Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

[square_wave]

No Asit. This is not the NJ1. This is basically the PM1 which comes in some three versions now depending on how much you are willing to spend on the quality of the parts.
One is the standard 78k model which I use. You have one below that (35k) and another one above the 78k model. That is a cost-no object model for people who want ultra-hiend.

Sorry there was a mistake in my earlier post.
Pricing is 52k for the smaller brother of the PM-1.

Corrson has changed the following to slightly cost effective but high quality alternatives in the cost effective version.
The DACT attenuator.
Jenson Caps.
One more part I dont remember exactly.
Otherwise the design remains the same.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Asit,
U are correct on the mixed reviews on the 15S1 but fabulous for the 11S1. Frankly these things dont really matter as there are too many variables to enlist. I just mentioned this as my friend printed out a few and sent me the envelope last evening. I have heard the 15 S1 and it is good. Different from the Arcam in the fact that the arcam has more attack. Arcam can sound thin in certain combos but the marantz will almost always sound smooth in most combos. Its smaller than the 11S2 in output and size and uses different HDAM. It wont double into a 4 ohm load and does not have balanced outs( i use the balanced as i now have the option with my cdp) There are naturally a few more changes which u can read on the net. All in all at the price that it was available (90/95K) its a good amp. I dont know the official pricing now but should be around 1.6L.
Yes they liked the Shindo and its no surprize. The EP really seems an interesting product at a great price. I am reading a few reviews that Jim has given me and its an interesting read for sure .
Rgds

 

[Asit]

Hi everybody,

In the past few days, square_wave and sridhar seemed to have suggested a view that says that the pre-amp sort of determines the sound signature and the power amp better be as neutral as possible. For a layman like me, my level of understanding and also experience is way below most of you. I thought the job of the pre-amp is to let one select the source and the volume control and at the same time provide a tiny bit of gain on the signal (for active ones only). In doing so, it may introduce some noise of its own that can make the sound a bit muddy. Is there a connection between my simple-minded thinking and what sq_wave and sridhar may be saying? Would somebody like to comment on it? Why is a good pre, generally, so much expensive and at times more than the power amps?

At the beginning (page 2) of this long long thread, our forum member marsilians suggested that at the moment I should go only with a good power amp and use my Nad c325bee as pre to keep the Nad sound signature. I did not quite understand what he meant at that time, and I did not agree with him because I thought that the lack of transperancy of the Nad sound was primarily because of the dirty pre section of the Nad integrated. I still subscribe to the same view. However, what he said has a similarity to what sq_wave and sridhar has recently opined. That's why I am bringing this up here.

I would really appreciate a discussion on this. As I have said a few times before, it's not just about me buying a new amp, I wanted to learn a thing or two about amps and may be there are others who have a similar mindset as mine.

I have tried contacting Siva (called him and also sent an e-mail), but so far there is no response from him. I guess either he may not be ready to ship to other cities or his new pre is not quite ready for marketing and/or giving out specs. In any case the new pre at 52K (donno if it includes taxes, definitely not shipping) combined with a power amp like the Stratos may push the budget way above what I can afford. But still I would like to know about his products if he ever replies.

ROC, I do not want to impose anything, but if you have some time one of these weekends or whenever, please audition and compare the combinations of Etesian and Lyrita Lync as pre and Stratos and Operetta as power. Since the Etesian is quite clean, according to reports so far and the Lyrita as a valve amp is supposed to add color (not that I dislike color, I quite agree with Sridhar that we all, consciously or unconsciously like some color), the comparisons would be interesting. Also, do not worry about what I would like or dislike.

Cranky, I answered all your questions in my post above, but forgot to answer your question on the Cadence re-audition. Well I have not managed that yet because as long as the Board exams are on, I will have a stressed mind, although I do not want to admit it; certainly do not want to show it at home.

Thank you all for helping me out.

 

[Asit]

Fundamentally, any real device with gain adds distortion. The sound signature of a gain device is primarily driven by the spectrum of that distortion.

Passive devices (eg passive pres) also have some distortion, but in general this is very low compared to active devices. Due to impedance matching issues a passive pre may be more susceptible to interference, but they should be more neutral compared to active devices. depending on what you have in the rest of your chain, that may be a good thing or not.

