Why Chi-Fi Matters And Can No longer be Used in a Pejorative Sense

I fully agree sir..I abandoned any thoughts of converting anyone to my fold a long time back. And I will not comment further on the subject.

Iam planning on posting a "Foundation theory of audio" as propagated by Nordost and Ansuz, So all foo and cable lovers and haters alike can head there for some spirited weekend arguments. And lets leave politics to the politicians :p
That would be a brilliant segue 😄
But wait, Are there any good chifi cable brands? 😎
 
That would be a brilliant segue 😄
But wait, Are there any good chifi cable brands? 😎
Haha....glad your goodselves asked :p . Xangsane makes some incredible cables as per user reviews. And as per some, one has to go very expensive with the main stream brands to beat them. Especially the silver coated or sterling silver cables from Xangsane come well recommended :)

They are available on aliexpress, but there are tons of fakes there. So best to buy directly from their below website :

 
Happy Mother's Day.
Bharat Mata Ki Jai.
I'm proud of our Golden Heritage.
We are the pioneers in sound engineering.
Just preceding your post was a post from @Analogous requesting for posts to be kept on topic aka Audio Equipment. We'd do well to heed that request and keep the jingoism (for that, there's always WhatsApp) out of this forum. As is, in this election season we've getting enough of trash spewed - don't need more.
 
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Haha....glad your goodselves asked :p . Xangsane makes some incredible cables as per user reviews. And as per some, one has to go very expensive with the main stream brands to beat them. Especially the silver coated or sterling silver cables from Xangsane come well recommended :)

They are available on aliexpress, but there are tons of fakes there. So best to buy directly from their below website :

Thanks. First I am hearing of this brand. Affordable prices too.
Is it possible to order it from this site and have it delivered to India?
 

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I strongly disagree. I have been dealing with Chi-fi for years now and while there are some brands which are genuinely good, the others just don't hold up well in the long run. Your argument regarding ChiFi using small amounts of resources in comparison to the western brands is simply not true. ChiFi brands are much more cunning and they advertise in more shrewd ways. Reviewers are bought off, they are constantly sent free review units in return of positive ratings. The moment you put out even a lukewarm review they will threaten to cut off supply of future review units. And this is a big no no as it will jeopardize a reviewer's livelihood as they earn money by selling review units. The iem and headphone market has been flooded by chifi and almost all of them are wrought with driver failures, channel imbalances, absolutely horrid tuning and terrible customer service. Which brings me to the next point: they pay truckloads to dealers to promote their subpar stuff, and should you need any service in the future you have to go through them which in turn is another pain. The biggest headphone brand from China- Hifiman has utter garbage build quality and choice of materials are terrible that don't even last 3 years. Even if they do they look like something that survived a nuclear fallout. They "collaborate" with reviewers to come out with custom tunings so as to appease said reviewers' audience target. They only care about one thing- MOVE UNITS. And not to mention they post false specs (mostly about power ratings) and mislead the audience. Topping headphone amps are infamous for frying headphones (which they have now fixed), quoting obscene (and misleading) power output figures. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I review myself (by no means a full timer) and I have friends who also review chifi stuff (mainly iems, hp amps, dacs etc) and even they have shared the same experience. There is more to a product than a fancy heavy metal chassis filled with (gimmicky) "features".
Their headphone amps are all about putting a million op-amps in parallel and then applying a crap ton of negative feedback for it to measure good- cause that's what they care. They need ASR's approval. I have used such said amps from Topping and SMSL and while they do work, they sound either very thin and sterile or extremely boring. Their designs are primitive usually.
That being said, they have nailed DACs for sure. Which is saying something! So, credit where credit is due!
And regarding indian brands not holding a candle to anything that came out of China is just a hilarious statement. Out of all the indian brands I have encountered, most of them are very positive and much more soundly designed with proper support. The chinese historically haven't done anything innovative in audio and neither did India, it all came from the west. As you said, they are best at "reverse engineering" (read: copy, or cheaply mimic). You cannot buy innovation, that is why they buy off the companies and the rest is history (case in point: tannoy).
That being said, there are a few brands like Fiio for example who are totally transparent and honest in what they market. I am not saying they are the only company from China to do that, there are some good serious brands out there as well (like the ones you have mentioned). But they are uncommon, and in the grand scheme of things ChiFi is not to be trusted.
You've made my point for me.

