square_wave
Well-Known Member
Where is Asit ?
Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study
- Thread starter Asit
- Start date
reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
Cleaning his speakers - he started this morning, they must've been really dirty :lol:.
Today's a holiday in Calcutta - Family day, methinks, a midweek holiday is best spent with them
Wow cleaning speakers takes so long? :lol:
Sorry, folks! Sincere apologies to everybody for not actively participating in the forum for the last few days. I was busy with a few things, some of that I shall share with you now. I did log on to the forum for a second or two everyday just to check if I had any private messages.
First thing first. Yes, I was cleaning my speakers yesterday and had some private communication with cranky before I started. Last time I cleaned them must have been about 2-3 years ago and didn't remember how I did it. With a spanking new amp in the horizon, I did not want my very old speakers to have an inferiority complex. So I removed the metal grill and cleaned the dust over the cones very very carefully. Also cleaned the grills.
One of the things I was researching the past few days and weeks was in relation to sensitivity of speakers and how much power from amps is really needed to produce a reasonable sound level for home listening. This is an interesting subject by itself.
In the first post of this thread, the sensitivity of my Canton Karat 60 speakers is given as SPL (1W,1m) = 93.4 db (this is according to a scanned copy of the original technical specification for the speakers downloaded from the net). Since these are very old speakers, I wrote to Canton customer service asking for a verification of this number and also asked for the impedance versus frequency curve. The response from them was quite disappointing, to say the least. Firstly, after repeated e-mails, they never even addressed the issue of the impedance versus frequency plot, let alone sending it to me. And then, the guy quoted a number of 85 db and, referring to my number of 93.4db , wrote:
"sorry, this might be wrong or the result of older, differing measurement.
Today we give SPL (means power-input of 1 watt, power-output measured microfone distance 1 m from the speakers front). This was quiet different in the 80-ies !"
After that I sent them twice or thrice the scanned copy of their own technical specifications and asked them for a clarification basically pointing out that there it also says the SPL was measured with 1 W and at 1m distance, but they have NOT replied back. I even had a friend of mine living in Germany talk to them and came back with vague replies.
So what I make out of all this is that they do not have anymore the data (at least not easily accessible) of these old speakers, and as a result they are trying to be on the conservative side.
Then I sat down wondering about the sensitivity of speakers and how much is really needed for home level listening.
In my first post of this thread I did skip one information that was there in the technical specification, but I did not understand it then. It is called "Betriebsleistung" or Operating power. This is given as 1.8 Watts in the specifications.
Through a search in the Internet, I could come up with the following defintions:
Definition 1: The power required by each speaker to produce SPL of 86 db at a distance of 3m. (This is according to German standards called DIN 45 500)
(See post # 006 by "capstan" in Lautsprecherleistung vs. Verstrkerleistung - ..:: Bandmaschinen - Forum ::..)
Definition 2: The power required by each speaker to produce SPL of 96 db at a distance of 1m.
(Betriebsleistung im Lexikon)
The above definitions are approximately equivalent (keeping in mind that one has to add (subtract) 6db for halving (doubling) the on-axis distance from the speaker. Now in my case, with speakers of Betriebsleistung at 1.8W, it comes to about 93/94 db at 1W and at 1m (even for an impedance of 4 Ohms, assuming of course the 1.8 W is for the 4 Ohm impedance). In other words, the two pieces of information given in the scanned copy of the technical specs of my speakers, namely the Betriebsleistung of 1.8W and the SPL (1W,1m) = 93.4 db, are consistent with each other.
If Canton people made real measurements on my speakers (which have 4 Ohm imp) and then they just published numbers suitable for 8 Ohm imp (just to make the numbers look even better), even then the sensitivity cannot be lower than 90.4 db (subtracting 3 db from 93.4 db for halving the resistance from 8 Ohm to 4 Ohm because the required wattage is doubled according to the formula Power = V^2/R (V is Voltage and R is resistance or impedance) and one is supposed to add (subtract) 3db for each halving (doubling) of the required power).
