Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

[dinyaar]

Hi Asit,
I will dig out as much info i can from Jim. Problem is i feel he will be totally confused about the amps plus the fact that he was basically just trying to evaluate the speakers and i doubt he was really listening to the different amps. I hope u follow what i mean. I did tell him to listen to the amps carefully but i doubt he did. Another thing to note is his scorn for most SS amps and the sound which is another problem. I have heard this one phrase (sounds like any other SS) very often from him and a few others. Anyway he returns this evening.
I feel Shridhar will be in a better position to really answer. I know he will be able to give u a better feedback. One thing is certain that i have to meet Shridhar after the amount of positive feedback i have been given.:clapping:
Rgds

 

[square_wave]

Hi guys,
I have just replaced the amplifier and my cardas golden ref, Transparent Music link Super sound disgusting.

I would have loved to see the look on dinyaar's face hyeah:

The perils of being an audiophile

 

[square_wave]

For Asit, the amps in question are the Stratos and Operetta.
ROC SAID
Well they are as different as say tea and wine . The Stratos is way more neutral, has way more drive and behaves like how a good solid state muscle amp must. It has incredible dynamic control over drivers. At the same time, it does have a very nice midrange for a solid state. However if I were to make a decision between the Stratos and the Jaton Operatta, I'd choose the latter any day of the week. Its cleaner, smoother sounding, has a silky smooth almost tube like midrange and very good bass control - maybe not as good as the Stratos but good enough. It also has a nicer tone to the music.

I would more or less agree to ROC here. But I prefer the stratos over the Jaton. I prefer to keep the amplifier as neutral as possible and I like the control a powerful SS amp have over the drivers. Another reason why I picked the stratos is the mid-range which I find quite nice compared to most other traditional SS amps.
I prefer to adjust the tone using a tube preamplifier where I can tube-roll and get what I want.

Hope this helps.

 

[Asit]

Square_wave,
Long time, no see !!!

Looks like I may have to visit Bangalore after all to resolve the stratos-operetta degenreacy. If that is not possible in the near future, and I am going to buy from ARN, Sridhar may have to come to my rescue, with my musical preference as input.

Tonality is important for me. I have heard most of the musicians live and on many occasions even without microphones. Usually I am looking for that. If you look at my post describing the Quad pre-power audition, you would notice that that's one thing (especially in instruments like Sitar, not so much in vocals) I found lacking in my nad. That's when I switched to my old HK amp. Another reason for the switch was more speed and more dynamic headroom for the transients.

Which one of the two produce a better tonality? I know this is a bit subjective, perhaps; but it should really not be.

However, let me also ask, from the records available, which one is the more reliable in terms of not breaking down and blown fuses etc?

 

[dinyaar]

I would have loved to see the look on dinyaar's face hyeah:

The perils of being an audiophile

Hahaha yes yes Square wave i will see the funny side too but after a while.
Actually the Cardas is ancient and bought used for 150 USD but i paid good money for the Transparent. That too was a part exchange so i dont feel that bad.
I will be having a garage sale soon. Cardas,Transparent, Supra, VDH and kimbers are all on the Hitlist.
On a serious note its not much of a problem selling used cables as the new local retail is always escalating.
Rgds

 

[Asit]

I will be having a garage sale soon. Cardas,Transparent, Supra, VDH and kimbers are all on the Hitlist.

Okay, let me know ahead of time before others know about it. I am sure I'll get some early-bird extra discount

 

[odyssey]

Hi Asit
I am not sure what I can add here. As I mentioned before synergy is important and I have already written to you suggesting a way for you to try it out. There are no absolutes here, if there were there would be only a few brands around. I cant tell you how it will sound on your Cantons since I havent heard them. If I had to go blind, the Lyrita + Operetta/Stratos will do enough justice, the tube rolling and mods on the Lyrita will probably provide good VFM. Odyssey has been our best selling power amp so far for us. Odyssey has a great lineage and Klaus is known for great products. Operetta is very new in this field and it will remain an underground story even in the future. That in itself does not make it a bad amp/brand. If you are looking for great tone, I would (again blindly without knowing your source or speakers) just say go with a tube pre. If you can afford it the Shindo is the thing for tone, period! If you can afford it I would say go with the Shindo pre/power with your speaker and you will probably never look back but then again this combo will be expensive.
Tone is important for me as well, which is also I suspect why Dinyaar's friends and me got along well...since our tastes/preferences are similar. Generally people who look for tone will spend a lot more on upstream components than on the speaker, are you one of them?
Which one has better tone? I would say the Odyssey tends to be more neutral than the Operetta, that does not mean that the tone of one is better than the other, it depends on which way you want to go? you want something more neutral or do you want something a bit less solid state, you see this also depends on what your other components are along with your tastes...

cheers

Square_wave,
Long time, no see !!!