Thanks Cranky, for explaining very briefly and but precisely the situation in cases of both the active and the passive pre. I would not have understood your reply before the start of this thread, but now after all these discussions and a bit of reading on my part, I do, to a large extent (apart from the part on the interference in case of the passive).

As for the NAD, I would advise you to dump it. ... Almost all entry-level integrateds on the market have a terribly compromised preamp section, with very basic functionality and poor component selection.

Oh, be assured of that. It's already on the sidelines. One forum member already wants to buy it, but I have no idea what price should be right for me and the buyer. The price has to make sense both to me and the buyer. Both the prospective buyer and I are too polite at the moment to suggest a price thinking not to offend the other person (classic Lucknow-wala case of "pehle aap"). I brought it up because of the issue of the sound signature imparted by the pre.

I would look at the most reasonable choice within your budgets - the Operetta and Stratos, with the Lyrita, Etesian or the TVC we were talking about earlier.

It seems to me that's predominantly the way I am heading. This is also sort of obvious from my last posts. I have to pick a sensible combination out of the above 3x2=6 choices. ROC in his posts has already volunteered to do the needful work with respect to 4 of the choices. Sridhar will be there to help me. Then I have to work out the pricing, all calculations are showing that I am going to end up spending more than even my twice-increased budget and I am not sure how is that possible in reality, even if I ignore the home front. In that case, I may have to downgrade from Stratos to a Khartago (little brother of Stratos), but I would really like to have the Stratos between those two.

The TVC choice may be out, because the guy offered me some hefty discounts then, but I was not sure at that time, and I cannot usually buy anything in a hurry.

 

[square_wave]

Hi Asit,
I think I need to make my suggestion clear.
All equipment add color. It depends on what color you like. It is futile to suggest that gear that measure well does not cause distortion/ add color. They do. Maybe we do not know how to measure that. That is the reason why some gear that measure well sound clinical and cold. Please note that live music do not sound cold and clinical.
Well designed tube preamps sound very neutral and the sound have great body and tone to it and are very engaging. Now depending on the tube which is employed, the tone / voicing changes a bit. It is like having that final voicing decision in your hands. This is what I meant by the sound signature. It does in no way imply that all tube preamps add great color.
Most SS manufacturers also do this final bit of voicing by ear by mix-matching components. Hence a Marantz amp sound differs from a Bryston and an Arcam sounds even different. Color is there all over the place. Somehow tubes seem to imply color and euphony. This is not true. These things are all design dependant.

You are right, all budget integrateds are very poor preamps built into them. Especially nads. Using the nad as a preamp will be a serious bottleneck.

 

[Asit]

Hi square_wave,

Okay, I think I understand your argument. But if I apply your argument to the Etesian pre and the Stratos power, both being close to neutral, would not this combination sound a bit clinical? But based on the auditions of Sridhar, ROC and you, all thee of you have come back with a reasonably positive report. If you folks like something with all your experience of hearing so many good gears, then I would tend to believe you. But here is where I am getting a bit puzzled. How is then this sound different from say a Lyrita pre and Stratos combo?

I am sorry, perhaps I am asking things that have no meaning. But in all probability, I am going to buy something without auditioning and hence I am troubling you folks more than what seems necessary and this may even be irritating to some of you.

 

[square_wave]

Neutral is not = clinical. Color is impossible to avoid, as SW points out very rightly. However the quantity and shades can be tailored to one's desires. I would suggest you start trying out equipment as far as possible, otherwise you will get lost in a sea of words when what you need to do is start listening to music.

I think you have your answer here.
A well designed passive preamp like the Etesian does not sound very clinical to me ((Neutral is not clinical). Some combos do sound clinical. But this is not one of them.
But a tube preamp like the Candela or the PM-1 adds a certain body, tone and atmosphere to the sound which to me is very engaging. I just added some to the sea of words I do not know how else to describe it.

 

[Asit]

Thanks Cranky and square_wave, for the clarifications. That was really helpful. Some of Cranky's writing was quite hilarious too. Okay, I will wait if ROC comes back with some feedback, especially if the little Lyrita can provide some of that 'body', 'tone' and 'atmosphere'.

