Dali Ikon6 auditioned

[corElement]

yeah, the x-718 costs less than ikon 6.
Dont feel so bad. it sounds far superior to ikon 6 with odessey.

Ahh crap you saw it before I editted it. I misread the x718 as be718 so I editted it asap.

 

[S.P.KRISHNA]

The OPs view of Ikons should also be taken otherwise that the Speakers exposed the quality of the Amps. I heard Ikon 6 and Zensor 7 with Denon, Cambridge, Marantz and Rotel combinations. Dalis are excellently paired with Marantz and Zensor with Rotel & Cambridge . Both Ikon and Zensor sounded worst with denon. When tested with other branded speakers like wharfedale, B&w, mission the performance of Denon stood last in the list. The problem lies in the amps and not in the speakers. Dalis are very good speakers and the only complaint is they are priced exorbitantly.

 

[varma_vikas]

i feel exactly the other way around. 685 was a serious contender and ikon didnt even make it to our top ten list. we rated it equal to some low end polks.

Yes , absolutely correct,


This is the reason I had written that this type of quality can come in half OR less than half of the price.

 

[varma_vikas]

What amplifier model was the denon which was connected to the ikon 6



Well I'm not surprised, most Denon amplifiers readily on display at stores use cheap class ab amplification with cheap low quality parts.
Class ab amplifiers tend to do better on lower quality speakers by giving the illusion of clarity through artificial brightness.

The ikon 6 is a bright speaker, when you pair it with a bright amplifier, the result will be very poor.

That is what you experienced first hand.



Well, obviously, you've been listening to it for almost a decade. Your neural pathways have evolved to receive sonic detail through that tonality. What did you expect?




Refer to my comment above.

You don't know what you're looking for. Anything you're saying beyond this point is just rambling.

You need to first understand what you're looking for in your mind. What your mind wants. Because if you don't, everything else will sound like crap and you will call it crap.




10 Lakhs to somebody, 10 hours of education to others.



What is this Dr.Bass reference you're consistently using, if you wanted to talk to Dr.Bass you should have pm'ed him instead of making this post public.



Define what is better sound for us please.



Big words, for someone who hasn't even written down what type of sound he prefers and calls everything else crap.



Companies change, competitions change, management changes, cost of production changes, the world is not a static place.

Also bigger driver cones mean nothing without knowing whats behind them.



Ever heard of the word preference? People have different preferences, choices make things interesting. I would hate to live in a world with just one choice of music because I for one sure know I've gone through 3 different sound quality preference changes.



Amplifier makes 100% difference and so does an open mind.

Do you even know what frequency that bass knob changes? 30hz? 60hz? 120hz? 240hz?

And as for punch, larger driver does not equate to punch and neither does a punch mean it's bass.

Punch is measured by the amount of air displaced by a woofer. This equates to the speed of the driver. The speed of a driver is measured by it's waterfall plot diagram. Two 5" drivers which has an excursion equal to one 10" driver will generate the same amount of punch but this is not bass either.

Bass is low frequencies. And the lower you go, the less you hear. You go down to 20hz and your clothes will flutter without any sound or punch, THAT is true low frequency. It's not something you hear at all below 20hz.

You're calling everything crap without even educating yourself or asking people.



The rest of the world thinks otherwise.



Did you even check what type of amplification it was? Class a or class ab or class b?
What's harsh to you may be clarity to others.



If it's their preference, yes it is.



If you don't know what kind of sound you prefer or can't define it, then yes you are indeed better off sticking to the woodstock setup which your neural pathways have evolved around.



I'm not trying to attack you but honestly, the only person who seems oblivious and unaware here is you.

Being an audiophile isn't window shopping.

It's a journey of self reflection through educating oneself and understanding one's preferences and finding a setup that appeals to that self reflected understanding to find a sonic quality that best appeals to us.

