Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

[odyssey]

Hi Dinyaar
The pleasure was all mine to have them here, so no need to thank me
Its not everyday that you get to meet avid music lovers and thats exactly who Jim and Behram are. Thats all what this hobby is about to be all about in the first place
I dont know how much Jim and Behram will remember but they heard the following
1. Shindo tube pre + Operetta + Be-718 Usher / mini-dancer
2. Etesian + Operetta + Be-718 Usher/mini-dancer
3. Etesian + Stratos + Be-718 or Mini-dancer - I dont remember now
4. Shindo tube pre + Shindo power + be-718 Usher

They also heard the higher end Usher Be-10 but very briefly.

On the Emerald Physics they heard
Etesian pre/ATI 4-ch (2 ch on mid/tweet and 2 ch on bass)
Shindo pre /ATI 4-ch (2 ch on mid/tweet and 2 ch on bass)
Shindo pre + Operetta 2 ch on mid/tweet and ATI on bass
Shindo Pre + shindo power 2 ch on mid/tweet and Odyssey on bass
Etesian + Operetta 2 ch on mid/tweet and Stratos on bass

The freq's are bass (up to 1Khz) and on the mid/tweet above 1 Khz. So the bass is really serving the very important lower mid as well.
Its going to be heard to remember exactly what they heard and how it sounded with each amp as tuning and setting up the speakers takes time every time you change an amp, its not plug and play

Dinyaar, you should ask Behram specifically about the Etesian passive preamp and get his opinion. You can mention to him thats its the black passive unit he heard (we have only one type of passive in our store).

Asit, Dinyaar, ROC was there among some others who dropped in but the others arent on the forum.

I dont want to post anything on impressions of sound/music till Dinyaar has a chance to post based on his friends feedback, that way I dont bias anything
Overall they were trying to figure out how transparent the EP is and were trying to get its strengths and weaknesses rather than figure out what the amps themselves were doing.

cheers
Sridhar

 

[Asit]

I dont want to post anything on impressions of sound/music till Dinyaar has a chance to post based on his friends feedback, that way I dont bias anything
Sridhar

Ok Sridhar, fair enough! But, please do it after dinyaar's post.

At some point, please post your own impressions on the Etesian+Operetta compared with the Etesian+Stratos combination. Somehow I have the impression in my mind that the Operetta may sound a bit cool compared with the Stratos, however people have a lot of praise about the quality of components used in the Operetta and it may just be more reliable. You got to admit though so far I have been one very careful user with everything lasting in my hands at least 15 years (my 3 head, dual motor, bias-controllable Aiwa single cassette deck, the Dual CS 5000 TT and the Denon DCD 920 CDP) and some even 20 years (HK6300 amp, Kenwood GE5020 equalizer and the Canton Karat 60 speakers).

With so many combinations tried, it would be very difficult for dinyaar's friends to remember things clearly. Sridhar, if you were the one changing the cables for so many combinations, you probably have a bad back by now :clapping:

Got to be some kind of record in auditioning. Has anybody auditioned more combinations in a day anywhere in the world? I doubt it!

 

[dinyaar]

Hi,
Will speak to Behram too. See the problem is that these guys opinions on amps really differ from mine. The priorities are very different but since they were going there i asked them to audition. Hence i was shocked when they liked the Thiels, and even more when i heard that the driving amp was a 14BSST. The EP appealed to him and the fact that its endlessly tweakable appealed immensely. Can play around with amps and cables and settings.

Asit , Jim will break any record really. He sometimes listens to music for 12/14 hrs!!!!! He carried 20 cds plus a few that behram carried. Shridhar may have said a quiet prayer when they left!!!! Haha

Shri i too just met Behram thru Jim but i gather they share a similar taste. Jim is blessed with a great room which is a dedicated music room so his options are unlimited contrary to mine.

Anyway not really pertaining to this context but i ll post it here anyway.
As u guys know i sold the Brystons and temporarily was using the Arcam integrated and later also added a demo Arcam power and Biamped. Was really considering options for a onebox solution. I have two cdps in two homes namely the Yamaha CDS 2000 and the Arcam CD 192 and speakers are 804s and 805s. The Accuphase here seems to be really over the top in pricing with the 100 watter being 4.5L and i have gone thru most amps mentioned in this thread. In the UK my cousin uses a Mcintosh integrated with the 805s and i have always liked the sound but never really seriously considered buying the MC there for various reasons. The Accu that i heard then was very different with much more attack,slam, control, depth but with an uncertain edgy treble.
Funny thing is that my musical tastes, preferences and even my entire outlook to what i perceive is good sound has changed radically in this decade. Now rock, pop etc contribute at best about 20% of my listening. Dont really need attack, slam as i once craved.
Anyway before u guys doze of i want to add that i have decided on my integrated after a friend of min e was kind enough to loan me his (earlier series mammoth) for the weekend. I love this MARANTZ PM 11S 2.
Trebles, mids to die for, fantastic build, very precise controls and all in all a VFM option if i compare it to some integrateds that sell in the 1.5/2L bracket.This amp may not appeal to the young guy wanting real excitement and attack but it works for me. I felt and confirmed later that tons of my cables will not work on this set up(transparent/cardas etc) but i guess its time to lessen inventory anyway.
If anyone has any opinions/suggestions i am all ears.
Thanks
Rgds