Looks like I may have to visit Bangalore after all to resolve the stratos-operetta degenreacy. If that is not possible in the near future, and I am going to buy from ARN, Sridhar may have to come to my rescue, with my musical preference as input.

Tonality is important for me. I have heard most of the musicians live and on many occasions even without microphones. Usually I am looking for that. If you look at my post describing the Quad pre-power audition, you would notice that that's one thing (especially in instruments like Sitar, not so much in vocals) I found lacking in my nad. That's when I switched to my old HK amp. Another reason for the switch was more speed and more dynamic headroom for the transients.

Which one of the two produce a better tonality? I know this is a bit subjective, perhaps; but it should really not be.

However, let me also ask, from the records available, which one is the more reliable in terms of not breaking down and blown fuses etc?

 

[Asit]

Generally people who look for tone will spend a lot more on upstream components than on the speaker, are you one of them?

This question is not applicable to me as you know I have not chopped and changed my system at all for so many years. Never had the inclination or the money to keep on changing the gear every now and then. I grew up from childhood listening to a HMV tuntable and box and a Hitachi spool recorder. Then after a few 2-in-1 kind of systems in early 80's as a student in the US, I finally bought an all Technics low end system of separates which had a cassette player, a TT (no CDP) in 1986 on a going-out-of -business-kind of sale for a total of well under a thousand dollars with a pair of speakers included. Then finally in 1989 in Germany, I got a decent system, the core of which still exists. Here I was bowled over completely by those speakers and bought them. But recently when I bought my new CDP, I paid some attention to the tonality (especially of vocals) and found the CA 740c quite satisfactory within my budget (under 50K).

I have not yet discarded the Etesian pre, you know. If people like you (Sridhar), ROC and SQ like it in combination with the stratos, that is a good beginning at least. I have to understand the difference of such a system with the Lyrita pre. And to complicate matters, ROC and you are suggesting the mods. Would Viren do the mods or I have to do it myself? How was it done, ROC? (I now have the price list from Viren).

 

[square_wave]

To add to the confusion.
Acoustic portrait (Corrson) now has a valve preamplifier in the range of 35k. This is a slightly lower version of the top of the line (78k) model. The design and case is the same but difference is the parts which again is as good as any 75k branded preamp. The top of the line uses some military grade stuff so is expensive. I would say a much better option over the lyrita preamp.
Corrson - India's only DIY Store for Hi-End Audio
Please note this model is not there on the page..The page shows the hi-end 78k model.

 

[Asit]

To add to the confusion.
Acoustic portrait (Corrson) now has a valve preamplifier in the range of 35k. This is a slightly lower version of the top of the line (78k) model. The design and case is the same but difference is the parts which again is as good as any 75k branded preamp. The top of the line uses some military grade stuff so is expensive. I would say a much better option over the lyrita preamp.
Corrson - India's only DIY Store for Hi-End Audio
Please note this model is not there on the page..The page shows the hi-end 78k model.

It's there on the web-page and is called NJ1, costs 28K. Isn't that the one, you meant? After you suggested to me the PM1 pre, I went to that site and found the NJ1. I actually also mention it in post no.6, which was a long post and at the very end of it I said that PM1 was too expensive for me, but was ready to consider the NJ1. But nobody responded and I interpreted that as a signal for not worth considering.

 

[square_wave]

No Asit. This is not the NJ1. This is basically the PM1 which comes in some three versions now depending on how much you are willing to spend on the quality of the parts.
One is the standard 78k model which I use. You have one below that (35k) and another one above the 78k model. That is a cost-no object model for people who want ultra-hiend.

