Valve amplifiers

[thevortex]

In trawling around the internet, I got this bit of information about possible sound signatures of different tubes. What do the tube aficionados make of this? Do they concur?
------------------------
EL84 / 6p1 - sweet and smooth and not so dynamic
EL34 - quite balance on sweet and dynamic
6L6 / 5881 / KT66 - similiar to EL34, but personally i find them more punchy
KT88 - powerful and dynamic, yet controlled, but burns really hot
845 / 2A3 / 300B - SET (single ended triode), again with its own characters, all also very hot tubes, no need to burn room heaters if using these

------------------------

 

[anm]

I hope you have talked to Viren over phone already

 

[thevortex]

I hope you have talked to Viren over phone already

Right on cue! I just did. And it was highly informative. No wonder Viren is a very busy man - given the quality of his valve amps. He has given me a lot to ponder and hopefully soon I will get comfortable enough to go pick a valve amplifier up.

 

[GeorgeO]

It's not difficult to make out he difference. I disconnected my2A3 amp and connected my 55wpc ss power amp yesterday to my FR and after a little while i couldn't listen to it any more. I reconnected it.I have a valve preamp which I planned to connect but decided against it. I plan to connect up the ss power amp + valve preamp to my two ways sometime and check it out-the two ways use Scanspeaks and need a bit more juice than the 2A3s.

The point that was made in a recent post is correct-all the links need to match, otherwise they don't generate the proper synergy.

George

Hi rajiv,

what speakers have you paired with the amp? I would love to hear a tube which i have never done. Are they lyritas too? They say tubes have a different signature from SS. But don't know if my ears good enough to pick the nuances.

cheers,
sri

 

[thevortex]

In trawling around the internet, I got this bit of information about possible sound signatures of different tubes. What do the tube aficionados make of this? Do they concur?
------------------------
EL84 / 6p1 - sweet and smooth and not so dynamic
EL34 - quite balance on sweet and dynamic
6L6 / 5881 / KT66 - similiar to EL34, but personally i find them more punchy
KT88 - powerful and dynamic, yet controlled, but burns really hot
845 / 2A3 / 300B - SET (single ended triode), again with its own characters, all also very hot tubes, no need to burn room heaters if using these

------------------------

Well, I was hoping people using tubes may notice this and lend their experience to this point. Any takers?

 

[Asit]

Hi Vortex,

Oh, sorry, I did not realize you wanted feedback from tube owners. Well, your research says the EL84 valves are smooth and sweet but not so dynamic. Well, I do not know about that. My Leben CS300 uses EL84 tubes, and not expensive ones. The sound is smooth alright, more neutral than sweet. At the same time it is incredibly dynamic. If you look at all pro and user reviews and discussions of this amp, the one attribute that everybody says about this amp is the dynamics among many other things. That's why I still tend to believe it's first the design and implementation and then everything else. Until a couple of years ago, this amp had a premium version known as the CS300X with expensive Mullard EL84 valves and other more expensive components. However, there is no definite conclusion about the superiority of the CS300X over the original CS300 regarding SQ, proving that expensive components including more expensive valves do not necessarily mean better quality.

Regards.

PS: At some point, I'd like to do some tube rolling if it's not too expensive. Would seek opinions from experts like Rajiv (he did already suggest some valves in my amp thread).

 

[GeorgeO]

Listening to valve gear for the "valve sound" and tube rolling are both quite different. Rolling can be very expensive since the range of options is very varied.You have entry levels valves, high quality(expensive ) valves, and NOS(new old stock) valves which can sometimes cost more than the amp. You have Chines, Russian, European and Indian valves. In many pp amps , matched tubes are recommended.

Most of these are not available locally so you have to source them from overseas-cost tim, convenience factors come into play! Bottom line, first get the amp, then look at rolling!

George

 

[arj]

Well, I was hoping people using tubes may notice this and lend their experience to this point. Any takers?

the vortex, I am fully with GeorgeO above. It is not just the tube per se but the design which is critical...and the sound will define the sonic signature. eg I really do not think EL84s lack dyanmism but some implementation of it might. IN the end the amp designer did have something in his/her mind when designing around a specific tube.

so makes sense first to choose an Amp which meets the sound ideally with stock tubes which are right for you. you can then think about improving the sound further via rolling. there is anrough tube lore on the net and forums to give you some feel of what to try. good tubes cost $$$

 

[stevieboy]

In trawling around the internet, I got this bit of information about possible sound signatures of different tubes. What do the tube aficionados make of this? Do they concur?
------------------------
EL84 / 6p1 - sweet and smooth and not so dynamic
EL34 - quite balance on sweet and dynamic
6L6 / 5881 / KT66 - similiar to EL34, but personally i find them more punchy
KT88 - powerful and dynamic, yet controlled, but burns really hot
845 / 2A3 / 300B - SET (single ended triode), again with its own characters, all also very hot tubes, no need to burn room heaters if using these

------------------------

grin GRIN quite a can of worms this is i've found the el84 to be quite hard hitting and bluesy. with a raspy bite to it. kt 88 is dynamic yes, more powerful sounding than the el34. the 2A3 and 45 run hot but not very hot to the extent of not using room heaters hehe. the 845 will run far hotter than the 2A3 or 45 tube.

edit: i think you've got hold of only a few points, that too controversial/generic ones like dynamism. what you need to find if the sound characteristic of a particular tube, something almost everyone agrees on. eg everybody will agree that between an 845 and a 2A3, the 2A3 sounds more intimate/seductive and the 845 sounds expansive. you need to figure out these tube characteristics. then after this, amp build will come into play. comparing the same tube, one could be more dynamic than another, but there's no way any amp designer can make a certain tube sound like another tube.

 

[GeorgeO]

Vortex:

I didnt add one more point-the price tag.

