was that based on my calculation of resonant frequency, I found the 30 to be a bit better match than the Blue/Bronze/Black (please see my post http://www.hifivision.com/phono-turntables/18378-cartridge-compliance.html#post252002), and, the 30 and 40 are nude fine line as opposed to the Blue which is nude elliptical. Assuming the set-up is correctly done, a fine line is supposed to track better, especially the inner grooves, and is supposed to track better with old records which might have a scratch or two.

I support your choice of MM over MC at this stage. Since my preferred genre of music does not allow me to have a lot of very high quality vinyls, and many of my collection would be used or old (although well maintained) records with the occasional groove noise, MMs with a higher output are preferable than MC with an order of magnitude lower output. I believe it's a similar case with you, and similarly you can also start with a very good MM and then decide down the line as you gather more experience in this business and then evaluate how your vinyl collection is going. Frankly, I have had simply superb reproduction with audiophile quality vinyls too. Ask Pratim to share his experience when he came with a few very expensive and superb quality imported vinyls.

Regards.
 
Thanks Asit. Yes You are right. Sonu song we had listened before fine adjustment of the speed.

The Vilayat Khan record was played marvelous with full emotion and I like to listen the same 100 times. If you ever come accross that record, please don't forget to pick up one for me.

Since your visit, the cart has now fully broken in, and it has become very detailed, dynamic, tonally quite balanced and very musical. I do not hear any unwanted brightness with good records. But I do not want to judge it based on bad recordings etc.
Sound juicy. Just love to listen once more. This time may be after shifting to your new apartment.

I support your choice of MM over MC at this stage. Since my preferred genre of music does not allow me to have a lot of very high quality vinyls, and many of my collection would be used or old (although well maintained) records with the occasional groove noise, MMs with a higher output are preferable than MC with an order of magnitude lower output. I believe it's a similar case with you, and similarly you can also start with a very good MM and then decide down the line as you gather more experience in this business and then evaluate how your vinyl collection is going. Frankly, I have had simply superb reproduction with audiophile quality vinyls too. Ask Pratim to share his experience when he came with a few very expensive and superb quality imported vinyls.
Yes, I decided to start with MM cart.
Luckily, my music choices are varied. I can listen Pop, Soft Jazz, Easy Rock, indian classical, Rabindra Sangit, Old hindi movie songs, Ghazal etc. I have recently ordered 4 records from Speakers Corners and have plan to collect such well mastered records in future also. But used records will grow in my collection at faster rate than those well mastered records. So, MM cart is my choice to start with.
Regards
Amit
 
The Vilayat Khan record was played marvelous with full emotion and I like to listen the same 100 times. If you ever come accross that record, please don't forget to pick up one for me.
There are a few copies I came across already, but none of them were first print. Just wait a bit. Pratim or I would definitely get you one.

Just love to listen once more. This time may be after shifting to your new apartment.
Always welcome.

Yes, I decided to start with MM cart.
Luckily, my music choices are varied. I can listen Pop, Soft Jazz, Easy Rock, indian classical, Rabindra Sangit, Old hindi movie songs, Ghazal etc. I have recently ordered 4 records from Speakers Corners and have plan to collect such well mastered records in future also. But used records will grow in my collection at faster rate than those well mastered records. So, MM cart is my choice to start with.

With MC, one also needs to learn more. Especially, the compatibility with phono stages. At times Step UP Transformers are needed. Etc etc. It is important to set the ball rolling and then learn some of these things on the way.

Regards.
 
I am going to visit Bangalore on 28th Oct'11. Have a plan to drop in Audio Reference Koramongla for audition of Thoren TTs (from 5 pm to 7 pm). It would be great if any generous Forum member in Bangalore invites me to hear their TTs.
 
I am going to visit Bangalore on 28th Oct'11. Have a plan to drop in Audio Reference Koramongla for audition of Thoren TTs (from 5 pm to 7 pm). It would be great if any generous Forum member in Bangalore invites me to hear their TTs.

Hello Amit

Are you there only on the 28th? I have work that day and would only be free in the evening. If you are okay with that, you are most welcome to come by. If you are around on saturday, it will be way more convenient as we'll have a longer time.

Cheers!
 
I am also thinking of a b'lore trip, as my B-I-L will be joining infy (mysore) at that time (28th ) - let's see if that works out.
 
Hello Amit

Are you there only on the 28th? I have work that day and would only be free in the evening. If you are okay with that, you are most welcome to come by. If you are around on saturday, it will be way more convenient as we'll have a longer time.

Cheers!

Thanks ROC for your invitation. After audition at Audio Reference I have one more place (Steve's place) to visit on 28th Oct'11. I am thankful to Steve.