When we reach that pinnacle of understanding which pleases our minds, we will achieve it by hook or by crook and nothing can stop you from getting your hands on it.

It took me 2 years to understand that I like the sound of Pre-klipsch Jamo configurations and I went through 3 different phases and dozens of auditions till I reached this conclusion. When I came to that realization I searched online for 1 year to find the speaker model that I wanted until I finally found it.




You consider auditions a ruining of your holiday??



If you have to rely on someone else's passion to justify your own, you need to rethink your priorities. Passion is a reflection of self understanding.



Which dealer? where? when? Also there are hundreds of thousands of brands, why are you even expecting a dealer to know every brand?



I don't..why?

Because you have not done any real research or any self reflection. Understand yourself before you try to understand anything else.

Everything is within one's reach, it's just a matter of how much priority you want to assign to it. If you know what you want, you can even find a 2,00,000 inr pair of speakers for 30,000 inr.

Hi Core element,

It is not about any neutral path way or what ever you are saying. I am still open for a good sound( till the time I hear that). And I very well know what I want, this is the reason I am not happy after watching todays audio.

I have also heard denon ( couple of years ago) and that was beatiful sounding, however the unit was golden in colour and made in japan, attached with KEF 5.1. whole of the system was costind approx 1.5 lakhs.

Now a days when I enquired about KEF, no body recomended. Dealer told that KEF is the most crap.

And yes, if this the scenario of the dealers in delhi that they do not know anything and keep only average products then YES, it is complete ruining of my day.

Why I should not expect them to know everything. They should know every technical details as they have been working in this field and the field is all about TECHNICALS.

If I need to take all the training then why are they there?

It means if I need to go for some audio, I need to become an audio engineer before purchase. I need to have all the technical details of speakers and amplifiers. If I start taking the training for all these things, then why to purchase the things from dealers, I will start creating the audio systems by my own.



If u ask what is quality of music--I will say IMO quality is what which comes at low columes not the high. Each and every detail, bass impact in lowest volumes, treble and clarity of vocals in the lowest volumes shows the capability of a good audio systems. All this I have heard in my woodstock and earlier denon.

 

[ShaQ.Blogs]

And yes, if this the scenario of the dealers in delhi that they do not know anything and keep only average products then YES, it is complete ruining of my day.

Why I should not expect them to know everything. They should know every technical details as they have been working in this field and the field is all about TECHNICALS.

If I need to take all the training then why are they there?

Difference between fiction and reality.
It if fictitious to expect a dealer whose job to sell to know technical details to the level that you are expecting! I had the same experience, was a little bugged, but i came down to earth quickly.
It is reality that, irrespective of how well he knows something, his job is to sell. How effective he sell depends on how well he interacts. You want meet a tech guru kind in audio industry? Come to bangalore and go behind kormangla BDA complex and meet Mr Palini. Most people who interact, say he is way above my head. He goes into technical depth and takes ur head off with it. One needs to understand that Many customers are not looking for such. You can sell big time without going too much in detail or knowing much.

 

[corElement]

Good chance the Denon you heard was a class-a or high end class ab type amplifier in champagne color from late 90's/early 2000's. That plus Kef sound signature = a very good combination.

And believe me, that would not be cheap today.

The dealer is the last person you should refer to, regardless of who he is.
As soon as they say an entire brand is crap stop talking to the dealer and just audition things and walk out after.

Kef is an EXCELLENT speaker brand. You should without question audition Kef speakers.

Any effort put in where there is a realization at the end is a learning experience, it's never a wasted effort.

Be Chill man, don't be frustrated.

There's a ridiculous amount of information on these forums where you can learn 1000x more than any dealer and you don't need to be an engineer to know. I know I'm not.

Chillax, try out other brands or talk to people to figure out what you like first.

Theres indian brands like Lyrita in delhi itself run by Mr Viren Bakshi who makes some of the most impressive equipment for affordable rates that some members who used extremely expensive equipment have switched over to. Even Hari Iyer himself in this thread is a speaker maker who makes transmission line speakers and Avidyarthy in delhi itself owns one of his ATL speakers.

