Why tube amps?

[ajay124]

Ajay, Add Cayin, Montille to the list.

I've added some more amps to the list,although many of them may not be available in India.Earlier this year I had got in touch with a dealer in Kolkata who was stocking Cayin but have forgotten his name.SKS Traders?
Checked out Montille and Shindo Labs on the net.Nice.One thing can be said with a great deal of certainty!That Tube Amps are definitely far more attractive looking than SS Amps.Check out these beauties!
6moons audio reviews: Octave HP 500SE & V80
6moons audio reviews: Jeff Day's Music Lovers Series - RoadTour 1, Exit Pitch Perfect Audio
conrad-johnson Premier 11
SoundStage! Equipment Review - Lamm Industries ML3 Signature Mono Amplifiers (9/2008)
6moons audio reviews: Hyperion HT-88 Monos
Stereophile: McIntosh MC 275 Commemorative power amplifier
Like reading 6Moon reviews for the great pictures and atmosphere they create.
LOGO on a tube amp site...Solid State Make Sense Tubes Make Music!

 

[malvai]

My biggest problem with tubes (and this is very personal to me, anyone may have differing ideas...) is the fact that since different tubes have different sound signatures, what is it that i am listening to? I prefer neutral setups. It is a personal quest to get sound that the artist wanted to convey.... An impossibility of sorts, but at least many SS setups allow you to come as close to that as possible.

 

[gobble]

My biggest problem with tubes (and this is very personal to me, anyone may have differing ideas...) is the fact that since different tubes have different sound signatures, what is it that i am listening to? I prefer neutral setups. It is a personal quest to get sound that the artist wanted to convey.... An impossibility of sorts, but at least many SS setups allow you to come as close to that as possible.

What if the original performance had tube microphone amps and tubes in the mixer/recording equipment?

Cheers

 

[malvai]

What if the original performance had tube microphone amps and tubes in the mixer/recording equipment?

Cheers

See bro, then the equipment needs to reproduce that tone... And my SS gear does that to a fault! It doesn't sweeten the raw stuff and reproduces the sweet stuff without making it gooey!

 

[gobble]

See bro, then the equipment needs to reproduce that tone... And my SS gear does that to a fault! It doesn't sweeten the raw stuff and reproduces the sweet stuff without making it gooey!

Hmm I'll ask the other SS fans then ... Sugar anyone? hyeah: :licklips:

Cheers

 

[ajay124]

Tube Watt's v/s Transistor Watt's.
How relevant are power ratings with tube amps?What would be the equivalent of a good 200WPC/4Ohms OF SS in Tube's?
I feel that with 250 WPC at 4 Ohms the Bryston 3B SST has the firepower to drive my Vienna Acoustic's with ease.The huge scale of a Mahler symphony finally sounds convincing.
I feel confident that a sub 200 K valve amp would sound lovely with Ella Fitzgerald or a Miles Davis.But would it be able to handle the orchestral works of Mahler?
'Imagine the universe beginning to sing,not just human voices but all the planets and the suns'--Gustav Mahler
Symphonies from the classical period...Mozart/Haydn and even Beethoven 'managed'with 50-80 musicians.But a full strength orchestra for a Mahler Symphony may be 150+! Would a valve amp be able to handle the shifting dynamics of such an orchestra?

 

[moktan]

i don't have much idea about real hifi....but i kind of feel, expecting one set up with a given set of components , to do full justice to all kinds of music would be chasing a pipe dream..if money and space are no constraints (to a reasonable degree) then why not go for different combination of gear for different types of music...

 

[psychotropic]

this is exactly the difference. SS fans prioritise fidelity and tube fans prioritise pleasing sound (of course with variations and overlaps). Both these approaches have something to recommend them.

Who is to say that I don't want even my worst recordings to sound lovely? At the same time who is to say i don't want my worst recordings to sound exactly as they were when recorded?

In this gloriously subjective world of music reproduction, there can't possibly be any hard and fast rules, and there will always be different flavours preferred by different people.

I suppose if one can afford it, one should have one tube setup and one SS setup so one can switch according to moods.

See bro, then the equipment needs to reproduce that tone... And my SS gear does that to a fault! It doesn't sweeten the raw stuff and reproduces the sweet stuff without making it gooey!

 

[marsilians]

I have 3 types of amps - tube, SS and hybrid. (tube pre and SS pro). However in my experience, the effects of tubes or SS is predominantly dependent on the source material, transport, and speakers. Some may chime in about cables etc but thats not to the same extent as the above.

With these, I have experienced the following:

For dynamics and power, there is nothing that is better than SS.

For soundstage, tonality and warmth, there is nothing better than tubes.

For a best combination (with some leeway), hybrids are excellent as they give the tonality and warmth as a pre with tubes and have the dynamics and power of the SS power amp.

So, all in all, its a matter of choice. For low level and extended listening, I prefer tubes as its very pleasing to listen to and for dynamics in short doses I prefer SS.

 

[sidvee]

I have 3 types of amps - tube, SS and hybrid. (tube pre and SS pro). However in my experience, the effects of tubes or SS is predominantly dependent on the source material, transport, and speakers. Some may chime in about cables etc but thats not to the same extent as the above.