Just for the sake of argument, as an example, let's assume my speakers have 85 db sensitivity. That means with 1 Watt of power delivered from the amp, and at a listening distance of 4m (which is more than what I have, approx 2.5 to 3 m is usually my listening position), the SPL is 85 db - 12 db = 73 db. Now If the volume setting is such that 4 Watts are drawn from the amp, the SPL at 4m is 73 db + 6 db = 79 db. And this is just from one speaker and ideally in a room with no reflections. So in reality, this should be quite loud for domestic purposes (not party level though). Similar kind of arguments are being used by the Harbeth owner and designer in the Harbeth users' forum. Not only that, he is even recommending low powered amps, because he thinks that way there is less of a chance of accidental burning of the speaker coils.
The only remaining area of contention is if there exist too many large dips of impedance at many frequencies between 100 Hz and 10K Hz (dips of speaker impedance means requirement of more power from the amp at those frequencies, according to the formula above relating power and impedance). There is actually a guideline that impedances should not dip more than 20% of the nominal impedance given. In my case then the min impedance is 3.2 Ohm.
Sorry for such a long post. I thought it is good to understand what specs regarding amp power and speaker sensitivity and impedance actually mean and other folks can also benefit from such a discussion.
First thing first. Yes, I was cleaning my speakers yesterday and had some private communication with cranky before I started. Last time I cleaned them must have been about 2-3 years ago and didn't remember how I did it. With a spanking new amp in the horizon, I did not want my very old speakers to have an inferiority complex. So I removed the metal grill and cleaned the dust over the cones very very carefully. Also cleaned the grills.
One of the things I was researching the past few days and weeks was in relation to sensitivity of speakers and how much power from amps is really needed to produce a reasonable sound level for home listening. This is an interesting subject by itself.
In the first post of this thread, the sensitivity of my Canton Karat 60 speakers is given as SPL (1W,1m) = 93.4 db (this is according to a scanned copy of the original technical specification for the speakers downloaded from the net). Since these are very old speakers, I wrote to Canton customer service asking for a verification of this number and also asked for the impedance versus frequency curve. The response from them was quite disappointing, to say the least. Firstly, after repeated e-mails, they never even addressed the issue of the impedance versus frequency plot, let alone sending it to me. And then, the guy quoted a number of 85 db and, referring to my number of 93.4db , wrote:
"sorry, this might be wrong or the result of older, differing measurement.
Today we give SPL (means power-input of 1 watt, power-output measured microfone distance 1 m from the speakers front). This was quiet different in the 80-ies !"
After that I sent them twice or thrice the scanned copy of their own technical specifications and asked them for a clarification basically pointing out that there it also says the SPL was measured with 1 W and at 1m distance, but they have NOT replied back. I even had a friend of mine living in Germany talk to them and came back with vague replies.
So what I make out of all this is that they do not have anymore the data (at least not easily accessible) of these old speakers, and as a result they are trying to be on the conservative side.
Then I sat down wondering about the sensitivity of speakers and how much is really needed for home level listening.
In my first post of this thread I did skip one information that was there in the technical specification, but I did not understand it then. It is called "Betriebsleistung" or Operating power. This is given as 1.8 Watts in the specifications.
Through a search in the Internet, I could come up with the following defintions:
Definition 1: The power required by each speaker to produce SPL of 86 db at a distance of 3m. (This is according to German standards called DIN 45 500)
(See post # 006 by "capstan" in Lautsprecherleistung vs. Verstrkerleistung - ..:: Bandmaschinen - Forum ::..)
Definition 2: The power required by each speaker to produce SPL of 96 db at a distance of 1m.
(Betriebsleistung im Lexikon)
The above definitions are approximately equivalent (keeping in mind that one has to add (subtract) 6db for halving (doubling) the on-axis distance from the speaker. Now in my case, with speakers of Betriebsleistung at 1.8W, it comes to about 93/94 db at 1W and at 1m (even for an impedance of 4 Ohms, assuming of course the 1.8 W is for the 4 Ohm impedance). In other words, the two pieces of information given in the scanned copy of the technical specs of my speakers, namely the Betriebsleistung of 1.8W and the SPL (1W,1m) = 93.4 db, are consistent with each other.