Delhi has lots of options, don't get frustrated, you're learning. More time spent learning is better sound acquired.

 

[Hari Iyer]

To each his own.

Dali Ikons are among the most praised and most awarded speakers of past two decades. There must be something all the audio gurus around the world don't know that you do?

i personaly take reviews and awards with a pinch of salt. No offences though.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Sir, there is no point in auditioning a Dali Ikon with the amp you are mentioning. The Dali will lay bare all the positives and negatives of your amp and you might be left wondering why does the speaker sound so bad (or so good, depending how your amp is).

So you do agree that Dali Ikon 6 will not sound good with my SONY Amp, while i have build, tested and sold many speakers with this same amp and have many satisfied customers in India. Atleast the specs of the Sony cannot be bettered by many top-of the range amplifiers.

 

[ranjeetrain]

i personaly take reviews and awards with a pinch of salt. No offences though.

Everyone should take reviews and awards with a pinch of salt. I don't recommend going by reviews. But if all web sites, all reviewers are saying great things about a certain product range consistently, for years, THEY ALL can't be wrong, all at the SAME TIME.

Probably you do not know that Dali Ikon are most respected loudspeakers in its price class in the European market, world's most competitive hifi market. There must be some truth in those reviews. Unless you mean to say you understand audio products better than the whole world combined.

 

[ranjeetrain]

So you do agree that Dali Ikon 6 will not sound good with my SONY Amp, while i have build, tested and sold many speakers with this same amp and have many satisfied customers in India. At least the specs of the Sony cannot be bettered by many top-of the range amplifiers.

Ah, you seem to be reading in a big hurry. I said "The Dali will lay bare all the positives and negatives of your amp and you might be left wondering why does the speaker sound so bad (or so good, depending how your amp is)."

And one more time, specs are just numbers. They are indicative, not decisive. I have had n number of experiences of high-spec products not doing well in reality. In my earlier post also I mentioned some of such experiences I have had. Use the specs to PLAN your audition list, DON'T make it your buying shortlist.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Below are some technical measurements of the Dali Ikon 6

DALI Ikon 6 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

There are many high-low Q points in the mid & high response which can cause hearing fatigue in the long listening sessions, the impedance curve is impressive though it is compensated for a lower high frequency response above 8KHz.
Even the anechoic response is quite harsh in the mid & high frequency. I am not sure if all the high-end speakers have similar responses. May be some research is required here.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Everyone should take reviews and awards with a pinch of salt. I don't recommend going by reviews. But if all web sites, all reviewers are saying great things about a certain product range consistently, for years, THEY ALL can't be wrong, all at the SAME TIME.

Probably you do not know that Dali Ikon are most respected loudspeakers in its price class in the European market, world's most competitive hifi market. There must be some truth in those reviews. Unless you mean to say you understand audio products better than the whole world combined.

All the reviewers are paid to say the samething about the speakers else they will be ruining their career. Its their bread and butter and everything is fare in love and war. If some one pays me xxxxxxxxxxxxx amount of money then probablly i too will have something to say good about any product. Its business and that's how it works even if it tough for you to digest.

I dont understand even 1% of the speakers that most reviewers claim that they do. I can only say that i build speakers that sound good to my customers. Since you are located at New Delhi you can probably pay a visit to FM Avidyarths home and probably speak with CorElement and Anm about the speakers installed at his home if you have the time and inclination to audion one more speaker.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Ah, you seem to be reading in a big hurry. I said "The Dali will lay bare all the positives and negatives of your amp and you might be left wondering why does the speaker sound so bad (or so good, depending how your amp is)."

And one more time, specs are just numbers. They are indicative, not decisive. I have had n number of experiences of high-spec products not doing well in reality. In my earlier post also I mentioned some of such experiences I have had. Use the specs to PLAN your audition list, DON'T make it your buying shortlist.