 

[neo]

Hey! dinayaar
It's intresting to know about your change in prefrence of sound.
So what made you give up on the arcams?

I guess we all go through the yo yo of warm vs detailed sound & some of my audiophile friends say that most end up on the warmer side.

With all your experience you'll mostly be sure of what you want.
I hope you are ceratin about your prefence b4 you decide & it's not just a change in mood or fatigue of geting the right set up.
All the best
Cheers.

 

[reignofchaos]

I was around when Jim and Behram had come. It was great meeting them and listening to some very interesting tracks from their collection. It was the first time I was listening to the Emerald Physics with a tube amp powering the mid/high compression driver.

When I arrived, the passive Odyssey Etesian was powering the Shindo Montille+Odyssey Stratos combination. It sounded very very transparent and clean. It had the emotional involvement that one yearns for in a good setup and had beautiful accurate bass free of cabinet colorations and resonances. The only real problem was that due to the passive pre, the setup wasn't as loud as one would have wanted to be. The pre essentially seemed to add no signature of its own to the sound.

Later Sridhar changed it to the Shindo Auriges preamp and immediately the much needed voltage gain was there and so was the silky smooth midrange. However it did have a significant issue - the amp had too much bloom in the mid bass compared to the etesian. I've heard this preamp in my setup and it was really beautiful. However it just didn't gel too well with the CS2.

Even then, its easy to appreciate the transparency of the speaker. The soundstage it throws out is just gigantic and extends way beyond the physical dimensions of the speaker and extends till the walls of the room. Also it has this uncanny ability to give one that special "Live" feel when playing the right recordings. It especially shines with live rock but works beautifully across all genres of music.

To cut short, if you have the space in your room, these speakers are a daylight robbery. No box speaker can even remotely come close to them at their price point.

 

[arj]

Anyway before u guys doze of i want to add that i have decided on my integrated after a friend of min e was kind enough to loan me his (earlier series mammoth) for the weekend. I love this MARANTZ PM 11S 2.
Trebles, mids to die for, fantastic build, very precise controls and all in all a VFM option if i compare it to some integrateds that sell in the 1.5/2L bracket.This amp may not appeal to the young guy wanting real excitement and attack but it works for me. I felt and confirmed later that tons of my cables will not work on this set up(transparent/cardas etc) but i guess its time to lessen inventory anyway.
If anyone has any opinions/suggestions i am all ears.

Dinyar, if you could try to get one..one of a Classe Int Amps should be a very good choice...espcially due to being in the same stables as the B&W

Electrocompaniet is another brand whose Int amps you might really enjoy.. Sugdens new A21 series are also supposedly very good.

Problem would be getting them in India

regarding marantz..it is one of those brands which are quite underrated due to their entry level offerings. but if you really look at it it has a rather long tradition in high quality equipment !

 

[Asit]

When I arrived, the passive Odyssey Etesian was powering the Shindo Montille+Odyssey Stratos combination. It sounded very very transparent and clean. It had the emotional involvement that one yearns for in a good setup and had beautiful accurate bass free of cabinet colorations and resonances. The only real problem was that due to the passive pre, the setup wasn't as loud as one would have wanted to be. The pre essentially seemed to add no signature of its own to the sound.

Thanks ROC for your independent input, I really appreciate it. I am not expecting the Stratos to compete with the Shindo power amp, but can you kindly compare, for whatever it is worth? Also, the lack of desirable volume with the etesian pre you are talking about, is that with the Shindo power amp (because it has 15 wpc) alone or with the stratos as well?

Later Sridhar changed it to the Shindo Auriges preamp and immediately the much needed voltage gain was there and so was the silky smooth midrange. However it did have a significant issue - the amp had too much bloom in the mid bass compared to the etesian. I've heard this preamp in my setup and it was really beautiful. However it just didn't gel too well with the CS2.

In the penultimate sentence above, which pre are you talking about? I suppose you are talking about the Shindo, right? Also, are these CS2 speakers from Emarald Physics or Thiel?

