Why tube amps?

[bhagwan]

But, to get back to the main topic on hand - why tube amps ?
Have we - after 14 pages + of deliberations, come to any consensus ?
Would a Tube Pre & Power [any make & any combination] be 'better' suited for Theil Speakers as compared to Bryston Amplifiers ?
What is the word on this from our Forum Members ?
Yes ?
No ?
If Yes - what combination would you suggest ?
Thanks,

 

[malvai]

But, to get back to the main topic on hand - why tube amps ?
Have we - after 14 pages + of deliberations, come to any consensus ?
Would a Tube Pre & Power [any make & any combination] be 'better' suited for Theil Speakers as compared to Bryston Amplifiers ?
What is the word on this from our Forum Members ?
Yes ?
No ?
If Yes - what combination would you suggest ?
Thanks,

dunno about that mate... but being a thiel owner, I can say this for sure:
the CS 2.4 that I have, needs pretty heavy duty amplification (with it low sensitivity)... The tube's however, might just be able to make them sound a lil lush...

Up until I put the chorence 2 into the chain, they were sounding a wee bit forward. the Coherence 2 has given them a lusher body and they longer sound forward. The bass snap has come back and all in all the set up sounds GREAT.

I'm sure a good tube amp would do a similar thing.... but then that's only what i feel...

 

[arj]

I have heard Thiel 2.3 run with Vincent monoblock( Tubes) ..ran pretty well with good grip and slam
I believe Audio Space amps also run them really well

 

[ajay124]

But, to get back to the main topic on hand - why tube amps ?
Have we - after 14 pages + of deliberations, come to any consensus ?
Would a Tube Pre & Power [any make & any combination] be 'better' suited for Theil Speakers as compared to Bryston Amplifiers ?
What is the word on this from our Forum Members ?
Yes ?
No ?
If Yes - what combination would you suggest ?
Thanks,

Those are clear,specific questions.
Since I and Manav(I presume)like the accuracy and slam of SS
(but are also interested in Tubes).
What Tube Pre-Power/Integrated
available in India
for under 200K,new or used
would be better suited for Thiel or Vienna Acoustic speakers
in a medium or large sized room
for listening to Jazz/Blues,
Western Classical Music,both chamber and orchestral?

 

[bhagwan]

Used - Casence Canasya may be available @ 3.5L. There is a almost brand new Allnic Pre Amplifier for sale - list is 10K US %'s @ 225/- K for sale with that Cadence Canasya. As I mentioned earlier, person is shifting from pure Tube to pure SS [wierd]....

I am not so sure if any Tube Integrated will cut the ice. Will just not have the control for the speakers that have been mentioned.

With regards to Tube Amps sold in India, I do not know what the options are. None seem to be 'powerful enough, except for Einstein & that may not fit in 200 K [to the best of my limited understanding]...

But, I will keep looking & will post if a product crosses my mind.....

If I may be allowed to drift, I know some one else that has an excellent speaker - Rockport Technologies Mira Speaker for sale. This is an Andy Payor Design - Listed @ 17/- K US $'s and it for sale @ Rs. 360/- K very very serious 3 way speaker @ 8.5/10 condition with full packing. Must be considered......
Sorry for going off track... Just that I like the speaker a lot & it is going @ a 'special' [stupid low price] rate so I mentioned it here...
:yahoo:

 

[gobble]

Heres a good 'un Lenard Audio - Education - Valve Amps

"Occult audiophile claims about valves having a magical warm sound began in the 1980s nearly 20 years after solid state technology took over. By paying attention to this illogical use of language, the assumption is, by putting an audio signal through an infinite number of valves and an infinite length of magical cable, the sound will become infinitely warm and infinitely magical."