I personally even take specs with a pinch of salt. its also a kind of psyco-acoustics which make our human perception to belive something which may not be true. I usually audition any product without looking at the specifications as i do not want the specs bias to come in front of me. Only if i like or dont like the product i would rather enquire about the specs. Many speaker manufacture quote FR without giving any importance to the reference level. No phase response or polar response on/off-axis are quoted let alone power bandwidth or dynamic headroom. Earlier amplifers use to quote figuers of damping factors and slew rate which are not quoted in current generations.

I never audition a speaker or amplifier with the same music played all the time, since our human perception can fill-in the missing gaps in the speaker / amplifier due to our memory retention of the same music heard many times. I always also carry one or two numbers that i have not heard before so that i am able to perceive the sound as it is and not allow my memory to fill the missing gaps.

 

[varma_vikas]

Good chance the Denon you heard was a class-a or high end class ab type amplifier in champagne color from late 90's/early 2000's. That plus Kef sound signature = a very good combination.

And believe me, that would not be cheap today.

The dealer is the last person you should refer to, regardless of who he is.
As soon as they say an entire brand is crap stop talking to the dealer and just audition things and walk out after.

Kef is an EXCELLENT speaker brand. You should without question audition Kef speakers.

Any effort put in where there is a realization at the end is a learning experience, it's never a wasted effort.

Be Chill man, don't be frustrated.

There's a ridiculous amount of information on these forums where you can learn 1000x more than any dealer and you don't need to be an engineer to know. I know I'm not.

Chillax, try out other brands or talk to people to figure out what you like first.

Theres indian brands like Lyrita in delhi itself run by Mr Viren Bakshi who makes some of the most impressive equipment for affordable rates that some members who used extremely expensive equipment have switched over to. Even Hari Iyer himself in this thread is a speaker maker who makes transmission line speakers and Avidyarthy in delhi itself owns one of his ATL speakers.

Delhi has lots of options, don't get frustrated, you're learning. More time spent learning is better sound acquired.

Thank you Core element,

I know lyrita audio and I can audition easily. The only reason I did'nt because I want to go with solidstate route and secondly I do not wish to go for proprietary products. I know they make good products in reasonable prices.That is true.

Seriously, I need lot of consultation regarding audio.

My only wish is 2 channel stereo with behmoth sound. This is the reason i have been looking for bookshelf with sub woofer. I have planned to go for amplifier later on as I have broken my budget.

First I will go for speakers, I wish to use that with woodstock (75 rms/channel), till the time I go for a very good amplifier which can go for decades. This is because I wish to go for the amplifier like Belles(if u r aware with the name), Bryston,Krell,Luxman etc. Just taking these examples to show u that what is in my mind.

Could you provide the names of other good reliable high current amplifiers. I know there are lot, just I am not aware with the names.

For me it may take time to create the complete system but when it comletes, it will be something extraordinary.

 

[varma_vikas]

All the reviewers are paid to say the samething about the speakers else they will be ruining their career. Its their bread and butter and everything is fare in love and war. If some one pays me xxxxxxxxxxxxx amount of money then probablly i too will have something to say good about any product. Its business and that's how it works even if it tough for you to digest.

I dont understand even 1% of the speakers that most reviewers claim that they do. I can only say that i build speakers that sound good to my customers. Since you are located at New Delhi you can probably pay a visit to FM Avidyarths home and probably speak with CorElement and Anm about the speakers installed at his home if you have the time and inclination to audion one more speaker.

THIS IS ANOTHER ONE OF THE BIGGEST TRUTH HARI JI

Thank you

 

[corElement]

Thank you Core element,

I know lyrita audio and I can audition easily. The only reason I did'nt because I want to go with solidstate route and secondly I do not wish to go for proprietary products. I know they make good products in reasonable prices.That is true.