My return is on Saturday evening (around 7 pm). So we can meet on Saturday. Please let me know what time would be convenient to you.
 
Amit

Its nice to see u getting such opportunities to hear those lovely systems of our members. I envy . Anyway looking forward to listen your experience with this Bangalore trip. Best of luck

Cheers
 
Arj (Arjun) has also consented to accommodate my request for hearing his lovely gears. Although, he is busy with repair/renovation work of his house but shown his true love to a fellow forum member and invited me on Saturday morning. Really appreciable.

Arjun had earlier helped me with his opinion and price reasonability when I had purchased my Leben amp. I am thankful to him along with Asit for selecting Leben Amp and its truly an amazing amp.
 
Here is report of my Bangalore visit. This tour was mainly for listening new Thoren TTs and also to meet and listen to some Forum members' set-up specially TTs.

The tour was for 2 days. On Friday I planned to first visit Audio Dynamics (Thorens Distributor) near Forum Mall at Koramangala and then to visit Steve's place at JP Nagar (Near Nandini Hotel).

Audition at Audio Dynamics

As scheduled, I reached Audio Dynamics at around 5 pm. Abhisek Biswas (the owner) also reached around the same time. His showroom is in the 2nd floor. My knees are not so healthy to climb long stairs, but the curiosity to listen Thorens has driven me to climb without any problem.

We have chatted first for about 10 minutes when the gears were put on warming. Abhisek was sharing that TTs are also getting the attention of young generations now-a-days and he has already sold about 6 pieces of TD309. Out of the different models of Thoren TTs, the highest end available there was TD309.

TD 309 is a award winning turntable form Thoren with TP92 tonearm and stock At-95 cart. Abhisek replaced the stock cart with Ortofon 2M Red cart. The phonostage used was Thoren MM005 (it can take both MM and MC cart). The other gears in the chain were Exposure Amplifier and HECO Celan XT 701 floor stander speakers. The cables used were from Atlas. The HECO speakers are a German brand. Although I prefer bookshelf over floor stander but Abhisek didn't have bookshelves connected.

The TD 309 has a unique shaped plinth with glass platter. It has three legs with superb suspension. The TP92 arm is well made, practical and good looking.

It has a counterwight placed on the plinth in the opposite side of the tonearm assembly for weight balancing. The TD 309 is belt driven with a silent DC motor. Also, it has en elctronic speed selector (45 and 33 rpm), placed hidden beneath the plinth. The plinth comes in three colours - Red, black and white.

The LPs available there for audition were all English LPs. I was interested to hear one or two old Hindi music LPs, which I had told in advance to Abhisek, but he couldn't arrange the same. Anyway, we first started with Dianna Krall Lp, then played Norah Jones. The voices came ok but due to Heco speakers overpowering bass, the representation could not be much enjoyable. Also, the set up of the Speaker + amp had scope for improvement. the soundstage was not that big. The Norah Jones voice, which I heard in my Ayon CDp+Leben Amp was more enjoyable that this set up.


Then we played Mantrovani. Although I am yet to develop the taste for Western Classical, TD 309 did a decent job with pleasant consistency through out the frequency range. But the sound could have been more energetic and forceful, which I had found in Goldenote Valore and Scheu Cello. Last we played John Denvar 'Leaving on a Jet plane' and 'Follow me where I go'. In these tracks, the set up performed much better. Actually this Lp's recording was better. The male voice came very nicely. One thing I want to point out here is the cart used was entry level 2M red, the sound and detailing will definitely improve with better cart like 2M Bronze or so. But all in all TD309 could not float my boat.

Audition at Steve's Place

After audition of Thoren at Audio Dynamics I started for JP Nagar. It was about 45 mins journey. Steve has given me such a detailed direction that without any problem I reached his place. His flat is also in the second floor. As soon as I entered his room, I could see the tall Lyrita Harmony speakers and Lyrita Amp and phonostage. These items are not new to me, I have listened to them no of occasions before at Viren's place except the phonostage.

Although Steve has recently acquired a Garrad 301 TT, The TT connected was Project RP-9 with carbon fibre tonearm. Design-wise, it is absolutely close to Scheu Premier. The motor is totally separate and has no connection with the plinth. The platter is of Acrylic. The cart used was Ortofon OM-5E, which is an entry level cart. Actually RP-9 is in use till the Garrad 301 gets ready with SME tonearm. The cart, as planned by Steve is Denon DL-103 modded by Zu Audio. The cart weight after modding, which includes change of the housing also, would be around 14 g, which is high and require heavy arm. Although, Steve is confident to manage the above heavy cart with his SME arm.

Steve played no. of LPs of Jazz, Blue, Ventures. The sound was absolutely analogue. He changed the tubes to Telefunken and then to Mullard plate type in his phonostage. The sound with Telefunken tube was more neutral than the warm and musical sound of Mullard.