I began my post by listing the things they aren't good at (speakers, solid state amplification components, analogue sources, cabling, and no technological innovation.) I'm not a headphones guy, but for the purpose of my argument, I suppose these can be treated as speakers, which, as I said, the Chinese don't quite excel at. You've gone over all of these in your reply.

As for the strong-arm tactics that you mention, that too is a point I made - albeit without using strong terminology; they've grown their marketing chops considerably, using some of the methods you've described (but that's not all they've done by way of pushing their products). And, to add, this is by no means confined to how the Chinese operate.

As for Made in India gear, I'm afraid I can't buy your argument for the sector - I'm happy to reconsider if you list homemade brands that can go up against the ones I've mentioned; Denafrips, Line Magnetic, LHY, Holo Audio, Lumin (and the older ones other forum members brought up).

My remarks have nothing whatsoever to do with being anti-India. In fact, my political beliefs are entirely contrary to how the PRC functions, but they don't stop me from buying their gear because what they (the brands I mentioned) sell meets my expectations - and they aren't the subject of what I wrote because I don't believe this is the forum for those kinds of conversations; I wrote the post as an audiophile, not an ideologue. I'd be glad to shift allegiance to equipment produced on the sub-continent if it meets the criteria contained in my post.
 
Just preceding your post was a post from @Analogous requesting for posts to be kept on topic aka Audio Equipment. We'd do well to heed that request and keep the jingoism (for that, there's always WhatsApp) out of this forum. As is, in this election season we've getting enough of trash spewed - don't need more.
That's it.
Better to close my account and leave,
than to be tossed aside like trash.

Jai Hind.
 
That's it.
Better to close my account and leave,
than to be tossed aside like trash.
Definitely not. We are all here because we share enthusiasm for matters audio. If we avoid political discussions here everyone can share, learn, discuss and have fun here.

Found this old post on Audigon:
“Zhongsan ShengYa Technological Co. Ltd maintains a modern twenty thousand square meter factory in Zhongshan, Guangdong and has been in operation since 1991. In 1995 the company broke into the European market with the establishment of Vincent Audio (Germany) with products under this brand subsequently gaining credibility through endorsement of HiFi magazines, most notably Stereophile who recently issued a B rating for the Vincent Tubeline SV-236MK integrated a very close derivative of the Sheng Ya A10 CS amplifier. While assembled in the same factory, Vincent models sell for prices around four times higher than Sheng Ya. The Sheng Ya amplifier is advertised by Cattylink as being a Vincent SV-236MK though this is not strictly correct.”
 
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Found this old post on Audigon:
“Zhongsan ShengYa Technological Co. Ltd maintains a modern twenty thousand square meter factory in Zhongshan, Guangdong and has been in operation since 1991. In 1995 the company broke into the European market with the establishment of Vincent Audio (Germany) with products under this brand subsequently gaining credibility through endorsement of HiFi magazines, most notably Stereophile who recently issued a B rating for the Vincent Tubeline SV-236MK integrated a very close derivative of the Sheng Ya A10 CS amplifier. While assembled in the same factory, Vincent models sell for prices around four times higher than Sheng Ya. The Sheng Ya amplifier is advertised by Cattylink as being a Vincent SV-236MK though this is not strictly correct.”
I have been reading quite a handful on Vincent and Shengya in a lot of forums since I was interested in a particular model. Although some of their models do have semblances with Shengya models, they both are different companies.
But the fact is, that a lot of Vincent's are manufactured in China which are robust and have lasted for years(especially their recent models) from what I have read on the forums as per owner feedbacks. While a few are manufactured in Germany. Vincent seems like an underrated brand with good quality control for the price. In fact some users have even compared them with Cambridge Audio Edge, Mccintosh and even Luxman for their vfm.
Vincent is owned by Sintron, Germany with Frank Blöhbaum as the chief designer for hybrid amps.

 
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I have been reading quite a handful on Vincent and Shengya in a lot of forums since I was interested in a particular model. Although some of their models do have semblances with Shengya models, they both are different companies.
But the fact is, that a lot of Vincent's are manufactured in China which are robust and have lasted for years(especially their recent models) from what I have read on the forums as per owner feedbacks. While a few are manufactured in Germany. Vincent seems like an underrated brand with good quality control for the price. In fact some users have even compared them with Cambridge Audio Edge, Mccintosh and even Luxman for their vfm.
Vincent is owned by Sintron, Germany with Frank Blöhbaum as the chief designer for hybrid amps.