A set of quad KT 88s will cost twice that of EL 34s, while 6550 are mid way. 300bs are not cheap, neither are 2A3s. In addition prices of different brands will also vary significantly pricewise-JJ, TJ, Svetlana, Sovtek, Shuguang, Sophia, GE, Brimar, Kenrad,Mullard etc, etc. Once you start down the path you will get to know more, so I wont confuse you any more at this time..

George

 

[thevortex]

Thank you George, arj and Stevie. I have been troubling Viren quite a lot over phone and he did mention some of these points.

I also could not resist a bit of what I thought might be window-shopping in browsing through a lot of ebay listings. How in the world are those prices justified?!!! This was my reaction as well as Viren's. I wont deny that the prices are extremely tempting though. Does anybody have experience in dealing with valve amps purchased online?

That said I do have a mortal fear of buying audio equipment blind. Without any audition.

Lastly I realize that those single line statements may not do adequate justice to any of those tubes. I just could not find other such information which tried to combine and compare various tubes' sound signatures.

Does anybody have an idea about how the EL156's sound?

 

[srikarkav]

Hi vortex,

I think like me, you love Marantz too. Take a look at this. I wonder how it will sound today.
MARANTZ MODEL 2 TUBE TYPE VINTAGE AMPLIFIER, EXTRA RARE - eBay (item 270449948391 end time Sep-06-09 21:36:27 PDT)

cheers,
sri

 

[thevortex]

Hi vortex,

I think like me, you love Marantz too. Take a look at this. I wonder how it will sound today.
MARANTZ MODEL 2 TUBE TYPE VINTAGE AMPLIFIER, EXTRA RARE - eBay (item 270449948391 end time Sep-06-09 21:36:27 PDT)

cheers,
sri

I do love the Marantz sound, Sri! Thanks for the link. eBay confuses the hell out of me. I dont know whether to think thats a great deal or to just close the page quickly before I make the wrong decision.

At the same time, I have no problems ordering stuff such as a laptop from eBay. It is just that I have a somewhat better understanding of that item as compared to a valve amplifier

 

[srikarkav]

Yes i know buying blind is like playing roulette. I can understand your anxiety.
I know nothing about tubes. Not to mention very little about SS too:lol:
But if you liked viren's amp why cant you go for it? And if you buy a tube should you have to buy a single driver speaker too?

cheers,
sri

 

[thevortex]

Yes i know buying blind is like playing roulette. I can understand your anxiety.
I know nothing about tubes. Not to mention very little about SS too:lol:
But if you liked viren's amp why cant you go for it? And if you buy a tube should you have to buy a single driver speaker too?

cheers,
sri

No, Sri, I have heard Viren's amp at Rajiv's place driving my speakers to satisfaction. At least for music. So, no question about new speakers.

I am in touch with Viren too and I will be having another audition of his tube amp in another couple of months and then see how it goes.

 

[arj]

I do love the Marantz sound, Sri! Thanks for the link. eBay confuses the hell out of me. I dont know whether to think thats a great deal or to just close the page quickly before I make the wrong decision.

At the same time, I have no problems ordering stuff such as a laptop from eBay. It is just that I have a somewhat better understanding of that item as compared to a valve amplifier

Looking at the current price, I would stay away from these unless you are handy with modifying electronics Or want to start now.

So hit that X button while you still can and Ebay can get you into a bid frenzy !

 

[thevortex]

Looking at the current price, I would stay away from these unless you are handy with modifying electronics Or want to start now.

So hit that X button while you still can and Ebay can get you into a bid frenzy !

ARJ - yes a bit of caution would be advisable. However, when you get some time do visit the Integrated amplifiers section at eBay. The mind boggles at the prices and specifications. Maybe experts can make out differences and separate the chaff from the grain..

 

[GeorgeO]

A serious problem that we people living in India face with respect to buying many overseas items is that we cannot check it out, and our options to,say, audition are very limited. Accordingly, I rely heavily on feedback or try to get in touch either with people who have bought or with people who are experienced and knowledgeable, and get feedback from them. That minimizes the risk of buying a lemon.

Fortunately, like this forum, there are many people who are happy to share their knowledge.

 

[thevortex]

A serious problem that we people living in India face with respect to buying many overseas items is that we cannot check it out, and our options to,say, audition are very limited. Accordingly, I rely heavily on feedback or try to get in touch either with people who have bought or with people who are experienced and knowledgeable, and get feedback from them. That minimizes the risk of buying a lemon.

Fortunately, like this forum, there are many people who are happy to share their knowledge.

George - what are your thoughts on an EL156 tube? I have seen from your posts that you have KT88s which are, I believe, related to the 156. And yes, this forum is invaluable. I might never have known tubes as anything other than exotic somethings which are nice, showy and of vintage value. Of vintage value they sure are, but now I understand the appeal as well.

 

[GeorgeO]

Vortex

I owned a KT 88 PP(Melody) amp and it was good-punchy, powered my 87dB speakers to very high levels very comfortably but ran hot. I dont know if it was because of the design, or whether the JJs ran naturally hot(unlikely)! Since I had too many amps, and very little space-this was a year ago, and before I joined this forum, I sold it off(for 38K, BTW).I had a huge bunch of spare valves also which came with it which also went along with it.

My philosophy is to use mainstream valves, which are easily available and dont cost too much. EL 34s fall into this category, KT 88s dont-a quad set will cost at least $150-170 for JJs-supposedly the best KT 88s now, against half that price for EL 34s.

Re EL 156-which amps use these valves? It is easier to do some research with this info. I haven't heard any amp using these-the mainstream mfrs use the more commonly used valves that I mentioned in an earlier post. Also apart from Shuguang, who else currently makes these valves?

George