And ...
""I think that SET owners need to have access to serious information that discredits their chosen amp. I describe the SET amp as an "effects unit" rather than a hi-fi amplifier, since it fails to meet even the most generous definition of hi-fi in all significant respects. This is a reasonable and accurate description. Naturally, if people wish to use the "effects unit" that's entirely up to them, and if they enjoy it, that's perfectly fine. What they must *not* do is try to convince me or anyone else that they have a hi-fi setup, because they don't". "

Ofcourse I still going the valve way in my long term upgrade path. Because I want to be an occultist ... hyeah:

But the masala quotes above makes it a must read

cheers

 

[bhagwan]

Ofcourse I still going the valve way in my long term upgrade path. Because I want to be an occultist ... hyeah:

But the masala quotes above makes it a must read

cheers

:lol:

Interesting.....

 

[ajay124]

Heres a good 'un Lenard Audio - Education - Valve Amps

"Occult audiophile claims about valves having a magical warm sound began in the 1980s nearly 20 years after solid state technology took over. By paying attention to this illogical use of language, the assumption is, by putting an audio signal through an infinite number of valves and an infinite length of magical cable, the sound will become infinitely warm and infinitely magical."

And ...
""I think that SET owners need to have access to serious information that discredits their chosen amp. I describe the SET amp as an "effects unit" rather than a hi-fi amplifier, since it fails to meet even the most generous definition of hi-fi in all significant respects. This is a reasonable and accurate description. Naturally, if people wish to use the "effects unit" that's entirely up to them, and if they enjoy it, that's perfectly fine. What they must *not* do is try to convince me or anyone else that they have a hi-fi setup, because they don't". "

Ofcourse I still going the valve way in my long term upgrade path. Because I want to be an occultist ... hyeah:

But the masala quotes above makes it a must read

cheers

@Gobble
With Suri,missing from the forum in recent times,your posts are among the very few which can raise a while saying something which merits consideration.
Also....
Is the trend towards Tube/Vinyl merely a reflection of our yearning for the good old days (NOSTALGIA HIFI!) or do they really sound better?

 

[hifiashok]

@Gobble
With Suri,missing from the forum in recent times,your posts are among the very few which can raise a while saying something which merits consideration.
Also....
Is the trend towards Tube/Vinyl merely a reflection of our yearning for the good old days (NOSTALGIA HIFI!) or do they really sound better?

Ooooh! Now you have definitely struck a nerve!!

 

[square_wave]

What you won't get is a headnumbing wall of sound. But what you get and what I like is nuance and an involvement I don't find in solid state gear.

Hi Stevie,

This is the kind of blanket statement I would want to disagree with.
I know you love your SET-Single driver setup. I respect your decision and whenever I listen to the rethms I am reminded of what such a setup can do within its constraints.

There are many fine examples of SS based setups which can deliver very high when it comes to nuance and involvement.

In fact some single driver based setups can be made to deliver great musical involvement if they are run with very quality SS designs which are very low powered. The first watt amps by nelson pass come to mind. I once heard the rethms with a red wine audio integrated and it sounded very nice.

The biggest problems with powering your typical SS amps with very delicate speakers which needs very less power is that such amps do not deliver very fine first few watts which is all that is required for such speakers to sing !

If the design approach is appropriate for the setup, all setups can shine when it comes to all parameters for correct reproduction of music. All that will remain are certain minor characteristics of tubes and ss.

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Stevie,

This is the kind of blanket statement I would want to disagree with.
I know you love your SET-Single driver setup. I respect your decision and whenever I listen to the rethms I am reminded of what such a setup can do within its constraints.

Hi Square_wave,

It's not a blanket statement, never intended to be, that would indeed be too preachy. It's a personal statement which is why I have specifically mentioned 'I don't find in solid state gear'. Perhaps what is nuance and involvement to you might not be the same to me and vice versa no? Highly personal this field. For example, Malvai is seeking the same things as I am yet I'm sure while both of us would be happy to listen to each other's system, I'm also pretty sure that he wouldn't want to switch to my system nor I to his. Yet both are extremely happy having found what we both are looking for! Different ends of the tunnel Malvai called it... If there was one golden standard then everybody would have the same system.