With these, I have experienced the following:

For dynamics and power, there is nothing that is better than SS.

For soundstage, tonality and warmth, there is nothing better than tubes.

For a best combination (with some leeway), hybrids are excellent as they give the tonality and warmth as a pre with tubes and have the dynamics and power of the SS power amp.

So, all in all, its a matter of choice. For low level and extended listening, I prefer tubes as its very pleasing to listen to and for dynamics in short doses I prefer SS.

I agree unequivocally with Marsilians - that is my exact perception of the difference between tube and ss. Most of my listening tastes are mostly tilted to the golden age of Jazz (early 60's)and I pretty much prefer tubes exclusively to listen to this music, but during the hot summers of Hyd. and when I do feel the need to listen to small doses of rock I shift to a SS amp.
cheers
Sid

 

[arj]

in my somewhat limited experience with tubes/SS the only difference I could make out was Power.

If my speakers need power (30W or more) i would prefer a SS as the tubes will lose the slam and the dynamics
If my speakers are efficient and sensitive and need less than 20-30W overall and with no impedence nasties, the tubes will give all that and except for the really sophisticated and low power, most SS amps will sound harsh and uninvolving

generically i dont think the difference is between Tubes and SS but between designs. ie a tube can be made to sound"SS" and vice versa. As an example my earlier sugden A21 pure calss A SS (Single ended) amp was more like the Tube sound and my current tube Leben CS600 (with russian reflecter 6l6GC equivalent tubes) is more like a "SS" sound

In Hybrids I might actualy prefer a SS pre and a tube Power as one fact i coluld glean about tubes is that when they distort they do that harmonically and for SS..they are more accurate to the signal..especially low level signals but their distortion is more third harmonic and harsh.


But in the end it is about the speakers and how much power they need.

 

[viren bakhshi]

Hi,

Its all about music!

Music has colour lots of it. Nary a primary note in nature. But sounds that are alive with harmonics, with texture, with intonation, with nuance. Sounds that are harmonious, and that are discordant. Sounds that whisper, and ones that overwhelm. Voices that beckon us, and ones that make us retreat in fear.

Music has all this, and the ability to create new ones. Again, sounds rich in texture. Colour that is inherent, and colour that is embellished.

All that colour should be celebrated. We should revel in it. And we should seek music systems that do that for us!

Listen to music as it is being played. Then listen to music systems that replay that. You listen, you decide, which system takes you closer to the music!

Regards,
Viren

 

[hifiashok]

Trying to list valve amps available/not available in India:
Ayon Orion/Spirit 2/Leben CS300/600--ARN
Pathos Classic One/Logos--Audio People
Unison Research Unico 100/200--Sound & Vision
Cadence VA 1.0--Cadence
2A3 SET/EL84 SET--Lyrita
Audio Research--Audio Vision?
Cary Audio--J & B Sound?
Quad 2 Classic/QC 24P--Designer Audio?
Jadis/Fatman--Lakozy?
Octave/CJ--Sound of Music?
Cayin?
Prima Luna--None
VTL--None
Hyperion--None
Lamm--None
Mcintosh--None

Rethm has not listed any amps on their website but I believe they too offer valve amps.
Did I miss some brands?I have never followed up with the relevant dealers about what they actually have in stock.
I am sure plenty of folks on the forum would have auditioned some of these.So could they please provide inputs about performance,speakers paired with,models,prices etc.

Cadence 'Canasya' Monoblocks. 4*845 PC based, 200W.

there is a manufacturer in south india, mr. siva if i am not wrong, who also uses 2*EL34 and 2*845 (PC) in his tube amps. i forget the moniker of the company.

virenji (Lyrita Audio) seems to be finalising a 1*845 PC based monoblock.

Edit: The moniker of the company is 'Acoustic Portrait'.

 

[CLEARCUT]

Good quality and carefully built up tube amplifier with good components will NEVER ,disappoint us. If so even 30 watt el34 based tube amplifier will outbeat 100 w.p.c ss amplifier in slam and dynamism. It will rule the hi fi world in the mid frequencies, less distortion, life like instrumentals, voices, mid bass and everything is in there. Only it lacks in fine high frequnecies and low end lfs. It makes us feel as if we are in the concert such a lifeful nature of presentation. But for fast disco and rock musics ss is more suitable. For classical instrumental tube will be the only choice

 

[GeorgeO]

I must confess to also sharing views with Marsilians and Sidvee.

Being fortunate to own both types of gear, I enjoy them both, and one happy combination( of three) that I have, of a tube pre(Grounded Grid) combined with a ss power amp(AKSA 55N) also delivers the goods for me, albeit with a not so sensitive pair of speakers. I enjoy female vocals and jazz and for that tube gear does hiot the sweet spot for me.As Anilva sagely remarked on another thread, different strokes work for different folks!