BTW, square_wave, I saw your set-up in some other forum (can't remember). The PM-1 looks absolutely gorgeous. You seem to have a decent steel stand too. Where did you get that made?

 

[reignofchaos]

Thanks Cranky and square_wave, for the clarifications. That was really helpful. Some of Cranky's writing was quite hilarious too. Okay, I will wait if ROC comes back with some feedback, especially if the little Lyrita can provide some of that 'body', 'tone' and 'atmosphere'.

BTW, square_wave, I saw your set-up in some other forum (can't remember). The PM-1 looks absolutely gorgeous. You seem to have a decent steel stand too. Where did you get that made?

Sorry about the delayed response. I'm down with really bad fever since the last couple of days. Lets hope I'm fine by sunday or else, I would only be able to compare the preamps sometime next week. It'd be very interesting to compare the lyrita after the mods with the other preamps.

 

[Asit]

Take it easy, ROC and take care of your fever. There is no need to go anywhere before you get well. I cannot acknowledge enough all the help I am getting.

 

[gobble]

Sorry about the delayed response. I'm down with really bad fever since the last couple of days. Lets hope I'm fine by sunday or else, I would only be able to compare the preamps sometime next week. It'd be very interesting to compare the lyrita after the mods with the other preamps.

Hey

Get well soon. BTW, I was wondering if I could hang around anytime you Bangalore guys audition stuff.

Cheers

 

[square_wave]

Thanks Cranky and square_wave, for the clarifications. That was really helpful. Some of Cranky's writing was quite hilarious too. Okay, I will wait if ROC comes back with some feedback, especially if the little Lyrita can provide some of that 'body', 'tone' and 'atmosphere'.

BTW, square_wave, I saw your set-up in some other forum (can't remember). The PM-1 looks absolutely gorgeous. You seem to have a decent steel stand too. Where did you get that made?

The stand was made by a gentleman called Murthy. He makes some awesome cables, isolation platforms, speaker stands too.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Guys,

I wonder where Asit has reached in his amp search.

Anyway i have been busy doing the same for much longer. Frankly i dont think there is any amplifier that i have missed out on. Most of them i got on Home demos and some i just had to judge at the vendors as a home audition was getting very difficult and cumbersome. When i started out building this set up i thought about 3L for the entire set up should be apt. Basically i needed cdp+ amp+ speakers as i had tons of cables. In fact similar to Asit i too had a Harman integrated of the 90s for a long time and was quite fond of the unit and its sound. This was in my bedroom while there was a nice old Bryston/b&w in the hall.
First i bought my speakers (B&W 805s) after a crazy amount of exploring and then made an arrangement with a friend who is heavily into distribution/dealership to extensively home audition all electronics as and when convenient. Since i had in the past always lent cables/components to my friends they in turn also repayed the favour and i also got to try some amps that were not locally available in my home (accuphase/sim/Mc/cayin etc etc). Apart from these i also tried amps starting from the nad/rotels to the arcam/primare/roksan/MF/YBA design/Brystons/Marantz reference from various dealers/distributors. I ended up buying the Brystons(at way above the budget allocated for an amp but at a great price as it turned out as there were 2 price increases soon after which got me my cost when i had to sell the combo). I liked the sound, knew and experienced the warranty back up and felt that was that. At the same time i was also experimenting with cdps but i had made it clear that i wanted to finalize my amp first.

I started feeling that electronics at least affordable electronics could not really make music like they did in the 80s. They could play clean, be dynamic, relatively grain free but something was always missing. I too like Asit felt that the old Harman bought from a European Airport for small money was superb. The more i researched the more it perplexed. I have an immaculate Nakamichi which still sounds great (keeping the limitations of the medium in mind) and an old sony Sacd player beat most of the 'great buys' quite easily. Made a few mistakes too in the cdps and lost some money in the sales.