If Canton people made real measurements on my speakers (which have 4 Ohm imp) and then they just published numbers suitable for 8 Ohm imp (just to make the numbers look even better), even then the sensitivity cannot be lower than 90.4 db (subtracting 3 db from 93.4 db for halving the resistance from 8 Ohm to 4 Ohm because the required wattage is doubled according to the formula Power = V^2/R (V is Voltage and R is resistance or impedance) and one is supposed to add (subtract) 3db for each halving (doubling) of the required power).
Just for the sake of argument, as an example, let's assume my speakers have 85 db sensitivity. That means with 1 Watt of power delivered from the amp, and at a listening distance of 4m (which is more than what I have, approx 2.5 to 3 m is usually my listening position), the SPL is 85 db - 12 db = 73 db. Now If the volume setting is such that 4 Watts are drawn from the amp, the SPL at 4m is 73 db + 6 db = 79 db. And this is just from one speaker and ideally in a room with no reflections. So in reality, this should be quite loud for domestic purposes (not party level though). Similar kind of arguments are being used by the Harbeth owner and designer in the Harbeth users' forum. Not only that, he is even recommending low powered amps, because he thinks that way there is less of a chance of accidental burning of the speaker coils.
The only remaining area of contention is if there exist too many large dips of impedance at many frequencies between 100 Hz and 10K Hz (dips of speaker impedance means requirement of more power from the amp at those frequencies, according to the formula above relating power and impedance). There is actually a guideline that impedances should not dip more than 20% of the nominal impedance given. In my case then the min impedance is 3.2 Ohm.
Sorry for such a long post. I thought it is good to understand what specs regarding amp power and speaker sensitivity and impedance actually mean and other folks can also benefit from such a discussion.
I may be overstepping my boundaries here since I am not an electronics expert, but as I understand it, low power amps will generate "square waves" when you try to drive them at full volume on a speaker load and these square waves will damage or melt the speaker coils. On the other hand the danger from high power amps is in causing too much excursion of the cones and tearing them. Is that approximately correct?
Please correct my mis-understanding if I am wrong.
Regards
Gobble, you have raised a potentially interesting point of damage of speakers from clipping of amplifiers. Now in my example above with 4 Watts of amp power, the 4 Watts is the RMS power that the amp is delivering continuously. I suppose every well-constructed amp has reserves beyond that continuously deliverable power for dynamic headroom.
Now here is another issue (being discussed in Enough Valve power 10w into 86db Speakers - 2 Channel Debate - All things HiFI and AV - HiFi WigWam - HiFi Forum, especially look at post #18 of page 1 raising the issue and the first post (#21) of page 2 providing an answer). The question of damage of tweeters resulting from clipping is really relevant for high wattage. A few Watts are not going to melt anything, they have a minimum rating high enough to withstand low wattage.
What do you say, cranky?
Now here is another issue (being discussed in Enough Valve power 10w into 86db Speakers - 2 Channel Debate - All things HiFI and AV - HiFi WigWam - HiFi Forum, especially look at post #18 of page 1 raising the issue and the first post (#21) of page 2 providing an answer). The question of damage of tweeters resulting from clipping is really relevant for high wattage. A few Watts are not going to melt anything, they have a minimum rating high enough to withstand low wattage.
What do you say, cranky?
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Output power is sometimes a much misrepresented term.
If the speakers are above 86db and the impedance versus frequency curve is a civilized one, most 100watts amps should be able to drive them comfortably.
But watts does not tell you the full story. A well designed amplifier will have beefy power supplies and will be designed well. It will be able to handle peaks in the music and handle dips and peaks in the impedance with ease.
I will take a well designed 100 watter over a mass market 200 watter any day.
But sometimes the only way to find if an amp works for you is to check out some amps with some music you regularly listen to. Once I started listening to western classical I realized that I need lots of head room in the amp. Good recordings come with very low recording level (to accommodate peaks from getting chopped off) and high dynamics. To hear a very low volume violin you have to really turn up the volume then comes the crescendos which can make lesser amps whimper and run for cover. Lesser amps can make the crescendos sound screechy and blaring while a good one will be calm and composed and handle the music with ease.