Am also sure people who have heard my set up will disagree as to it's beauty to various extents Point is like Shanti said, if you like it, it stays, everything else goes outta the door! Which is why I've got out of digital too

regards
steve

edit: forget tubes versus solid state, nuance and involvement varies within tubes too! Not all tubes deliver the same way for me

 

[stevieboy]

And ...
""I think that SET owners need to have access to serious information that discredits their chosen amp. I describe the SET amp as an "effects unit" rather than a hi-fi amplifier, since it fails to meet even the most generous definition of hi-fi in all significant respects. This is a reasonable and accurate description. Naturally, if people wish to use the "effects unit" that's entirely up to them, and if they enjoy it, that's perfectly fine. What they must *not* do is try to convince me or anyone else that they have a hi-fi setup, because they don't". "

cheers

I'm glad SET amps are not hi-fi, judging by what passes for 'standards' in hi-fi, judging performance by breaking music down into itty bitty compartments just so one can get things tangible in order to be able to put a finger on them and then award stars accordingly. Never could come to terms with the way most reviewers review systems. I'm happy to not belong hyeah:

regards

 

[Dr.Bass]

Those are clear,specific questions.
Since I and Manav(I presume)like the accuracy and slam of SS
(but are also interested in Tubes).
What Tube Pre-Power/Integrated
available in India
for under 200K,new or used
would be better suited for Thiel or Vienna Acoustic speakers
in a medium or large sized room
for listening to Jazz/Blues,
Western Classical Music,both chamber and orchestral?

There are more tube amps than you and I can imagine which does the best of both worlds in style. But then I agree that in most cases SS watts are relatively cheaper compared to tube watts. Forget about numbers for some time. The way a 50 watt tube amp drives is more important than "50 watts" as a spec. Even though my experience with tube amps is relatively limited, I have heard some very good examples of tube amps. Some are very well known and some totally unknown.

The first time I heard an ATC, it was being driven by a 40 watt tube integrated from a less known brand called "Audio Space". It was special. It did everything. I did not crank it up very loud but it was pretty loud yet comfortable without any strain. Cost was 120k in Spore.

Similar example is Octave v40 which are used to drive Dynaudio Sapphire in shows.

Cadence Canasya is anyway well known

Corrson 845 SET, 60 watter is another cracker of a tube amp.

SAC Thailand makes GM70 based tube amps which can drive almost anything with their 70 watts. Price : 200k for a pair of mono blocks.
http://www.sacthailand.com/

Graaf makes 50 watt tube integrated amp which again belongs to the same league of high drive neutral amps.

There are more...many more. Believe me, they are a different world compared to a Bryston.

Good thing about all these amps are they do not try to imitate SS (may be they dont have the identity crisis), they just do their own thing well and hence the tube magic is always there. Presentation could be different.

 

[Hiten]

But, to get back to the main topic on hand - why tube amps ?
Have we - after 14 pages + of deliberations, come to any consensus ?

From past experience and my limited capacity of budget and knowledge... discussions like "Tube vs Solid State" or "Analog vs Digital" didn't came to any conclusion or consensus it only created war like situation. :lol:


@ Ajay ~ I hear chandigarh has cool weather most of the time. Enjoy this...

 

[bhagwan]

There are more tube amps than you and I can imagine which does the best of both worlds in style. But then I agree that in most cases SS watts are relatively cheaper compared to tube watts. Forget about numbers for some time. The way a 50 watt tube amp drives is more important than "50 watts" as a spec. Even though my experience with tube amps is relatively limited, I have heard some very good examples of tube amps. Some are very well known and some totally unknown.

The first time I heard an ATC, it was being driven by a 40 watt tube integrated from a less known brand called "Audio Space". It was special. It did everything. I did not crank it up very loud but it was pretty loud yet comfortable without any strain. Cost was 120k in Spore.

Similar example is Octave v40 which are used to drive Dynaudio Sapphire in shows.

Cadence Canasya is anyway well known - 6.5 Lacs

Corrson 845 SET, 60 watter is another cracker of a tube amp. Price ??

