Upgrading my CD Player

[sunder]

My experience is similar to yours and when I changed from Arcam to Ayre source with balanced connections, I find it much better. However, as you say, you need the rest of the chain also balanced, both your preamp and power amp.

But I have a question for you. You mentioned earlier having changed from Arcam CD-192 (which I also used) and your posts mention you are now using a Yamaha. At the same breath, you are saying you prefer and continue to use balanced connections. In my understanding, Arcam NEVER makes sources or amps with balanced inputs and outputs. In fact they have published white papers to substantiate their belief that modern players producing high voltage signals don't need balanced connections. I wonder whether your Yamaha has balanced connections. Can you please clarify???

cheers.
murali

Hi Murali, I have Arcam FMJ series Pre&Power which have balanced in&out.
regards.

 

[murali]

Hi Murali, I have Arcam FMJ series Pre&Power which have balanced in&out.
regards.

Thanks for the correction. The following is an article from Arcam website:

Quote:

Balanced audio
Principle Advantages of balanced Audio Connections
Balanced audio connections, usually using an XLR type connector can be found on numerous pieces of audio equipment. Both in the professional and consumer markets, these connections have been used in a variety of applications, mainly for good reason.

The main objective of a balanced connection is to reduce noise pickup. By using two signal connections twisted together and an earth or shield in the same cable the signal can be sent to the receiving device as both a positive going and negative going signal. Using this method the receiving device considers the input signal to be the difference between the two signals, for example if one signal is +1V and the other 1v then the input signal is considered to be +2V.

In a perfect world, the signals received are identical but a mirror image of each other. Thus the difference between can accurately represent the shape of an original signal. Sadly the world is not a perfect place!

In practice, using any analogue audio interface, electrical noise pickup is, to a degree, inevitable. However, with a perfect balanced connection this additional noise can be eliminated.

Simply put, any noise pick up is likely to be absorbed by both signal leads in a balanced cable in the same way, and most importantly, in phase with each other. This type of noise is called "common mode noise" since it is induced equally in both signal conductors. For example, if the noise that is induced causes a small rise in the voltage in one conductor it would cause a similar rise in the other conductor. For example, if the positive cable is at +1v then the negative cable will be 1v and the difference in signal level is 2v. If a noise of +0.1v is then induced in both cables the difference between them will still be 2v (+1.1v and 0.9v).

Remembering that the signal at the receiving end is judged by the difference in the two conductors, little or no change will be seen at the receiving end since the difference has not changed.

So what does this mean in practice for a domestic Hi-fi system?
Firstly, it should be pointed out that adding balanced connections, no matter how they are engineered, has a significant cost penalty. XLR connections and balanced output and input stages are significantly more expensive in parts cost than regular RCA / Phono type unbalanced connections. Therefore, if balanced audio connections are to be implemented we must be sure that they represent a useful improvement in overall sound quality or risk a poor value for money judgement.

Signal Level Considerations
The "noise cancelling" effect is very useful with small signals where any noise pickup will be of a proportionately higher value compared with the signal itself. To this end the most common use of balanced audio connections in the professional field is with microphones when maximum signal levels are typically as low as a mV or two (a mV or millivolt is one thousandth of a volt).

In a domestic hi-fi system microphones are not used and therefore we need to find out where small signals, susceptible to noise pickup are used. Speaker cables carry signals in the "several or tens of volts" range where noise pickup is irrelevantly small. So, it is the "line level" connection between source component and pre amp and from pre amp to power amp where balanced audio is most often found.

Firstly, let us be clear about what a "line level" signal actually is. The textbook definition, as far as it is, is "a signal of 775mV into a 600ohm load". In practice, however, modern CD players for example have an output of 2V or more. Bearing in mind that this represents fairly large signal in terms of any potential noise pickup, the arguments for using balanced audio connections here is highly debatable at best.

Between pre-amp and power amp the signal is actually markedly smaller than that between pre-amp and source since the volume control in the pre-amp can be consider an attenuator (unless it is set to maximum volume of course)! Therefore, in signal level terms the most useful place to use balanced connections is between pre-amp and source. Also, power amp gain is fixed and therefore any noise induced between the pre amp and power amp is more likely to be audible at normal listening levels.

Curiously, the most obvious application for balanced audio in a hi-fi system, between turntable and phono stage with signals of only a couple of hundred micro volts, is rarely if ever used.

Unquote:
I agree that Arcam's FMJ preamp and power amp have balanced connections. But please note that the preamp does not have balanced inputs for a CD source (correct me if I am wrong). Also, it appears that they have ditched the Wolfson DACs to Burr Brown in their latest products (correct me if I am wrong).

cheers.
murali

 

[tharun]

Hi Arj and ROC , The Ayon should be a good player , given the price. But my budget does not permit that CDP to be part of my System.,

Dinyaar , is there any Technical problems you have come across the MF A5 CDP? Why is that you dont recommend that MF.