Good amplifier is not necessarily high power but well designed with adequate power. They can be high powered too if you like concert level music.
If the speakers are above 86db and the impedance versus frequency curve is a civilized one, most 100watts amps should be able to drive them comfortably.
But watts does not tell you the full story. A well designed amplifier will have beefy power supplies and will be designed well. It will be able to handle peaks in the music and handle dips and peaks in the impedance with ease.
I will take a well designed 100 watter over a mass market 200 watter any day.
But sometimes the only way to find if an amp works for you is to check out some amps with some music you regularly listen to. Once I started listening to western classical I realized that I need lots of head room in the amp. Good recordings come with very low recording level (to accommodate peaks from getting chopped off) and high dynamics. To hear a very low volume violin you have to really turn up the volume then comes the crescendos which can make lesser amps whimper and run for cover. Lesser amps can make the crescendos sound screechy and blaring while a good one will be calm and composed and handle the music with ease.
Good amplifier is not necessarily high power but well designed with adequate power. They can be high powered too if you like concert level music.
OK. that post says <10W wont hurt noone. Sorry to digress, but I am sure many other non-technical audio bugs like me would like to understand this I am sure - How many watts does a 100W amp really deliver, when the volume pot is just barely audible, at half and at full volume for example?
Do the Watts delivered vary with loudness of music?
Is a 100W rms amp always delivering 100W of continuous power even at volume level of 1 unit above minimum?
I suspect speaker impedance is going to mess with a straightforward explanation of this, but I hope someone will try and answer my question.
My question may reflect my ignorance of electronics I am afraid, but please do not hesitate to tell me so.
Regards
Do the Watts delivered vary with loudness of music?
Is a 100W rms amp always delivering 100W of continuous power even at volume level of 1 unit above minimum?
I suspect speaker impedance is going to mess with a straightforward explanation of this, but I hope someone will try and answer my question.
My question may reflect my ignorance of electronics I am afraid, but please do not hesitate to tell me so.
Regards
At full volume, the amp should deliver the max power it is capable of delivering, I would suppose. At barely audible level, it is hard to say because the calibration for actual steady wattage vs volume knob setting is NOT linear and also vendor-dependent. Some vendors like Rotel (as stated by dinyaar in other threads) calibrate it such that one gets very loud sound at lowish settings of the volume knob. It has nothing to do with the max power that the amp is capable of delivering.
They certainly do. It is actually the conservation of energy at work here. If you have louder music as output, it means more energy and this energy has to come from somewhere. Power is just energy per unit time.
It's like a water tap, depending on the extent of opening the water flow varies upto a certain maximum flow (the max flow depends on factors like flow radius and water pressure at the tap etc).
As evident from the above, it is not. The amount is dependent on your volume knob setting, and the instantaneous impedance of the speakers (which in turn depends on the frequency spectrum of the music being played at that instance and the speaker's response at that frequency), although the real situation is mathematically more complex because any real sound is composed of many frequencies.
You can put together cranky's reply and mine. I think they are similar.
I hope the above is true. Do not worry about knowledge of electronics. Since I have studied Physics, during my undergraduate and graduate level I had to study some electronics most of which I have forgotten. I do research in a field of Physics known as Quantum Field Theories (mathematical modeling of nature at very very short distances and times) which has almost no relation to electronics, believe me.
Congratulations !:clapping:
Accuphase is apparently the Mercedes of Amps.. smoothness and luxuriousness personified. Although i have never heard of any accuphase being edgy except the entry level (205 ? ) even if it were your speakers would have literally Spat it out.
Are they breaking in now ?
Hi Arj,
Thanks. Yes the amplifier is being run in.
