TurnTables Sound better than Digital !!! - Really ???

[ranjeetrain]

Or anything that vibrates.

Errr, not ANYTHING. That could go quite far. I mean any transducer!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

What, like, "Get out of my listening room; your ears are ruining the sound for me!" ?

:lol:

 

[KiranPS]

Audio frequency range of LP vs. CD - YouTube

Here is an interesting video of measured frequency response of a LP record vs that of a CD player. The LP has captured frequencies well over 55 Khz but a CD has a hard limit of 22 Khz. And even a 96 KHz flac will only have a freq response of 48 Khz. Well what difference it makes is up for debate, since according to current understanding we cannot hear beyond 20 Khz.

We all thought only visible light was real until we found that there are Infrared rays and XRays both have a way of affecting us. Until "Scientists" found it and its effects , we all assumed that they did not exist and were non existent , un-important and immaterial.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Moral of the story: If you CAN hear 55 KHz, and if you have equipment that can process frequencies that high (amps, speakers they all usually roll off much sooner), by all means go ahead and hear the vinyls :lol:

 

[sann]

Though we cannot hear frequencies above 20KHZ, but those higher frequencies affect the lower order harmonics, and thats what makes the LPs sound better than CD.
[I have not carried out any measurements but this is was I have read somewhere]

In my listening tests, I have found the LPs to sound more dynamic and detailed than CDs, could it be due to the reason state above?

Regards,
sann

 

[Dr.Bass]

Audio frequency range of LP vs. CD - YouTube

Here is an interesting video of measured frequency response of a LP record vs that of a CD player. The LP has captured frequencies well over 55 Khz but a CD has a hard limit of 22 Khz. And even a 96 KHz flac will only have a freq response of 48 Khz. Well what difference it makes is up for debate, since according to current understanding we cannot hear beyond 20 Khz.

We all thought only visible light was real until we found that there are Infrared rays and XRays both have a way of affecting us. Until "Scientists" found it and its effects , we all assumed that they did not exist and were non existent , un-important and immaterial.

And that is using a very average TT and cartridge. Also the sampling device which was a Creative sound card was limited to capture only upto 60khz of frequency. So if we hook up a really high quality TT and a top cartridge of this generation feeding into a very high resolution sound card we may see frequencies well over 100 khz residing on these LPs:clapping:

 

[Dr.Bass]

Moral of the story: If you CAN hear 55 KHz, and if you have equipment that can process frequencies that high (amps, speakers they all usually roll off much sooner), by all means go ahead and hear the vinyls :lol:

Would you switch to LP playback if tomorrow scientists agree that humans can hear beyond 20khz ?

 

[alpha1]

Would you switch to LP playback if tomorrow scientists agree that humans can hear beyond 20khz ?

As long as I can stuff 'em up inside a USB flash drive size

 

[Dr.Bass]

As long as I can stuff 'em up inside a USB flash drive size

Makes sense.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Audio frequency range of LP vs. CD - YouTube

Here is an interesting video of measured frequency response of a LP record vs that of a CD player. The LP has captured frequencies well over 55 Khz but a CD has a hard limit of 22 Khz. And even a 96 KHz flac will only have a freq response of 48 Khz. Well what difference it makes is up for debate, since according to current understanding we cannot hear beyond 20 Khz.

We all thought only visible light was real until we found that there are Infrared rays and XRays both have a way of affecting us. Until "Scientists" found it and its effects , we all assumed that they did not exist and were non existent , un-important and immaterial.

No, we didn't: we knew about heat, we got sunburn...

ISTR (and could be wrong) that that particular video doesn't really prove anything as such. However...

Moral of the story: If you CAN hear 55 KHz,

Though we cannot hear frequencies above 20KHZ, but those higher frequencies affect the lower order harmonics, and thats what makes the LPs sound better than CD.
[I have not carried out any measurements but this is was I have read somewhere]

Would you switch to LP playback if tomorrow scientists agree that humans can hear beyond 20khz ?

We can! We can! And it has been measured*.

(And I've had to eat my words on this one )

Well, we might not be able to hear those sounds, but there is evidence that they affect what we do hear.

There's Life Above 20 Kilohertz!

Oohashi and his colleagues recorded gamelan to a bandwidth of 60 kHz, and played back the recording to listeners through a speaker system with an extra tweeter for the range above 26 kHz. This tweeter was driven by its own amplifier, and the 26 kHz electronic crossover before the amplifier used steep filters. The experimenters found that the listeners' EEGs and their subjective ratings of the sound quality were affected by whether this "ultra-tweeter" was on or off, even though the listeners explicitly denied that the reproduced sound was affected by the ultra-tweeter, and also denied, when presented with the ultrasonics alone, that any sound at all was being played.