Finally have got the Accuphase E 350 integrated amplifier and it sounds wonderful. I dont want to get into any audiphile descriptions, maybe later but the ease at which this amp delivers great sound really amazes. A friend has warned me of the edgy top end so that was the first thing i wanted to ascertain. I got the 450 and the 350 and chose the 350 as that itself was more than an amp for my needs. The 450 is that bit more dynamic and controlled as its 180 wpc as against the 100 wpc 350.

Tons of my friends are not happy with their gear, most feel the quality of affordable components is lacking, too much hype about moderate gear floats in mags and on the net and too many half truths are accepted as gospel. This sector is really set to boom IMO and there are tons of guys starting to build/upgrade existing HIFI and most are taken in by what they read rather than what they ear. For myself i hope that this ends this upgrade bug as this is an amp one can definately live with long term and god willing i intend to.

Rgds

 

[reignofchaos]

Congrats on the Accuphase. There's a certain sweetness in the Accuphase sound that just can't be described in words. It just has to be experienced. I heard an old 60 watter at a friend's place and it drove his dynaudio contours (extremely difficult load) with unbridled ease. It was obvious that the dynamic capabilities of this amp were significantly better than what the power ratings indicated.

 

[square_wave]

Congratulations Dinyaar.:clapping:
The amp looks classy. Enjoy.
Accuphase Laboratory, Inc.?E-350
Totally agree with you that the quality of mass-market affordable gear is severely lacking. To get good quality there are three ways INMHO.
1. Spend ton loads of money on top of the line well known audiophile gear.
2. Buy well designed underground gear.
3. DIY.

 

[dinyaar]

Thanks ROC and SW.
SW sadly i had to choose option 1 from your suggested options.

I am already being attacked by my 'tube lovers' as this is just 'one more SS amp' . I have been fascinated by this brand for ages but could never get my hands on it at a 'fair' price. I even tried to get my wife to check out deals/prices in sgpore recently and she in fact heard this E350 before i did and really liked it (was driving the Focal Electra). Another fact that i have not really bothered to disclose is unlike tons of other guys my wife listens to the set up as much as me and sometimes even more so her opinion outweighs mine

 

[square_wave]

Thanks ROC and SW.
SW sadly i had to choose option 1 from your suggested options.

I am already being attacked by my 'tube lovers' as this is just 'one more SS amp' . I have been fascinated by this brand for ages but could never get my hands on it at a 'fair' price. I even tried to get my wife to check out deals/prices in sgpore recently and she in fact heard this E350 before i did and really liked it (was driving the Focal Electra). Another fact that i have not really bothered to disclose is unlike tons of other guys my wife listens to the set up as much as me and sometimes even more so her opinion outweighs mine

An audiophile "wife". You are truely blessed

Very few women care about good sound. I have at least a dozen women friends who love music. But they wouldnt care less if I listen to music on my computer speakers. There is one girl whom I know who went and bought dynaudio speakers and Nad amplifier/cd player. But how much ever I tried, she refused to upgrade her interconnects or speaker wire (she was using some wretched 100 rupee stuff) :sad:. I ended up gifting her some cables when I upgraded. But women listen to more music than us without bothering about the sound quality

 

[dinyaar]

Well Sw i agree that most women dont really care about 'good sound'. (God i will be shot someday soon by some women). I am sure my wife will never spend the amount i do or spend hours tweaking or reading about HIFI but she always has an opinion on the set ups. She hears tons of opera and i guess after 15 years of being married to me this love for HIFI and good sound had to rub off.

Actually i dont really want to sound 'square' but i truly have not come across any woman who goes to the length most of us do in this hobby. I guess the fact that there are barely a couple of women on the forum is testimony to that.

Square wave u are really going to get yourself and me labelled as MCPs.
Rgds

 

[venkatcr]

Something to do with their genes?

They will cry silly over some antics of an actor or actress, but if you get goose pimples over a song, they will look at you as if you have landed from Mars.

They have a great advantage over, at least, me. My wife can listen to a song, see TV, watch cricket, and cook - all at the same time. If you ask me to hear a song I love as background music with collateral noise, I will be ready to climb a tree and jump from it.

Cheers

 

[neo]

I agree with square wave.hyeah:
Dinyaar you are lucky a chap. An audiophile wife & now an accuphase.
I hope it's not the other way around
Cheers