Recently i asked a friend who lives in sgpore to try and A/B the Accu with the Marantz PM 11S2 as i could not. The amps sell at about 1.5 for the M and about 3.3L to 3.5L for the A. He mentioned all the positives of the Accu over the marantz but also mentioned a 'bity' top end. The vendor there then swapped the 350 with a 'run in' E 250 (lower in power/heirachy) and my friend Jai felt things improved. Basically an out of the box accu can sound harsh. So this was a concern but in five minutes of hearing the amp u know what it does. The Marantz is a good amp too, music flows smoothly and is also built superbly.
The accuphase is very dynamic, slightly rich tonality and phenomenal bass. It treats my speaker as a toy and plays loud with ease. Unfortunately have not been able to hear it as much as i would like
In these two years of looking for amps this is the only amp i have heard that plays 'ALL' music well. Am not just raving because i now have this but this even dishes out pop, disco ( a forum member Anil Kumar sent me some ) in an acceptatble way. This amp may not be for the 'purist' who may prefer more dry/neutral sound.
Rgds
Thanks. Yes the amplifier is being run in.
Recently i asked a friend who lives in sgpore to try and A/B the Accu with the Marantz PM 11S2 as i could not. The amps sell at about 1.5 for the M and about 3.3L to 3.5L for the A. He mentioned all the positives of the Accu over the marantz but also mentioned a 'bity' top end. The vendor there then swapped the 350 with a 'run in' E 250 (lower in power/heirachy) and my friend Jai felt things improved. Basically an out of the box accu can sound harsh. So this was a concern but in five minutes of hearing the amp u know what it does. The Marantz is a good amp too, music flows smoothly and is also built superbly.
The accuphase is very dynamic, slightly rich tonality and phenomenal bass. It treats my speaker as a toy and plays loud with ease. Unfortunately have not been able to hear it as much as i would like
In these two years of looking for amps this is the only amp i have heard that plays 'ALL' music well. Am not just raving because i now have this but this even dishes out pop, disco ( a forum member Anil Kumar sent me some ) in an acceptatble way. This amp may not be for the 'purist' who may prefer more dry/neutral sound.Rgds
Hi arj,
Since we are discussing amp wattage and speaker matching with sensitivity and frequency response, and since you have a Leben CS600 (only about 30wpc) and Merlin bookshelfs, could you kindly describe your experience? I know you like the combination very much, but could you be more specific with a bit more details!
Can you tell me more about your speakers? Then please tell us how loud you can go at which volume setting and what kind of dynamic headroom do you have? Also kindly put in a word or two about the control over bass. What sort of music you listen to would also play a role here, I would guess.
Since we are discussing amp wattage and speaker matching with sensitivity and frequency response, and since you have a Leben CS600 (only about 30wpc) and Merlin bookshelfs, could you kindly describe your experience? I know you like the combination very much, but could you be more specific with a bit more details!
Can you tell me more about your speakers? Then please tell us how loud you can go at which volume setting and what kind of dynamic headroom do you have? Also kindly put in a word or two about the control over bass. What sort of music you listen to would also play a role here, I would guess.
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square_wave
Well-Known Member
Technically speaking, a watt is a watt irrespective of tubes or SS. But from my experience a well designed 30watt per channel tube amp usually has similar drive and headroom to a 100 watt per channel SS amp. Perhaps more technical guys like Cranky and Arj could chime in here..
Vinny, Cranky=technical guru. Arj=layman trying to makse sense of overload of Info !
Asit,
my experience..
Watts are watts and tube watts are no different from SS watts. Watt..er What is important is the capability of the amp to retain control of the speaker at all frequencies and some rated 25 watter can actually do it better than another 60 watt amp.the difference being on the power output (rather current flow capability) across all frequencies.
From my simplistic view, sensitivity and impedance values pubished do not give a good picture of the amps synergy as impedance of each speaker is different at each frequency and is not linear in its change hence a 8ohm nominal impedance does not mean anything as in some speakers (like B&W) it can drop below 3 Ohms in lower frequencies around 30-40 hz.
another factor which comes into factor with speakers is the phase..and that too varies with frequency and adds a factor on power requirements. that is why dynaudios are tougher to drive inspite of their sensitivity.
so a 89db speaker can be tougher to drive than a 85 db one .