Just one more question: Did you hear the Etesian with the Operetta? If yes, please describe your experience briefly (please ignore the style of my questions, lately I am looking a lot at the CBSE 12 board question papers ).

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Guys,
Ya have heard the Electros quite a bit. Had even started a thread on them when we were keen to import and distribute them. Have heard the classe integrateds too but its difficult to justify price to performance even after a few drinks. U are right on the image being diluted ARJ, similar to the Toyota/Lexus scenario i guess. I have a nice email from them explaining a few clarifications i sought. The components used are top class and the amplifier delivers. This is the biggest integrated in the reference line and replaces the 11S1 which i got home to try. Arj Electro is available in BBay with bill/warranty if anyone is interested.

Neo i could definately live with the Arcams too, bi amp was good but the marantz is very smooth. At the price, with a 3 yr warranty this mammoth is great VFM. It retails at 4500 USD or there abouts.
Arcam has more attack but the marantz is more musical. As i mentioned i rarely listen to what i did earlier and this works for me.

Rgds

 

[Asit]

Hi dinyaar,

Like neo, I am also interested to know what made you dump the Arcam. Well the Marantz 11S2 is supposed to be very good, it is also much more expensive than the Arcam A38, so supposed to be 'better'. But, I am a bit surprised to find that it is even better than the bi-amped Arcam, or you are just talking about the single A38.

Note added later: Just after posting, I just found that you have answered the question. Sorry, should have checked before submission.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Asit,
With fairly sensitive speeakers (close to 90db and above) the Arcam A38 is a very good amplifier. It wont scream at u, nor will it really dig deep( its a small amp) but is very musical. Great detail, clean highs, nics mids, fairly good low end. Pair it with some MA or similar and u have very good HIFI. The preamp in the integrated is superb. Pricing about a lac. Add the power amp P38 (identical power section to the A38) which costs about 70K , the combo costs 1.70/1.75 depending where u are. What u get are 2 well built amps that u can use as a pre/power or Bi amp. I prefered the latter as i mentioned.
The integrated has an intellegent and well thought out list of features.My neice has one and she loves it.
The marantz to me was a smoother amplifier with lesser attack but better highs(more natural though this is subjective) and fantastic mids, with an average bass. It is a more full bodied sound which is very relaxing. Detailing, seperation, soundstaging is good too. Comparable in fit and finish to anything. Its a mammoth of an amplifier. See Asit i like the Mcintosh for what it offers but some feel its a rubbish,coloured amp and i can also appreciate what the bryston( VV different) brings .For what my musical tastes are becoming the marantz is a super amp. BTW the marantz also pairs well with B&W and loads of marantz reference gear is showcased with the B&W 800 series abroad. Actually i requested a very close friend of mine living in sgpore to A/B the marantz 11S2 with the Accu E 350. Now we are friends for the last 35 yrs and know each others tastes entirely. He felt the Accu was harsh and preferred the marantz overall. I have even heard a simple no fuss PM 7001 with my speakers and even that sounded good. Now that amp costs about 25K and i cant think of a better budget amp.
I have always had this fixation on accuphase and thought i would explore the option but even in sgpore the Accu is double the price. I am not prepared to shell that much. This Marantz will retail in a while at about 2.45L but i got it at a much much better price which made it an easy decision.
Rgds

 

[reignofchaos]

Thanks ROC for your independent input, I really appreciate it. I am not expecting the Stratos to compete with the Shindo power amp, but can you kindly compare, for whatever it is worth? Also, the lack of desirable volume with the etesian pre you are talking about, is that with the Shindo power amp (because it has 15 wpc) alone or with the stratos as well?

Well they are as different as say tea and wine . The Stratos is way more neutral, has way more drive and behaves like how a good solid state muscle amp must. It has incredible dynamic control over drivers. At the same time, it does have a very nice midrange for a solid state. However if I were to make a decision between the Stratos and the Jaton Operatta, I'd choose the latter any day of the week. Its cleaner, smoother sounding, has a silky smooth almost tube like midrange and very good bass control - maybe not as good as the Stratos but good enough. It also has a nicer tone to the music.

The Shindo Montille power amp on the other hand is all about tone and only tone. Once you hear the tone of that power amp, you'd know what the Shindo magic is all about. The way it creates the ambience of the recording is just unbelievable. You can practically see/hear/feel the musicians right there. The only thing probably missing is the smell . Is not neutral, its not very powerful, its not the ultimate in soundstaging or any of those audiophile terms but the way it connects to the soul of the music is unbelievable. I can't really describe the sound in words. You have to experience it yourself. With the right speaker, this amp is probably the biggest hifi bargain in existence at the moment.