Seriously, I need lot of consultation regarding audio.

My only wish is 2 channel stereo with behmoth sound. This is the reason i have been looking for bookshelf with sub woofer. I have planned to go for amplifier later on as I have broken my budget.

First I will go for speakers, I wish to use that with woodstock (75 rms/channel), till the time I go for a very good amplifier which can go for decades. This is because I wish to go for the amplifier like Belles(if u r aware with the name), Bryston,Krell,Luxman etc. Just taking these examples to show u that what is in my mind.

Could you provide the names of other good reliable high current amplifiers. I know there are lot, just I am not aware with the names.

For me it may take time to create the complete system but when it comletes, it will be something extraordinary.

Once again, you're talking brands and not sound....

You need to tell us what QUALITIES you want in your sound, this only happens by UNDERSTANDING what kind of sound you feel happy listening to.

Brands mean nothing if you pick a model with a signature which your mind does not like. You can go with the most expensive brands possible but if you pick a model with a signature you don't like it will be the same old denon vs new denon all over again.

 

[varma_vikas]

Good chance the Denon you heard was a class-a or high end class ab type amplifier in champagne color from late 90's/early 2000's. That plus Kef sound signature = a very good combination.

And believe me, that would not be cheap today.

The dealer is the last person you should refer to, regardless of who he is.
As soon as they say an entire brand is crap stop talking to the dealer and just audition things and walk out after.

Kef is an EXCELLENT speaker brand. You should without question audition Kef speakers.

Any effort put in where there is a realization at the end is a learning experience, it's never a wasted effort.

Be Chill man, don't be frustrated.

There's a ridiculous amount of information on these forums where you can learn 1000x more than any dealer and you don't need to be an engineer to know. I know I'm not.

Chillax, try out other brands or talk to people to figure out what you like first.

Theres indian brands like Lyrita in delhi itself run by Mr Viren Bakshi who makes some of the most impressive equipment for affordable rates that some members who used extremely expensive equipment have switched over to. Even Hari Iyer himself in this thread is a speaker maker who makes transmission line speakers and Avidyarthy in delhi itself owns one of his ATL speakers.

Delhi has lots of options, don't get frustrated, you're learning. More time spent learning is better sound acquired.

Hi,

I wish to tell u about one more experience,
Last week I auditioned Ascendo speakers( cost 6.5 lakhs) with Belles amplifier(cost 2.35 lakhs).

I did not like the sound however it was far better than all other my experiences

But Ascerndo ( I think was c5 model, single driver visible) is in very different league. Sound staging was very good. It was feeling like somebody is singing
in front of me but again I did not like that in low volume. Here I can agree that to drive those speakers , combination of pre power is essential, however we listened with Belles Soloist1 integrated 125 w/channel.

I think atleast 150w/channel power amp would have done more justice to ascendo.

In the above case I have mentioned, I can agree that speakers were underutilised.

Will take some more auditions and willm keep u people updated. Please provide any tips for auditions if u have some in mind.

Also please provide some knowledge on Paradigm studio 60 and monitor sreies, in case I wish to go for FS, AS MY NEXT AUDITION WILL BE PARADIGM AND I WILL TRY TO TAKE THAT WITH MY OWN AMPLIFIER ALSO.

Thank you

 

[ranjeetrain]

Below are some technical measurements of the Dali Ikon 6

DALI Ikon 6 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

There are many high-low Q points in the mid & high response which can cause hearing fatigue in the long listening sessions, the impedance curve is impressive though it is compensated for a lower high frequency response above 8KHz.
Even the anechoic response is quite harsh in the mid & high frequency. I am not sure if all the high-end speakers have similar responses. May be some research is required here.

This post of yours is full of factual errors. It raises questions about your understanding of the measurements provided by Stereophile specifically as well as your general understanding of loudspeaker technology. Some questions to clarify what you meant.