Similiarly in case of Amps..100W really does not tell you enough..one also need to know how it fares at different impedances as well as how "quickly" it can handle changes in volume requirements. (Dynamic power/slew rate etc). unfortunately no manufacturer gives the output curve of the amplifier.
so both speakers and amplifiers have curves across the frequency spectrum and a match must be made across all ie at all times the amp power output capability > speaker requirement for required SPL.
I used to own a JMR twin speaker pair at one time.. it is 89dB at 4 ohms and could have been a tough load but can be easily run by a 9W T amp to ear bleeding levels.
I currently use Merlin TSMs which are 87dB at 8 ohms and do not drop below 6 ohms. they were run earlier by my Sugden A21a with no problem. ..untill i put ion the Leben
The Leben is 32W into 8 and around the same into 4 ohms and 12 o clock is deafening in my 14 X11 room but *may* run out of steam if played loud in a really big room. I usually play ay 10-o clock position
regarding the sound
1. with the 6L6GC tubees, Very balanced across the spectrum and able to pick on all subtleties of the music as well. i believe with the EL34 the midrange gains prominance at the expense of the bass
2. bass is amazing. Tight and deep. I have stopped using a Sub now which i used to..the merlins are sealed box hence the bass is pretty tuneful but rolls off rapidly below around 43Hz
3. Tonality/texture of music especially the midrange are what sets its apart..the first few times it sounded magical (especially after swapping the original Sovtek power tubes)
Overall the music sounds really great..non fatiguing, smooth and resolving with a very powerful sound and it flows very Easy. the Sugden has an easier sound but less tight bass although the midrange is again very good although lesser in details.(well it better be so..the leben is 3 times the price but thought a comparison might bring perspective !)
I earlier used transparent ICs and the sound was more aggressive but with Solitone ICs the sound is more open and soundstage more laid back.
i know of leben running Harbeths, Merlins, proacs, Ref 3a de capo and Audio notes very well. and these are all easy loads although sensitivity may not be very high. not sure of how they will play tougher speakers but i would think the Bass is what would suffer.
I listen to Rock (80s kind), vocals both female and male (English and Hindi), Jazz , Fusion as well as some indian and western classical.
Does this help ? glad to help in case of any more questions.
Just a note: from what I have learnt Synergy between the Amp and the speaker is the second Most critical after room-speaker synergy...and it is not easy to guess it from specs !
I agree with Cranky..shortlis based on specs ( a bit loos boundaries) and then use other factors..ideally a home audition or else asking around from others experiences.
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Although I have no idea what you mean by the last sentence above, let me just raise the question of soft-cilipping again. If the tube amps are pushed to the limit, and clipping takes place, albeit, softly in comparison to that in SS amps, the softer variety of clipping actually would perhaps mean not as large frequencies in the mix and hence less harmful for the tweeters! Is that correct? In any case, as I have remarked in the above, clipping in low-wattage amp perhaps is not going to harm any hardware, anyway.
When I auditioned the Cayin A-88T tube amp, the guitar pieces of African artiste Ali Farka Toure (no idea if anybody is familiar with him here) sounded magical, that part of the last sentence I understood. Even the Cadence VA-1 woke up a bit (to the maximum extent possible by it that day) to this guitar, if I remember correctly.
Most power and integrated SS amps (up to around lakh) do not double the power at half the impedance and generally the THD suffers a great deal as the impedance is lowered. According to what you have written above, that's not good then.
Well, what I make out from above is that more than the wattage of the amp and sensitivity and nominal impedance of the speakers, the frequency response in terms of power for the amp and in terms of impedance for the speakers will determine the control of the amp over the speakers. Unfortunately as I have said in the earlier posts, I do not have such a plot for my Cantons, and I am not also going to get one from the Canton customer care or research/development team. Looks like this is going to be the most crucial aspect of my upgrade and this is something that can only be determined by home auditions. From the amp side, I am trying to make sure it is a decent enough amp.
My 20 year old HK amp has a "phase-correct loudness" button on the front. Sometimes, with a few source materials, I use it with good result. Is this something to do with what you have written above? (although I know what you have written above, frequency components of a sound do not all have the same phase).