Reg the CA 840 CDP , I will listen to it and then only I have to decide. I also have a Offer for a marantz SA11S1 , How different is a marantz SA11S1 from S2?

 

[arj]

Reg the CA 840 CDP , I will listen to it and then only I have to decide. I also have a Offer for a marantz SA11S1 , How different is a marantz SA11S1 from S2?

Tharun, the Marantz S1 is a pretty serious CD player. S2 is upgraded ..i believe with a better transport and DAC sections.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Arj and ROC , The Ayon should be a good player , given the price. But my budget does not permit that CDP to be part of my System.,

Dinyaar , is there any Technical problems you have come across the MF A5 CDP? Why is that you dont recommend that MF.

Reg the CA 840 CDP , I will listen to it and then only I have to decide. I also have a Offer for a marantz SA11S1 , How different is a marantz SA11S1 from S2?

Well the 11 S2 uses HDAM 3 as against HDAM 2 on the 11 S1. Have heard both and the S2 is definately better at a moderate price increase.

No technical problems on the MF that i am aware of. I dont like the MF cdps or their philosophy and I would stay away from them. Have heard quite a lot of MF and apart from the A 5.5 that I thought was decent, none of the cdps merit a BUY IMO.
Rgds

 

[tharun]

Hi , I was given a Benchmark DAC and a Marantz CD17Mk3 as a Loan for 4 months as my friend is going to Canada for a Project, Till then I am enjoying his system without any investment. :yahoo:
Mean while Today morning I auditioned the MF CDP and sound was decent, But could not come to any conclusion. Also heard a Bryston and again very good but the price
Tomorrow I will be listening to the CA 840 CDP and later this week will be auditioning the Primare and the Marantz SA s11.

Regards

 

[rikhav]

Hi Tharun
Good to know that you have a good source for the time being since you just have a DVD player to listen to your music
Now you dont need to hurry up your purchase. You can audition all the cdps you want and decide
Also you can tell that same friend of yours to check the price of the cdp you like in Canada. Maybe you can get great a deal provided your friend is good with customs

 

[tharun]

Hi Tharun
Good to know that you have a good source for the time being since you just have a DVD player to listen to your music
Now you dont need to hurry up your purchase. You can audition all the cdps you want and decide
Also you can tell that same friend of yours to check the price of the cdp you like in Canada. Maybe you can get great a deal provided your friend is good with customs

Yes Rikhav I have told him to look for the Bryston CDP , but i was told that the Brystons are very good in pre and Power but not in CDPs, I am also searching th net for the brands which are available in Canada and the dealers name and address, since I have enough time to do this , i think I can tell him a good place in Canada to buy a good CDP. And Customs , i dont know......... will check with them reg the duty and other things.

 

[rikhav]

Yes Rikhav I have told him to look for the Bryston CDP , but i was told that the Brystons are very good in pre and Power but not in CDPs, I am also searching th net for the brands which are available in Canada and the dealers name and address, since I have enough time to do this , i think I can tell him a good place in Canada to buy a good CDP. And Customs , i dont know......... will check with them reg the duty and other things.

Best bet would be to go try at ebay or audiogon. Mostly sellers give true information but then you cant be 100 percent sure. One out of 1000 can send you a bad piece. Also there will be payment issues as well. If you know someone who stays in Canada it will make things easy.
Your friend can search for a cdp in hifi stores as well. Many options and mostly all brands should have their presence there

There are 619 single disc players list on ebay as of now. So try your luck and see if you can find something you like

 

[arj]

Yes Rikhav I have told him to look for the Bryston CDP , but i was told that the Brystons are very good in pre and Power but not in CDPs, I am also searching th net for the brands which are available in Canada and the dealers name and address, since I have enough time to do this , i think I can tell him a good place in Canada to buy a good CDP. And Customs , i dont know......... will check with them reg the duty and other things.

If i remember right the transport section of the Bryston was measured to have a high jitter... and if you do buy a CDP please make sure it is a 230Jey_Ebron version...CDPs are extremely sensitive to power and a 120/220V stepup transformer will compromise the sound.

How did you find the Benchmark ?...when you compare try to compare the CDplayer with cdplayer used as transport and benchmark as a DAC too to see what you prefer.

it is my personal opinion but never buy CDPs from the web...because of the moving parts it is pretty risky from a warranty point of view ..as unlike the US returns are not so easy or cheap.

 

[dinyaar]

Yes Rikhav I have told him to look for the Bryston CDP , but i was told that the Brystons are very good in pre and Power but not in CDPs, I am also searching th net for the brands which are available in Canada and the dealers name and address, since I have enough time to do this , i think I can tell him a good place in Canada to buy a good CDP. And Customs , i dont know......... will check with them reg the duty and other things.