1. "There are many high-low Q points in the mid & high response which can cause hearing fatigue in the long listening sessions"

(a) Which graph shows such high-low points that it will cause fatigue? Could you please link the graph directly, so that we can have a proper point of reference for discussion?
(b) Have you studied the frequency response of exorbitantly expensive speakers such as (i) Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy 8 - $28,000 (ii) B&W Diamond 800 - $24,000 (iii) Focal Electra 1028 Be - $8500 etc? Please do, if you haven't!! They have such pathetic FR, I can't even imagine how harsh a criticism you may begin for them.
(c) Have you seen any other speaker in this price class with a better frequency response? Please post the measurements of such a speaker for all of us to understand just how poorly designed Dali Ikons are, so that future readers of this thread can make a more informed decision.
(d) Where does that conclusion come from? Can you point us to your source of knowledge behind such a claim? As far as my experience is concerned, my typical listening sessions are hours at a stretch and a speaker that causes fatigue would be the last item in my household. Needless to say Ikon would have been out the door the first day they gave me fatigue. But since they have been with me for years, I suspect I never had a fatigue listening to them. So your claim seems quite out of place. Please post some supporting argument for everyone's benefit, if not, you would help everyone by not making wild conclusions.

2. "the impedance curve is impressive though it is compensated for a lower high frequency response above 8KHz."

Absolutely incorrect! Which graph are you referring to here? Your conclusion is wrong.

Let me quote John Atkinson himself here. "though overall, the DALI's balance is fairly smooth", "The upper bass appears boosted a little compared with the lower midrange, but most of this is an artifact of the nearfield measurement technique. The Ikon 6 is actually pretty flat down to 60Hz or so".

It is clear that JA is very satisfied with the measurements. I don't know how did you make the conclusion you made. May be you can interpret JA's measurements better than himself? In that case, sir, I will have to seriously suspect your credentials, because JA is a very highly respected reviewer who measures some ridiculously expensive speakers and his measurements and interpretations are considered industry-standard.

3. Even the anechoic response is quite harsh in the mid & high frequency. I am not sure if all the high-end speakers have similar responses.

Again, would you please show the FR chart of other similarly priced speakers which have better anechoic FR? You would do a great service by posting examples rather than wild speculation.

4. May be some research is required here. -- I agree with you. You need to do a lot of research on loudspeaker measurements. And more importantly, you need to work harder on interpreting them correctly, as in this post your conclusions are totally haywire.

 

[ranjeetrain]

All the reviewers are paid to say the samething about the speakers else they will be ruining their career. Its their bread and butter and everything is fare in love and war. If some one pays me xxxxxxxxxxxxx amount of money then probablly i too will have something to say good about any product. Its business and that's how it works even if it tough for you to digest. .

Sorry, I can't buy that. I can understand "some influence" in "some cases", but saying "All the reviewers are paid to say the samething about the speakers" just isn't acceptable. If you have a trust problem, it's limited to you. You can't assume everyone thinks the same way as you. If all reviewers were paid, there will never be a negative review. And I see tons of negative reviews, so I will not buy that. By making that statement you are insulting a whole lot of reviewers and institutions that sweat it out day and night to evaluate products and report findings.

 

[musicbee]

Now a days when I enquired about KEF, no body recomended. Dealer told that KEF is the most crap.

You would better stay away from that dealer and also let this serve as a litmus test henceforth... anyone badmouthing KEF... well just keep away from them.

The KEF Q300 is the best BS in its price range (IMHO).

I spent hours listening to the KEF R300 and must say its special (maybe prohibitively priced but seeing your budget is around $2000 do give them a listen).

Coming to the DALI Ikon 6 it had the sweetest mid-range in all the speakers I've auditioned in its price range but its not my choice only because I listen to a lot of rock, blues and hip hop. For anyone listening to only vocals I'd say it would be the number one contender (or at least in the top 3) in that budget.