All the LPs played by Steve are beautifully cleaned and played without any noise. Steve shown me a stylus cleaner Onzow Zerodust. It can be used for life long period and comparatively easy to use and can be cleaned with warm water. Also, he suggested double brush with velvet record cleaner (replica of Hunt brush), available at Sleevetown.com (Sleeve City). I didn't note down the name of various LPs played and their sounds, as Project TT is not in my radar. However, the session was enjoyable even with the entry level cart. Specially, the change of sound with rolling of tubes were clearly demonstrated by him. During the discussion, he mentioned about the arm+cart combo of Hadcock HG-228 10" arm (700 GBP) with Music Maker-III (500 GBP) cart. I have to read more in net about them. After about 2 hours session, when I left steves home then the clock hits 10'o clock in night. It was a very informative and fruitful session.

Audition at Arjun's home

Next day (i.e saturday) my first appointment was with Arjun. His home near Agara Jn is about an hour journey from my guest house near Golf course. I reached there at around 8-45 am. Arjun's set up is one of the very well thought and balanced set up with Leben 600 amp, Merlin bookshelf speaker, Lenco 75 TT with Linn Akito arm and Nagoka MM cart. He also uses a pair of REL subwoofers with remote to capture the low level bass and control the bass level. The IC and speaker wire used were from Solitone and Nagamura respectively. The phonostage he uses is from Lyrita. As he is planning to upgrade his tonearm to Thomas Schick and cart to MC cart, he is looking for upgradation of his phonostage also. Jochen has given the Trigon Vanguard phono and the battery to him for few days for trial. As the Trigon phono was there available, we have compared briefly between Trigon and Lyrita. Trign sound is also slightly warmish, but it produced better frequency extension than Lyrita. Also, its usability for both MM and MC cart brings value at its price point.

Regarding Lenco TT, it is no doubt a solid TT. With better arm and cart and proper alignment, it would be a very good TT. Arjun is avid Hindi music lover. We have played diferent hindi LPs. First we have played Kinara. The voice of Bhupinder Singh came very well. But the cart alignment was not very proper. Arjun was trying to adjust it during the session. Because of this alignment issue and lack of my experience and calibration gadgets etc. I would like to start with a new and comparatively simple TT rather than an used one.
We then played Jodha Akbar Sonu Nigam song. The performance, I found, was a bit flat. Sonu's voice is definetely livelier than what we have heard. Few more LPs were played and the sound were enjoyable even with not so precisely aligned cart.

I took leave at around 10-15 Am, as Arjun was to attend the Parent Teachers meet at his daughter's school.

Audition at Soumyajit's (ROC) home

After taking lucnh at our Guest House, I started for Soumyajit's home at around 1-30 pm. Soumyajit's home is at Whitefield Road, which is at the outskirt of Bangalore. It took about an hour to reach his home. He greeted me very cordially and introduced to his wife and brother, who came from Kolkata on tour. We then straight headed for his music room. Among his gears, the speaker (Usher BE-718) and CD player (Ayon CD 1s) are same as mine. the amp is Macormack DNA-125 and Lyrita Pre amp. The Lyrita preamp has inbuild phonostage. The TT is Technics SL-B2 purchased from used market. The interconnect as well as speaker wires are from Einstein. Macormack DNA-125 power amp is a good musical warm amp and produces good bass from BE-718. The bass became more, as he told, after putting Ayon Cd1s in the chain. Ayon CD1s beats his Technics TT hands down. Of course, price-wise they are no match..

We have listened few LPs e.g. Dire Strait, Fleetwood Mac etc.. Soumyajit maintains his records well and the sound was decent. But Ayon CD1s, even when used as DAC with Laptop as source and M2 Tech HiFace USB to SPDIF converter and Rich Street Audio SPDIF cable sounds much better than Technics TT.

Our session continued upto 5-30 pm with lot of Adda in very homely atmosphere. Then I left for Airport.

After this tour, I more or less heard and taken audition of all the brands of TTs available in India except Clearaudio.

Now, I have to finally decide.
 
Last edited:
Hi,

Amitnoida, thanks for a detailed write up of your listening experiences at B'lore.

I would suggest that you try listen to the Linn LP12 and Garrard 301 TT's at Viren's home.

Regards
Rajiv
 
Hi Amit,

Nice of you to have written your BLR auditioning experience in reasonable detail. BTW, as you have mentioned Clearaudio in your post, I do not think this brand is marketed in India any more. Ask Manav about it, he owns one and lives in your area.

Regards.
 
Hi Amitnoida

Since you are looking at new tables, to beat the Ayon cd player, you need to look at a Scheu Premier or a Goldenote Bellavista Signature or a Rega 9.
 