 

[reignofchaos]

This question is not applicable to me as you know I have not chopped and changed my system at all for so many years. Never had the inclination or the money to keep on changing the gear every now and then. I grew up from childhood listening to a HMV tuntable and box and a Hitachi spool recorder. Then after a few 2-in-1 kind of systems in early 80's as a student in the US, I finally bought an all Technics low end system of separates which had a cassette player, a TT (no CDP) in 1986 on a going-out-of -business-kind of sale for a total of well under a thousand dollars with a pair of speakers included. Then finally in 1989 in Germany, I got a decent system, the core of which still exists. Here I was bowled over completely by those speakers and bought them. But recently when I bought my new CDP, I paid some attention to the tonality (especially of vocals) and found the CA 740c quite satisfactory within my budget (under 50K).

I have not yet discarded the Etesian pre, you know. If people like you (Sridhar), ROC and SQ like it in combination with the stratos, that is a good beginning at least. I have to understand the difference of such a system with the Lyrita pre. And to complicate matters, ROC and you are suggesting the mods. Would Viren do the mods or I have to do it myself? How was it done, ROC? (I now have the price list from Viren).

I did the mods myself. I can get the pre over to ARN and we can run a comparison. I have not heard the cheaper pre from Siva so won't comment. The higher end one is very good.

 

[Asit]

I did the mods myself. I can get the pre over to ARN and we can run a comparison. I have not heard the cheaper pre from Siva so won't comment. The higher end one is very good.

I cannot thank you enough, guys!

Now, since ROC also says Siva's premium pre (PM1) is very good, Square_wave, is there any chance of a peek into the little-brother version of the PM1 with the stratos? Will it match well with the stratos? The input imp of stratos is 10K I think. What is the output imp of the PM1-little-brother? I am getting kind of interested. Does the price include all taxes etc? How about shipping?

ROC, how much did the mods cost you?

 

[reignofchaos]

I cannot thank you enough, guys!

Now, since ROC also says Siva's premium pre (PM1) is very good, Square_wave, is there any chance of a peek into the little-brother version of the PM1 with the stratos? Will it match well with the stratos? The input imp of stratos is 10K I think. What is the output imp of the PM1-little-brother? I am getting kind of interested. Does the price include all taxes etc? How about shipping?

ROC, how much did the mods cost you?

Not too much - including everything it was around 5 grand.

 

[square_wave]

Hi Asit,
I have sent you a pm/mail.
I have not used this model. I have used the NJ-1 before picking up the PM-1. The NJ-1 was quite nice. Much better than a musical fidelity preamp costing some 50k which I had tried out earlier. This model should beat the NJ-1. Cost is higher than the NJ-1 and I believe that corrson has replaced the NJ series with these now.

 

[Asit]

Firstly, Cranky sorry for the late response. Yesterday I was busy doing some routine work at office and was communicating with the forum members at the same time and in the process, I did not notice your post. Right now I just discovered your post and am now responding to it. Please bear with me.

The Operettas are based on the LM3886 power amp chip from NatSemi. Given the spec (I've not seen the amp) I assume they are using two chips in parallel at about 32-35V power rails. This amp should be suitable for all speakers above 4 ohms, and it can tolerate a few dips below that no problem.

The nominal impedance of my Cantons are 4 Ohm, and I would presume they do not go down too much at certain frequencies judging from the ease it has been driven by low powered SS amps all these years.

As a side note, I am relocating to Calcutta soon. Maybe as soon as the end of April. I hope that by then you will have finalised your purchase and I can listen to some good music at your house in the near future.

You are very welcome to our humble home. However, it is very likely I will have decided by then (I am more or less there) but getting them in place may not happen by April, although I would very much like to have them as soon as possible. There are certain other constraints. I actually do not even have a proper place to keep the pre power combo. Although we live in a largish apartment, we have simply too much stuff, and currently for the last year or so, I am keeping my audio gear in a very shabby way. You will laugh the way I have kept my speakers now. But all this will change for the better with time.

I would say you will be fine with either amp.

Great to get the assurance, especially from a person like you.

What happened to the other candidates, and did you get around to listening to the Cadence again?

Well, there were not too many other candidates. Among pre/power, the only other candidates were the Quad pair and the Parasound pair. Almost nobody has heard the parasounds (P3/P23), so data available is pretty small (RahulH, our forum member got them recently). I have a feeling both the Operetta and the Stratos would be better than these. I may be wrong, but one has to make a decision.