Well its not that a Co making 'good' amps cannot make a capable cdp. But this cdp seems, sounds & feels average so better to wait for better implementations from Bryston. I presume u know the famed 20 yr warranty does not apply to a CDP.
Can buy anything from Canada why only canadian products. Anyway canadian cdps are Moon, Classe, Bryston that I can come up with. Moon is available in bbay at very competetive prices so if interested check them out.
CHECK THE VOLTAGE BEFORE U BUY FROM ABROAD.
Rgds

 

[marsilians]

Best bet would be to go try at ebay or audiogon. Mostly sellers give true information but then you cant be 100 percent sure. One out of 1000 can send you a bad piece. Also there will be payment issues as well. If you know someone who stays in Canada it will make things easy.
Your friend can search for a cdp in hifi stores as well. Many options and mostly all brands should have their presence there

There are 619 single disc players list on ebay as of now. So try your luck and see if you can find something you like

I would stay away from flea bay completely. Too many fake items and buying/selling of electronic components is a big gamble. I cannot imagine an owner of a decent CD player putting it on ebay since he/she can always trade in at the audio store they purchased for a newer one.

 

[marsilians]

Hi Arj and ROC , The Ayon should be a good player , given the price. But my budget does not permit that CDP to be part of my System.,

Dinyaar , is there any Technical problems you have come across the MF A5 CDP? Why is that you dont recommend that MF.

Reg the CA 840 CDP , I will listen to it and then only I have to decide. I also have a Offer for a marantz SA11S1 , How different is a marantz SA11S1 from S2?

What is yoru budget and are you open to tube CD players? If not, you may also want to look at a Naim if budget allows.

From yoru quote, are you looking for SACD players or pure bred CDPs.

Finally, if your friend can bring back a player from Canada, some brands to consider are Simaudio (moon series), YBA, Ayre and Cary

 

[tharun]

What is yoru budget and are you open to tube CD players? If not, you may also want to look at a Naim if budget allows.

From yoru quote, are you looking for SACD players or pure bred CDPs.

Finally, if your friend can bring back a player from Canada, some brands to consider are Simaudio (moon series), YBA, Ayre and Cary

I am looking for a pure CDP , but if it plays SACD without disturbing the quality of CD , then its fine for me. My Budget is max 1 LAC not a penny more.
I am not yet sure if my friend can help me by bringing the CDP , will have to check it . if i get a good offer in India , I will buy here itself and save the trouble of customs and service backup.
Yes Tube CDP is also fine for me, but not stuffs like Cayin or vincenthyeah:

Tharun

 

[rikhav]

Hi Tharun
Not sure about the pricing but Ayon has come up with an entry level cd player according to their standards :lol:


CD-07 : Ayon Audio

You can check the prices with Sridhar if it is available in India and also the Canada prices just to compare

 

[odyssey]

Hi Tharun
Not sure about the pricing but Ayon has come up with an entry level cd player according to their standards :lol:


CD-07 : Ayon Audio

You can check the prices with Sridhar if it is available in India and also the Canada prices just to compare

Hi, its a new release, we dont have it as yet. When we do get it, it should be same/very close to US price.

cheers

 

[tharun]

Tharun................my suggestion for you is to go for primare.its a amazing brand though slightly expensive.forget the dac way, go for a dedicated cdp.since you are planning to upgrade your amp too, the best way to partner is primare i30.i have had this combo and enjoyed it with great deal.if budget permits get the nordost cables and pulsar points.primare' guys are diehard fans of nordost...........:clapping:

Yes reddy , the Primare is top on the list as of now. I have not heard it though , Have heard the Cyrus and liked the sound so assuming the primare will sound some what near/ better to the Cyrus 8SE . Another CDP I am considering is the Marantz SA s11

 

[marsilians]

I am looking for a pure CDP , but if it plays SACD without disturbing the quality of CD , then its fine for me. My Budget is max 1 LAC not a penny more.
I am not yet sure if my friend can help me by bringing the CDP , will have to check it . if i get a good offer in India , I will buy here itself and save the trouble of customs and service backup.
Yes Tube CDP is also fine for me, but not stuffs like Cayin or vincenthyeah:

Tharun

In an effort to not disappoint you, here are my suggestions for CDPs in your range (no Vincent or Jolida )

Simaudio Moon
Cary 303T or 308T (check the tube version out)
Sony ES Series CD/SACD players
Ayre CX-7eMP

These are about 1 lac range

 

[sidvee]

Guys - What about the Raysonic Cd players - heard them in a few audio shows in the states and they were sounding sweet.
Cheers
Sid

 

[odyssey]

My 2 cents here - if I may?

Ayon CD1s will still overtake the above IMO with the excellent implementation of the 6H30 tubes, running in Class-A circuitry. But I also feel the real Ayon strengths start to show up at the CD2 level.

Any comments < odyssey > on this, being a better judge?

@audio_engr
the CD-2 is surely better - better all around with more defined bass (as well as speed), better extension, nicer microdynamics, blacker background. Most of this was confirmed by Sameer who went from the CD 1 to CD 2.

@sidvee
the Raysonic was sold in India for a brief time (distributor in Mumbai), however he has discontinued it, not sure why.

cheers