SAC Thailand makes GM70 based tube amps which can drive almost anything with their 70 watts. Price : 200k for a pair of mono blocks. No idea about this - never heard of it nor have I heard it.

Graaf makes 50 watt tube integrated amp which again belongs to the same league of high drive neutral amps. Cost ?
Not neutral by a mile

There are more...many more. Believe me, they are a different world compared to a Bryston.

Good thing about all these amps are they do not try to imitate SS, they just do their own thing well and hence the tube magic is always there. Presentation could be different.

Comments are in red...

 

[odyssey]

How much power would you say is required - say at 8 or 4 ohms?

Used - Casence Canasya may be available @ 3.5L. There is a almost brand new Allnic Pre Amplifier for sale - list is 10K US %'s @ 225/- K for sale with that Cadence Canasya. As I mentioned earlier, person is shifting from pure Tube to pure SS [wierd]....

I am not so sure if any Tube Integrated will cut the ice. Will just not have the control for the speakers that have been mentioned.

With regards to Tube Amps sold in India, I do not know what the options are. None seem to be 'powerful enough, except for Einstein & that may not fit in 200 K [to the best of my limited understanding]...

But, I will keep looking & will post if a product crosses my mind.....

If I may be allowed to drift, I know some one else that has an excellent speaker - Rockport Technologies Mira Speaker for sale. This is an Andy Payor Design - Listed @ 17/- K US $'s and it for sale @ Rs. 360/- K very very serious 3 way speaker @ 8.5/10 condition with full packing. Must be considered......
Sorry for going off track... Just that I like the speaker a lot & it is going @ a 'special' [stupid low price] rate so I mentioned it here...
:yahoo:

 

[bhagwan]

From past experience and my limited capacity of budget and knowledge... discussions like "Tube vs Solid State" or "Analog vs Digital" didn't came to any conclusion or consensus it only created war like situation. :lol:

War ?
Why ?
If I like SS & you like Tubes, so be it...
I do not want you to change ?
You are @ liberty to use what you like....I would assume...
I too can choose & I did;
Was a hard core SS guy for 10 ++ years & for the past 1 year have moved over to Tubes.
It is rather simple, to each his own...

Same works for Analogue V/S Digital.
I was a hard core Digital guy, not 1 + year back I am into I-Touch & Computer Audio.

p.s. I do not even have a CD Player in my presence...

 

[bhagwan]

How much power would you say is required - say at 8 or 4 ohms?

50 watts should do the trick - I assume.
Some KT 88 based tube amplifier will work, but what we want to suggest is a tube amp that sounds & plays like a tube amplifier & not one that is trying to emulate a SS amp.

The delicasy / poise / nimbleness etc. of a tube should not be over powered by the shear drive factor taking over - imho...:sad:

 

[arj]

I'm glad SET amps are not hi-fi, judging by what passes for 'standards' in hi-fi, judging performance by breaking music down into itty bitty compartments just so one can get things tangible in order to be able to put a finger on them and then award stars accordingly. Never could come to terms with the way most reviewers review systems. I'm happy to not belong hyeah:

regards

LOL..that is a statement by Rod Elliot of the "cables dont make a difference " fame

Actually the information presented is really good..just need to separate out some Bias(s) he has More info here

 

[ajay124]

"but what we want to suggest is a tube amp that sounds & plays like a tube amplifier & not one that is trying to emulate a SS amp."

Yeah!But p-l-e-a-s-e keep budget in the loop too.I and most people cannot afford to spend 650K on an Amp.Although I don't mind reading and learning about more expensive amps.
Ultimately budget pushes most people into compromises.I have set my (future) budget for a Tube Amp at 200K give or take some change.
I know a good Pre/Power would be difficult to find in this price range.THEREFORE
Compromise 1 Buy an integrated tube amp?
Compromise 2 Buy a tube power amp and use my Bryston BP6 Pre?
Compromise 3 Buy a tube pre and use my Bryston 3B SST?