Among integrateds, the Arcam and YBA Design SS stuff and the Cayin A-88T were also considered. But I wanted to explore the pre/power scenario this time, if possible. My idea was even if I settle for a cheap but decent pre, I can perhaps upgrade it to a better one later for a lower effective loss of money. Anyway, other options are not completely closed yet, but will come to a decision pretty quickly from now.

 

[dinyaar]

HI Guys,
Well heard a bit from my super auditioners so will post.
Stratos seems a very good SS. Control is the aspect that struck them first. More musical than some claimed super amps but certainly not what they would look for if buying an amplifier. The 'other' amplifier was much much better. More open and musical and true.
As i expected he is really confused as apart from Bglore, he has had similar auditions in Pune and now in bbay. Behram has taken my No as he wants some info on cdps and is interested in a friends Marantz SA 11 S1 so will discuss.

Shridhar the speaker did impress and seems to have potential. I believe the tweeter is being upgraded which makes the package even better.
Asit leave out that YBA design amplifier. All the other amps u are considering will work fine. BTW marantz is being launched officially with full back up. The downside is going to be the pricing yet again. U could look at a PM 15.

After i got my amp i have played it for about 15/20 hrs. On start up the amp has an thin sound that fills out in ten minutes and gets really smooth in the next 20 mins or so. It is not the most neutral but has very good tone. It feels much bigger than the rated 100W and drives effortlessly. Will play around with the power cords/speaker cables that i have over the weekend.

A friend of mine has dug up some reviews of the 11 S1 with the earlier HDAM (mine is the S2 with the HDAM 3 and the low hum from the transformer has been corre cted by additional casing )and the reviewers (Abs sound,stereophile) really raved about the tone of the amp. I think stereophile also reviewed the 11 series pre/power and rated it above many of the super amps but without 'that kit rack presence'.
Rgds

 

[odyssey]

Hi Dinyaar & others
this is correct. You see, the designer of the Stratos will say that the Stratos signature is a shade on the warm side of neutral, but that in itself does not give the picture of how it will sound. Your friends preferred the Operetta since they are tube lovers. They are not looking for a neutral sound. The Operetta tends to sound a bit more smoother all around whereas the Stratos seems more bare in its sound. More than the amps, the preamp will have a larger effect on the overall sound, so as I said before they will both work fine. Jim definitely preferred the Stratos over the ATI amps (which are primarily muscle amps for home theater). I will go with this preference too for music. I will go on a limb to say that the Stratos will be more true (in terms of amplification of what it receives) than the Operetta, so you see its back to the old question of what one wants hyeah:
On the EP, there are two new products - both of which we will get in a months time. One is probably replacing my current speakers (fingers crossed). I had such thoughts before multiple times, but I am probably so used to what I have that its difficult to just replace :sad:.
On the EP, yes, the entire design of the mid/tweeter is being changed - it will be a coaxial design for far better coherency. The idea is to now give it the coaxial advantages while still maintaining a true full range reproduction (20 Hz to 20 Khz at 0.5 dB variation, NOT 3 dB!!!), ofcourse this is equalized to achieve that. The new speaker will be far easier to drive and will be rated at 8 ohms (rather than the current 4 ohms) at 95 dB sensitivity.

On the Operetta - someone asked I believe as to what it will do at 2 ohms, I am given to understand that with 2-ch, it will go to 280 W at 2 ohms not a problem. The weight of the power supply + chassis is 40 lbs !! This does not include the amp modules at all, they are about 4 lbs each. The internal power supply is massive and is by far one of the largest I have seen in an amp at this cost.

cheers

 

[Asit]

The 'other' amplifier was much much better. More open and musical and true.

Is it correct to assume that the 'other' amp was the Shindo or was it the Operetta?

Asit leave out that YBA design amplifier.

Okay.

Some time ago (around December 2008), when I was preparing myself for the amp search, I have read most reviews available on the 11S1 (not S2) and they were superlative. The 15S1 has more mixed reviews, but mostly very very good. The original 15 amp (nor S1 or S2) was very massive looking (probably double the height of the current 15S1 or S2) and had superlative reviews.

Note added later: Just seeing Sridhar's post above, it seems the 'other' amp is the Operetta indeed.

 

[odyssey]

The other one was the Shindo