 

[ajay124]

Some nice reviews/pics from Dagogo...
Ayon CD1 and Spirit1
Doug Schroeder probes the prospect of authentic high-end in Ayon Audio's $4,299 CD-1 CD player & $3,999 Spirit tube integrated amplifier Review - Equipment Reviews - Dagogo
Pathos Classic One MK3
Doug Schroeder on a pair of the $5,500 Pathos Classic One MKIII: how his fever got higher Review - Equipment Reviews - Dagogo
Perseus Tube Pre
Watch how Doug Schroeder unravels the myth behind the $1,795 Rogue Audio Perseus tube preamplifier Review - Equipment Reviews - Dagogo
Audio Space Mini Galaxy1
Watch how Jack Roberts deals with cuteness in the form of a $790 Audio Space Mini-Galaxy 1 USB DAC/integrated tube amplifier Review - Equipment Reviews - Dagogo
Incidentally I am very happy with the 'discontinued,'demo','discounted' products I have bought recently.So are there any Ayon Spirit1's still floating around,now that Orion and Spirit2 have been introduced?And if so then at what price?

 

[ajay124]

Tubes Anyone?
Mullard Tubes : MullardTubes.com
NewSensor::Home Page
Tubes geared to your sound - Doug's Tubes
BRENT JESSEE RECORDING HOMEPAGE
Welcome to TubeDepot.com!

 

[thevortex]

I feel that it is inaccurate to portray all tube amps as equipment which colour the sound 'euphonically' and which function as an 'auto-smoother' so that even harsh music tends to be likeable!

That, I am afraid is not true. I speak only from my experience which is admittedly extremely limited.

Ultimately we are not going to get anywhere conclusive by focussing only on the amplifiers when it comes to audio systems. Everything matters. Your room, your speakers, your source. A combination of this is what sings and touches your heart.

Psychotropic was right when he said there was definitely some slam missing with my earlier setup. But after bringing in the Behringer DEQ unit, the system feels like the hybrid one that Marsilians described (to my inexperienced ears of course).

A tube amp with high sensitivity speakers - if paired with the right source - will not fail in producing music as it sounds live.

Lastly I also wonder what it is that people refer to when they talk about live music. Is it the kind that you hear when you go to rock concerts? Is it the kind you hear when you go to any kind of concerts where there is already amplification and you hear the music through large sets of speakers? In my view, this is not 'live'.

What is 'live music' then? It is the kind you hear when your friend comes with his violin and plays it in your living room. No amplification. No microphones. No speakers. Just music. Like Viren said, if we listen to such music and then come back and listen to our setup, a lot of things would become clearer.

However, there is a proviso here. Recorded music is perhaps not meant to sound 'live' in the first place! So, if we want that, then we are hankering after a particular taste in sound! Not necessarily what the music artist intended to reproduce perhaps?

 

[sidvee]

A tube amp with high sensitivity speakers - if paired with the right source - will not fail in producing music as it sounds live.

Lastly I also wonder what it is that people refer to when they talk about live music. Is it the kind that you hear when you go to rock concerts? Is it the kind you hear when you go to any kind of concerts where there is already amplification and you hear the music through large sets of speakers? In my view, this is not 'live'.

Vortex,
I concur with you. "Unplugged" is the real live music and the very few unplugged performances that I have attended sounded magical - more so than any amplified performance ever. Also out of necessity (due to lack of power amplification) these performances are more intimate and IMO tube equipment captures these type of perfromances beautifully.
Cheers
Sid

 

[stevieboy]

Tubes Anyone?
Mullard Tubes : MullardTubes.com
NewSensor::Home Page
Tubes geared to your sound - Doug's Tubes
BRENT JESSEE RECORDING HOMEPAGE
Welcome to TubeDepot.com!

Hi Ajay,

All my purchases have been off ebay. Individual sites tend to be more expensive. With ebay though you need to know your tubes, markings, factory codes etc cos I've had quite few sellers mis-represent tubes through ignorance. The flip side is you'll also score some real bargains this way from people who don't know what they're selling in an auction brent jesse is a good source of what tubes sound like.

To also answer a previous question you had posted, I'd say an average of double the power for tube amp/solid state. If you've got a ss amp of bout 100 watts a tube push pull amp of about 40-50 watts should drive the same speakers comfortably.

The more interesting part is that SET amps sound bigger, more dynamic than a push pull amp. I had an el84 push pull amp of about 15 watts and the 2.5-3 watt 2A3 SET amp sounded much larger. Even my current 1.5 watt 45 tubes sound much bigger than it.

One thing I've noticed across the tubes I've listened to is that tube envelope size does matter. The bigger the envelope the bigger and more relaxed the sound. Eg the el84 tube is smaller than the el34 tube and sounds smaller and 'harder driving'. Rectifiers too, the larger shoulder ST shaped 5V4G tubes sound little bigger and more relaxed, more airy than the smaller GZ 34/32 tubes which sound harder and more driven. The 5V4GA tube which is somewhere in the middle of both the sizes also sounds like that. Ditto for the 45 shoulder tubes which has a smaller sound with tighter bass than the globe 45 which is more relaxed and spaced out. Another point to keep in mind while scouting for a tube amps or a replacement tube. I've not seen this point mentioned anywhere on the net in my research so consider it an exclusive tip

Even the Emission labs 45 tubes which are supposed to sound the best, no surprise, they have the biggest glass envelope of all the 45 tubes!

Regards