I think it says, somewhere in that paper, that even those with hf hearing loss react to those ultrasonic frequencies.

But ultrasonic still means ultrasonic: we can't hear it. But it affects us. Somehow.

We know, and can see, the frequency-range limitation of CD-quality digital. What we don't know, when we see a waveform of lp playback, is what is in that frequency range, or, if our speakers are even reproducing it for us. How many speaker or headphone response curves go much above 30khz?

Dr Bass, how high do Tannoy say your supertweaters go? ...ok, a quick google later and one review says over 50khz. Wow! But I do wonder how much of that is actually recorded at the performer --> lp end of the chain?



*And yes, in this instance I'm pretty impressed that a "scientist" told me that something I never thought possible ...is.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Would you switch to LP playback if tomorrow scientists agree that humans can hear beyond 20khz ?

Nope I still wouldn't, there will be many more considerations.

First of all would be whether I can hear those frequencies. Second would be, if I have equipments that can do that. Most entry and mid level gear wouldn't produce such high frequencies, specially speakers. If every condition is met, I will happily switch. Till then I am happy that I can hear my music in full fidelity even with the convenience and sophistication of digital

 

[ranjeetrain]

I am not a Digital Signal Processing guru, so I wouldn't agree or disagree with the claim of lower order harmonics "affecting" us. However, I have two questions.

(1) How much (what %age) of total music lies in those lower order harmonics?
(2) What prevents recording equipments from capturing those harmonics in a 24/96 or 32/192 digital recording?

I would be glad to hear any convincing answers.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

check the link and quote box in my post. All the audiophiles are crying out, we can hear it! we can hear it! but, in the experiment,

listeners explicitly denied that the reproduced sound was affected by the ultra-tweeter, and also denied, when presented with the ultrasonics alone, that any sound at all was being played.

They did not hear it. But it affected their brain patterns anyway. Curious stuff, eh?

 

[Hiten]

how high do Tannoy say your supertweaters go? ...ok, a quick google later and one review says over 50khz. Wow! But I do wonder how much of that is actually recorded at the performer --> lp end of the chain?

To control surface noise, most of the phono preamps reduce the audio range near and above 20Khz. So I doubt if wide band speakers can produce them as it will depend on phono stage used.

First of all would be whether I can hear those frequencies.

An example to understand would be : when guitar string is struck it not only vibrates from two fixed ends but also at interval of 1, 2, 3 points. These harmonics makes complete sound of that note. So harmonics are the part and parcel of fundamental frequency and some instrument's harmonics may be of higher range than 20khz (but at lower db levels). Some audiophiles (and almost all vinyl nuts ) believe that if those are cut off audible range gets affected. A good wideband Phono stage which can differentiate between surface noise and audio is a good thing to have for a high end setup.
Since I am cursed with tin ears I can enjoy both vinyls and CDs. :licklips:

 

[ranjeetrain]

when guitar string is struck it not only vibrates from two fixed ends but also at interval of 1, 2, 3 points. These harmonics makes complete sound of that note. So harmonics are the part and parcel of fundamental frequency and some instrument's harmonics may be of higher range than 20khz (but at lower db levels). Some audiophiles (and almost all vinyl nuts ) believe that if those are cut off audible range gets affected.

Hiten, I'll buy that. HOWEVER, please tell me WHY those harmonics can't be recorded in a high bandwidth high resolution digital stream such as 24/96 or 32/192? WHY the notion that digital can't have those harmonics?

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

I asked this question twice earlier on this thread, but there were no replies. Perhaps Dr. Bass will shed light.

To describe in simplified terms, the undulations on the record surface represent both the amplitude and frequency of the different sounds making up the music. The higher harmonics have both higher frequency as well as much lower amplitude, as per some discussions earlier in this thread. Hence, if one were to consider in isolation the grooves pertaining to the harmonics, they would be very small and tightly spaced undulations.

In reality, there is only one groove on the record player, within which we can imagine that these finer peaks and troughs (pertaining to higher harmonics) have been superimposed on the basic peaks and troughs.

How fine are these micro peaks and troughs? If a record is played 20 times, will these still survive? Will not wear and tear eliminate them gradually until we are left largely with the basic sounds and notes? Let us keep aside the matter of high end cartridges - what matters first is the availability of information on the disc itself.

Dr.Bass, would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Nope I still wouldn't, there will be many more considerations.

First of all would be whether I can hear those frequencies. Second would be, if I have equipments that can do that. Most entry and mid level gear wouldn't produce such high frequencies, specially speakers. If every condition is met, I will happily switch. Till then I am happy that I can hear my music in full fidelity even with the convenience and sophistication of digital

That is good thinking!