It is good to know a real person with real evidence that a 9W tube amp can drive a 89db, 4 Ohm speaker to ear-bleeding level. It is really reassuring, more than you know!
If it is deafening at 12 O'clock and you generally listen at 10 O'clock, I would think it to be very unlikely that it would run out of steam very quickly in larger rooms.
The very good control over the bass is due to the carefully wound home-made output-stage transformers, the main business of the Leben-owner, I suppose.
What do you mean by "the first few times"? Has it stopped sounding "magical" afterwards? I guess not, I must have misunderstood something. Another point above: so, you have done some tube-rolling it appears. The Sovtek ones are the stock ones and what have you replaced them with?
Good to know a comparison, and that too with a very good amp. Surprised to know about the bass improvement over the Sugden. May be I have too much of a set idea about tube amps, based primarily and wrongly on reports on less refined products.
Can you comment a bit more on the soundstaging and imaging? Somehow these are important for me. I like to get a concert hall feeling, if possible, although I would give more importance to tonality and transparency of the sound. I am trying to get a general idea about tube amps. In my Cadence VA-1 audition, the soundstage was nothing particular to write home about, the speakers were (and wonderful speakers they were) very much visible. The Cayin A-88T did quite well on that front with average speakers, as reported earlier. Now the Leben is in a different class, and I would like to know. I did not quite get your expession "laid back" with respect to soundstaging and was also a bit surprised to find dependence of soundstaging on IC's.
Yes, I have also read a lot about even the CS300 and CS300X driving a lot of lowish sensitivity speakers like the Harbeth, Quad ESLs, Harpia Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Devore Gibbon 3S, a few Totems, Roksan FR5, Dyne Contour 1.1 (all in the range 84 to 87 db).
That's quite a mix! I do not have much idea about rock, but my general idea (rock-lovers, excuse me for my ignorance) is that it involves, among other things, a bit of forcefulness and bass-slam. Do you mean to say that all that is captured and amplified pretty faithfully by the little Leben? Do you listen to music with speed, how is that done?
no the impact of music wears off and you get used to it ..Thats all
I replaced the Sovteks with Svetlana 6L6GC (Winged C) the sovteks are naturally bright and edgy with my speakers which are very revealing. with a warmer more forgiving speaker pair i feel they will do well.Well the Sugden although solidstate falls into the definition of a tube sound
it is a Single ended Pure Class A amp. while the Leben is a Push Pull Tube amp which sounds more "Solid State" than Tube. so much for classical tubey and SS definitionswith the leben (especially with Solitone ICs) the soundstage falls back and goes wider. On the right it goes beyond the speakers after 11 pm when the power is cleaner but due to placement issues it does not extend beyond the speaker on the right...BTW i have it placed in a corner configuration (my avatar image may give you an idea)with the speaker firing down the diagonal. with the transparent cable the sound was much forward into the plane of the speakers. this was pretty amazing when i heard it for the first time and HAD to get the solitone...i was a cable agnostic..think i still am save for this experience as usually there are minute differences and good or bad is purely subjective and system dependent which makes it rather random ( maybe with your quantum physics expertise can figure out the Asit equivalent of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle...my physics is extremely rusty so do pardon any mistake on this !)
from what i have understood from some discussions, the CS300 apparently does a better job than the cs600 although at a lower power...
well rock usually conjures images of heavy metal and marijuana...i am more of the classic rocker and not the heavy/death metals etc etc :lol:..but yeah have really broadened my horizons on music the past few years especially after listening to so many well done setups.
I like the bass Slam but dont like overpowering bass..gives me a headache...in fact can still tolerate some brightness. I like powerful sound but not if it gets Hard..the music should flow. and the leben does all that very very well :yahoo:
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So, if I understand you correctly, the clipping in tube amps cannot harm speakers, because the flat portion corresponds to DC and it does not get through a transformer, because you need a changing magnetic field to induce current in the secondary. Neat! However, clipping can obviously harm the tube amp itself.
Oh yes! It's the most important thing. For me that's actually a problem. When the music starts and I like it, the world stops for me.