I think the audigon post I quoted was mistaken in his statement that Vincent Sudio was started by Shengaya.
 
I think the audigon post I quoted was mistaken in his statement that Vincent Sudio was started by Shengaya.
Vincent was started by Sintron in 1995 .

Shengya, if I am not mistaken started in 1991 by a husband and wife team and has really risen a lot. (Courtesy google search).
 
If Indian audio equipment brands want to be competitive with those from other countries like China or the west, then the first thing they need to do is to actually publish the prices of their equipment t on their website. When a buyer is comparison shopping, the most annoying thing for him is that when he visits many Indian brand websites, they will never mention the prices, we need to call them or email them to know the prices. Why this secrecy for selling consumer electronics?it just doesn't make sense to me
 
If Indian audio equipment brands want to be competitive with those from other countries like China or the west, then the first thing they need to do is to actually publish the prices of their equipment t on their website. When a buyer is comparison shopping, the most annoying thing for him is that when he visits many Indian brand websites, they will never mention the prices, we need to call them or email them to know the prices. Why this secrecy for selling consumer electronics?it just doesn't make sense to me
Modesty, reticence and secrecy may be in our DNA? Or is it something else like volatility in our stock markets?
There must be a reason for this behaviour…
 
If Indian audio equipment brands want to be competitive with those from other countries like China or the west, then the first thing they need to do is to actually publish the prices of their equipment t on their website. When a buyer is comparison shopping, the most annoying thing for him is that when he visits many Indian brand websites, they will never mention the prices, we need to call them or email them to know the prices. Why this secrecy for selling consumer electronics?it just doesn't make sense to me
Usually big brands buy parts in huge numbers, including stocks for future repairs. So they have a firm number of stock for each production run at a certain price. When the production run ends, if there is an escalation in part prices, then prices of kit are increased. Though this offsets short price escalations, this leads to higher pricing as the interest rates on all hoarded parts have to be factored into the final pricing. Plus, they will be left with huge inventories if the sales dont match their market research.

However, our local manufacturer's are mostly building on a order basis, with no stock piles of inventories. So they are very exposed to volatility in part prices. Hence, the need to keep revising prices every few days as their suppliers keep updating on the revised part prices. So their prices are lower, which is what we all want eventually, but fluctuating. Hence, they cannot post firm prices on their sites I suppose.
 
Usually big brands buy parts in huge numbers, including stocks for future repairs. So they have a firm number of stock for each production run at a certain price. When the production run ends, if there is an escalation in part prices, then prices of kit are increased. Though this offsets short price escalations, this leads to higher pricing as the interest rates on all hoarded parts have to be factored into the final pricing. Plus, they will be left with huge inventories if the sales dont match their market research.

However, our local manufacturer's are mostly building on an order basis, with no stock piles of inventories. So they are very exposed to volatility in part prices. Hence, the need to keep revising prices every few days as their suppliers keep updating on the revised part prices. So their prices are lower, which is what we all want eventually, but fluctuating. Hence, they cannot post firm prices on their sites I suppose.
Reading this, I am wondering if this “stocking up for the future “, (given the high customs duties on imports in India) could be one reason why Indian manufacturers find it a challenge to go big and compete with international brands?
 
Usually big brands buy parts in huge numbers, including stocks for future repairs. So they have a firm number of stock for each production run at a certain price. When the production run ends, if there is an escalation in part prices, then prices of kit are increased. Though this offsets short price escalations, this leads to higher pricing as the interest rates on all hoarded parts have to be factored into the final pricing. Plus, they will be left with huge inventories if the sales dont match their market research.

However, our local manufacturer's are mostly building on a order basis, with no stock piles of inventories. So they are very exposed to volatility in part prices. Hence, the need to keep revising prices every few days as their suppliers keep updating on the revised part prices. So their prices are lower, which is what we all want eventually, but fluctuating. Hence, they cannot post firm prices on their sites I suppose.
Even large brands like Sonodyne and Norge don't publish prices and this companies don't make custom made goods. So I don't think this can be the reason. On the other hand in other countries even small companies which make custom made audio products publish their prices, prices can always be revised up or down depending on raw material inputs at that time. So I don't think the reason for not publishing prices has anything to do with buying parts in bulk.
 
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