One more question, if scientists come back tomorrow and say they made a mistake and humans can actually hear only upto 10khz, will you switch to mp3 or downgrade your system to roll off everything above 10khz ?

Sorry, my intention is not to poke you. Just wanted to understand why should we allow any scientist to decide which medium should we use to listen to music ? Going by science it would turn out that even 24/192 is useless because it captures all those additional information beyond 20khz which we cannot hear!! Wouldnt it be rather rational to just listen to some high quality setups (both analogue and digital variety) and say "I like digital/analogue" ? Arent all arguments over after that ? No scientist or even the highest rated audio guru can even dare to convince you otherwise.

 

[Dr.Bass]

I asked this question twice earlier on this thread, but there were no replies. Perhaps Dr. Bass will shed light.

To describe in simplified terms, the undulations on the record surface represent both the amplitude and frequency of the different sounds making up the music. The higher harmonics have both higher frequency as well as much lower amplitude, as per some discussions earlier in this thread. Hence, if one were to consider in isolation the grooves pertaining to the harmonics, they would be very small and tightly spaced undulations.

In reality, there is only one groove on the record player, within which we can imagine that these finer peaks and troughs (pertaining to higher harmonics) have been superimposed on the basic peaks and troughs.

How fine are these micro peaks and troughs? If a record is played 20 times, will these still survive? Will not wear and tear eliminate them gradually until we are left largely with the basic sounds and notes? Let us keep aside the matter of high end cartridges - what matters first is the availability of information on the disc itself.

Dr.Bass, would love to hear your thoughts.

Gerry, I am a novice when it comes to analogue playback systems. Wearing out of records is a known phenomena and it happens. I dont remember reading anywhere which frequencies wear out faster. Typically records which have signs of wearing out (even partially) just tend sound dull and uninteresting. The life of music seems to be missing on these records. My general thoughts would be it is not only missing some high harmonics but also the fundamentals have worn out to a clearly audible degree. The case where only harmonics have worn out audibly havent yet crossed me with any vinyl till date. It must be a more wholesome wearing process IMO.

The point is after how many use can we start noticing such anomalies. It depends on many many things:

1. Quality of vinyl comes first to my mind.
2. Quality of the cut. There is something called "deep groove" cuts which Columbia used in the 60s and 70s and they supposedly last very long. Other labels must have their own standards.
3. Cartridge
4. Tonearms
5. tracking force used
6. Anti skate
7. many more

While I am new to this domain but I have been reading a lot on various forums on various topics around analogue and have been meeting many many audiophiles who are into vinyls since last 20-30 years. I have never read anyone saying their vinyls wore out due to playing too many times. It might be possible in a studio or radio station where they play some records too many times (say 2000 times) but in general usage especially when used by audiophiles who take good care of records, use good cartridges and proper tonearms and tracking forces, records literally last a life time without an audible loss of sound quality. People who keep duplicates is only as precautionary measure against some accidental scratch or something like that.

 

[Dr.Bass]

We can! We can! And it has been measured*.

(And I've had to eat my words on this one )

Well, we might not be able to hear those sounds, but there is evidence that they affect what we do hear.

There's Life Above 20 Kilohertz!

I think it says, somewhere in that paper, that even those with hf hearing loss react to those ultrasonic frequencies.

But ultrasonic still means ultrasonic: we can't hear it. But it affects us. Somehow.

Good to know this Thad. The irony is, we believe this ultrasound hearing thing only after a university in america certified it even though they also used human ears to measure it.

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

Dr Bass, thank you for your detailed reply. However I have two issues:

1) If your sample for this poll is predominantly made up of vinyl-philes (at times, even I count myself as one, though not consistently), you will perhaps get an opinion with more subjective content than is ideal. Perhaps the more objective way would be to measure the frequencies on a new disc of high quality pressing, and then do the same measurements on the same disc after it has been played 15-20 times. And of course, along the way, listen for differences also. That should put this matter to rest. I don't have the equipment (and perhaps the ears) to do it myself. if you come across any such test do post the link.

2) But why bother at all if the wear is uniform? I feel that we can look at a somewhat crude analogy here - if water flows for many years over a rock face, it becomes smoother and but does not lose its basic shape. Similarly, the wear on a record groove should be disproportionate more on the finer undulations than those pertaining to the sub-20khz notes. Eventually, the wear will (over a long time and if not played and maintained perfectly) impact the basic notes also. And theoretically, since the tracking force is not zero, and the hardness of the surface not infinite, there must be some wear.