I wonder how is that possible, because the CS300 gives only 12 wpc continuous as opposed to the CS600's 32 wpc. The huge difference in the continuously deliverable power should also reflect in the dynamic headroom! But I have also heard that the CS300 is the most dynamic of the Leben integrateds, difficult though it is to understand. Have you heard similar things about the CS300X or CS300XS (15 wpc) also? If it's not too much trouble, can you give me some pointers on the net of these sort of discussions?
i had a couple of links last year on this..cannot find it now but will try to find it as it must be on my desktop. the 300 was supposedly better than the 300X/XS in smoothness and musicality .
they stopped the 300X as the Mullard they used was running out of stock. i believe the 300XS is along the same lines.
Sridhar may be abetter person to give you more info on this though.. but are you sure this will drive your speakers ? the reason is that the amp is a substantial investment and in the future if you ever plan to change your speakers, that 12W might limit your choices...it might not as well but just a thought
one link is http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showthread.php?p=250704
they stopped the 300X as the Mullard they used was running out of stock. i believe the 300XS is along the same lines.
Sridhar may be abetter person to give you more info on this though.. but are you sure this will drive your speakers ? the reason is that the amp is a substantial investment and in the future if you ever plan to change your speakers, that 12W might limit your choices...it might not as well but just a thought
one link is http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showthread.php?p=250704
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Hi Guys,
This thread gets better every time.
Arj, ironic that 'good' SS amps are tweaked to sound tubey and higher end tube amps are designed to incorporate some of the SS virtues!!!!This hobby will surely drive me mad, dont know about u guys.
Asit i didnt think the loudness button on the HK is a phase invert. I thought it was more to compensate for the response of the human ear at low volumes. If i am not wrong this is the Fletcher-Munson hearing curve. Both the HIGH & LOWS are boosted when u press this button. Even if this is engaged it does not work at higher volume levels. As i mentioned i had an HK integrated and this is what i understood.
Yesterday i heard the Accuphase E550 class A amp. Superb with the correct speakers. We heard them with the Thiels/totems and this 30 W @ 8 Ohms drove both speakers beautifully. It doubles into the 4 ohm thiel load if i am not wrong. Heard the sim combo too. SuperNova cdp + Pre/power with the thiels and its very different. Cant run down a product but this combo is surely not for me.
Another interesting thing that i experienced. Both my components have XLRs so i thought the best option would be to use them. When i got the Marantz itself i made an XLR cable with a VDH D 102. Last night i connected another D102 but single ended and did an A/B. I could tell almost no difference between balanced/ single ended. No more detail or any more silent background (its anyway non existent in the Accu). Now these are for short 1 meter runs and things may change if long lengths are used.
Rgds
This thread gets better every time.
Arj, ironic that 'good' SS amps are tweaked to sound tubey and higher end tube amps are designed to incorporate some of the SS virtues!!!!This hobby will surely drive me mad, dont know about u guys.
Asit i didnt think the loudness button on the HK is a phase invert. I thought it was more to compensate for the response of the human ear at low volumes. If i am not wrong this is the Fletcher-Munson hearing curve. Both the HIGH & LOWS are boosted when u press this button. Even if this is engaged it does not work at higher volume levels. As i mentioned i had an HK integrated and this is what i understood.
Yesterday i heard the Accuphase E550 class A amp. Superb with the correct speakers. We heard them with the Thiels/totems and this 30 W @ 8 Ohms drove both speakers beautifully. It doubles into the 4 ohm thiel load if i am not wrong. Heard the sim combo too. SuperNova cdp + Pre/power with the thiels and its very different. Cant run down a product but this combo is surely not for me.
Another interesting thing that i experienced. Both my components have XLRs so i thought the best option would be to use them. When i got the Marantz itself i made an XLR cable with a VDH D 102. Last night i connected another D102 but single ended and did an A/B. I could tell almost no difference between balanced/ single ended. No more detail or any more silent background (its anyway non existent in the Accu). Now these are for short 1 meter runs and things may change if long lengths are used.
Rgds
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