The Etesian is a very good pre but one has to be careful about matching it to the right power amp. It just didn't have enough gain for the Montille. However with the Stratos at 150 watt on tap, it shouldn't be an issue.

Another option for a pre that I'd suggest is the Lyrita Audio tube preamp. Its a very nice pre at a very good price, made in India. I use one which I've modified quite a bit and I believe it punches way beyond its price class.

In the penultimate sentence above, which pre are you talking about? I suppose you are talking about the Shindo, right? Also, are these CS2 speakers from Emarald Physics or Thiel?

Just one more question: Did you hear the Etesian with the Operetta? If yes, please describe your experience briefly (please ignore the style of my questions, lately I am looking a lot at the CBSE 12 board question papers ).

I meant the Emerald Physics. I'm not sure where Thiel came into the picture. I haven't heard the Etesian with the Operatta. Maybe we should try this sometime and I'll let you know my experience. Sridhar are you listening?

 

[odyssey]

Asit
a Clarification on the Etesian - it is a passive pre which means it acts as an attenuator only, the max gain is unity. This means that at the max volume the preamp is in essence bypassed and directly connected to the amplifier. If the track/source is high enough, then the stratos at 150W is plenty for any reasonably efficient speaker. I have a customer who uses this with 87 dB speakers at max of 3 o' clock volume. In music passages that are lower in overall volume, you will have to raise the volume a bit more. With a 90 dB speaker, you essentially have the equivalent of a 300W amplifier, I think gain will be a non-issue for you.

ROC has nailed it well when he said the Shindo is about tone and only tone, yes it does many other things that some people look for but its all about tone with massive amounts of musical detail (not the detail that is associated with harshness). You dont compare the Etesian with the Shindo pre since they both do different things and are designed for different applications. Simply put the Shindo allows you to see/experience into the music (or performance) in a way that I cant really describe. Dinyaar's friends are very familiar with live music and the sound of instruments, they look for tone and purity of tone during playback. Very few systems achieve this. They immediately spotted this in the Shindo the moment we put it in.
As ROC said, the Etesian is neutral (or about as neutral as preamps get) whereas the Shindo pre is colored. Which one do you want (putting aside monetary constraints) is a matter of preference. Most people think that they want neutrality but in reality very few really want it when they hear it.

between the Stratos and Operetta - I do agree with ROC that the Operetta has a different sonic signature compared to the Stratos. Overall it has a much more smoother presentation, however does not have the bass authority of the stratos, in addition TBH, dont know how it will mate with the vast majority of speakers out there as its a relatively new amp. The Stratos on the other hand does well with the majority of speakers. I like both ... frankly depends on what you want to achieve and at the end of the day what your system synergy ends up like (pls dont discount this....extremely important)

ROC must have tried out the Lyrita + Operetta so he can comment on this combo, I may have heard it as his place but now I dont remember. If it sounds good, then the Lyrita preamp (with mods) may be the way to go, you may have the best of both worlds this way The Operetta also allows one to upgrade to 5-ch in the future should you ever want.

BTW, not that anyone cares but my dream system (if I can afford it) will be an all Shindo setup, or at least the Shindo pre/power with the Shindo speakers .... first I need a bigger listening room

cheers

 

[Asit]

I haven't heard the Etesian with the Operatta. Maybe we should try this sometime and I'll let you know my experience. Sridhar are you listening?

Ya, good idea!

Well, I guess Sridhar will post his impression on this too (because this was one of the combination tried at that audition, perhaps before you arrived) after dinyaar's 2nd hand report due perhaps tomorrow when dinyaar hears from his friend Jim and Jim's friend Behram.

ROC, do you think Lyrita's valve preamp will give a clean transparent sound? I know Viren is a well-respected person (along with his Lyrita) and personally I have read his posts in other forums (although I am not a member) and very respectful of him, but somehow (perhaps from reading posts on it here or elsewhere?) I have the impression that it may not give a clean enough sound to befit the cleanliness of the stratos or the operetta. Actually this pre was always on my mind, but was looking for better alternatives for the price, hence was looking elsewhere (e.g. the Promitheus etc). If I am making absolutely NO sense, do NOT hesitate to say so.

Now if YOU can audition the etesian with the operetta, then two purposes will be served. Firstly, you can compare this combo with the etesian+stratos combo and the issue of speaker drivability. Secondly, since you had the operetta at home with the lyrita pre for a few days, you would also be able to detect the differences between the two pres when coupled with the same power amp (operetta). It is very much possible to audition these with same set of speakers as in your home (the tiny dancers).