Hi Mr.Amit, from what i see in your reviews is that you havent heard a truly audiophile table and cart combo to shoot down the quality and detailed sound of a 1.5 lakh Ayon CDP. This is the problem many listeners face when they are looking to get the sound closer to their expensive CDP.
In my view to get that detailed sound you have to listen to a combo where the cart alone costs closer to 60-70k(Shelter 501,Music Maker III,Clearaudio Maestro,Benz Micro) just to name a few. You have to hear one of these on a high quality player with a good phono stage and amp combo again.
Vinyl playback is very tricky, you have to get lots of things right unlike a CDP's press play style( correct arm cart combo, accurate loading of the cart with the phono stage, correct VTA, azimuth, weight of the cart and so on). If you manage to put all those together then you have a decent rig to actually shoot down the thin sound of a CDP.

Regards.
 
Hi Amitnoida

Since you are looking at new tables, to beat the Ayon cd player, you need to look at a Scheu Premier or a Goldenote Bellavista Signature or a Rega 9.

Both Scheu Premier and Bellavista Signature are in my active list. Which arm-cart combo and phonostage do you suggest?
 
Hi Amitnoida

For Bellavista Signature, would recommend the Bobolli Signature cartridge and B 7 Titanium arm and their Phonstage 2.
 
Prem and hrtk,

With all due respect, I disagree a bit with the general proposition both of you are making in general.

I think music reproduction is not all about details, provided all your sources (CDP,TT etc) are reasonable enough. To use an audiophile term, a correctly set-up reasonable TT always produces a more organic sound with a life-like immediacy and large soundstage. One has a feeling that one is actually sitting within the music zone. The presentation is qualitatively different. For a listener in the next room (who does not know if a live music or a music reproduction through a system is taking place inside), the sonics from the TT will always sound closer to the live presentation. And one does not need a super expensive TT for that. MY Cello is capable of producing this qualitative difference with my amp and speakers in my room.

I have heard the Ayon CD1 many times. There is absolutely no doubt that this is a gem of a CDP, and a value for money even at its price point. However, I have a feeling the importance of the source at times is over-emphasized. Given a reasonable source, the amp+speaker combo and especially the speakers are more important. I have made this test many times in my life, and found the speakers (and amp+ speaker synergy) to be of paramount importance. For example, I have a CA740c CDP which, by the yardsticks of a typical audiophile of HFV, is not worth very much (although it has received very good reviews all over including one from Sam Telig of Stereophile). But I have had many audiophiles over in my place (and some of them have each equipment costing about 10L or more), and they found the sonics to be quite respectable. Among forum members Pratim, Amit, Subho (from Delhi), Saikat (from Bangalore, now in US), Sangram and a few others have listened to my system. These people have heard set-ups costing many times more, but I cannot imagine they were just polite when they had praise for the sonics of my rig. As Amit rightly understood, it is primarily due to the speakers and of course the amp+speaker combo. I myself have heard a few CDPs (including CDP separates) which cost a few times the price of the Ayon CD1. I know what areas I can improve if I go to a better CDP: the sound will become a bit smoother on them. Tonality, resolution, dynamics and imaging may not see any significant improvement. But a better CDP will get rid of a bit of glare that is apparent when you compare with a good TT sound.

The above is of course my opinion, based on my own experience playing around with my set-up and hearing other set-ups. I may be quite wrong, but if anybody is passing by Kolkata, he is very welcome to come to my place and test the above to see if some of it is true or not.

Now, given the above, when I find my TT sound more satisfactory to me than my CDP, it is not a trivial statement. I do not want to discount the realization or dismiss it with the argument that my CDP is only a CA 740c, and anything would beat it.

I am sorry, I needed to bring my own rig to make my point. But then I understand my system, I think and know its potentials and limitations, its strengths and weaknesses. Obviously the strength are the speakers, and the amp+speakers synergy.

I honestly believe a correctly set up serious TT (like my Scheu Cello) when fed to a good amp and speakers combo will produce a more enjoyable experience than a really highly capable CDP like Ayon CD1s.

As I said above, this is only my opinion which is based on my own experience. I have never cared much about brand names or prices of equipments or even aesthetics of the set-up (every equipment has a different colour in my rig), and only cared about VFM and sonics.

Regards.
 
It was a real pleasure meeting you Amit. Sorry we had to end at 10 cos I had to get up at 2.30 again for an early morning flight.

I think you'll end up with a TT your ears will like since you're actually going around listening. :)

By the way the Hadcock was the 242, the 228 is the shorter version.

Regards
 
Get the Wharfedale EVO 4.2 3-Way Standmount Speakers at a Special Offer Price.
Back
Top