Thanks a lot for the inputs.

 

[Asit]

Hi Sridhar,

I was so engrossed in writing the post in response to ROC's last post, I did not notice you also came with a response. Thanks a lot! There is a lot for me in these posts from you and ROC.

I have one question specifically for you. In your list of gears auditioned last Saturday, I see the combination of Etesian+Operetta with Usher tiny and mini dancers. These have average sensitivity, if I am not mistaken. How was the gain and drivability of the speakers in this combination, compared with the etesian+stratos combo ?

 

[odyssey]

The folks from Mumbai dont play very loud, so overall gain wasnt an issue, we never tried to go very high. The Ushers have about 85 dB efficiency (below average in efficiency) but are not hard to drive speakers (Impedance does not dip low). The Shindo amp can drive it reasonably well to about medium volume. Between the Operetta and the Stratos, volume will not be a big consideration, not with 90 dB efficient speakers.

cheers

 

[reignofchaos]

Ya, good idea!

Well, I guess Sridhar will post his impression on this too (because this was one of the combination tried at that audition, perhaps before you arrived) after dinyaar's 2nd hand report due perhaps tomorrow when dinyaar hears from his friend Jim and Jim's friend Behram.

ROC, do you think Lyrita's valve preamp will give a clean transparent sound? I know Viren is a well-respected person (along with his Lyrita) and personally I have read his posts in other forums (although I am not a member) and very respectful of him, but somehow (perhaps from reading posts on it here or elsewhere?) I have the impression that it may not give a clean enough sound to befit the cleanliness of the stratos or the operetta. Actually this pre was always on my mind, but was looking for better alternatives for the price, hence was looking elsewhere (e.g. the Promitheus etc). If I am making absolutely NO sense, do NOT hesitate to say so.

Now if YOU can audition the etesian with the operetta, then two purposes will be served. Firstly, you can compare this combo with the etesian+stratos combo and the issue of speaker drivability. Secondly, since you had the operetta at home with the lyrita pre for a few days, you would also be able to detect the differences between the two pres when coupled with the same power amp (operetta). It is very much possible to audition these with same set of speakers as in your home (the tiny dancers).

Thanks a lot for the inputs.

The lyrita was a little muddy out of the box. I had to change the stock tubes to better ones, changed some of the caps in the PSU and finally dropped the overall gain of the circuit. Now it sounds brilliant. Very very transparent for a tube pre.

 

[arj]

Asit
Most people think that they want neutrality but in reality very few really want it when they hear it.

So very true !:clapping:

 

[thevortex]

What was a very good thread started by Asit has now morphed and grown into a veritable treasure trove of information, reflections, fact and opinions! Can it get any better? I doubt it...

Thank you Asit, Cranky, Dinyaar, ROC, Odyssey, SquareWave and everybody else for regaling us all here with your thoughts and opinions. I learned a lot. Or at least I like to think so

 

[dinyaar]

Hi guys,
Thank u thevortex. I learn a lot too.

Another experiment done last night and from very early this morning only on interlinks. Basically the point here is that cables are damn system specific. I have just replaced the amplifier and my cardas golden ref, Transparent Music link Super sound disgusting. The transparent was superb with the bryston, edgy with the arcam and rubbish on the marantz. The cardas was rubbish on the bryston, lovely on the arcam and i will still confirm on this marantz. Luckily i have an old VDH D102 Mk 3 which sounds superb. The kimbers are good too but the kimber silvers have a little too much energy while the all copper kimbers are pretty good. These 4/5K interlinks are sounding better than cables costing 10 times more.

Am sorry Asit for posting this on your thread as i know it does not help in your amp search but this seems to be the only thread i participate in and hence this irrelevant info for whoever it may help.
Rgds

 

[Asit]

Am sorry Asit for posting this on your thread as i know it does not help in your amp search
Rgds

See, the amp is not an isolated equipment. Ultimately we are interested in the sound and for that you need a source, a pair of speakers and some cables. We read everywhere that cables are also to be regarded as part of the system and the system synergy is important. I also understand it from my very basic naive point of view. In this context, your experimentation with different cables as you change your amp from the Brystons to the Arcam and then to the Marantz is another little piece of ACTUAL information and hence is relevant for the members to be aware of this as well. As I have said it before and let me say this again, I regard this thread not as one for coming to know the name of a few amps and their price and availability, but as a general exchange of views and facts in relation to the subject of amps even if it may be only peripheral. Thanks for sharing your findings.

BTW, still waiting on your report as you hear it from your friends, but I do not want to pressurize you in the middle of a working day. Do it whenever you get the information and have some free time as well.