Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

Hi Gobble,
Thanks for the suggestions on the windows. But the windows have metal (Aluminium I guess) frames, so no way to nail any ply boards on them.

Sq-wave, Sridhar
Thanks for pointing out some insights into imaging. Right now, I do not have a lot of freedom of moving my speakers. However, last night I tried moving outwards from their positions as much as possible and also tried a bit of toeing-in and it improved the imaging with the 2 CDs I listened to last night. I have plans for better speaker placement in future, cannot do it immediately.

At the moment, I have about 30 hours on the amp, I would think. Slow progress, sorry, but just did not find more time. But the amp is already showing signs of magical qualities. Last couple of sessions was truely truely magical. It is doing wonders with vocals, both male and female. The detail is incredible, and without any harshness.

I forgot to mention before that while warming up (that is no load) the amp can get very hot. I usually warm up for half an hour to one hour. When music is being played from a source, it becomes better, the hotness reduces a bit, but still quite hot. I guess that is normal with class A push-pull.


The cables will need more burn in than 30 hours for sure, especially the Audio Arts. With the amp, I dont think you will see much improvement in terms of imaging though due to this burn-in, main improvement will be in overall smoothness/refinement/tone, etc You can probably make out that after 45 mins to an hour of playing time, the sound gets relatively better. In general with Class A, since the gain devices are conducting all the time (whether there is an input signal or not) the power dissipation will be there, whether power is dissipated is heat completely or partially to the speakers as acoustic power will change depending on the input signal...

cheers
 
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Hi folks,

It's been a while since I have posted in my dear amp thread. Today at the outset, I like to tell you about a concert that took place at home in our living room.

Jasraj-ji was performing raga Ahir Bhairav. To his right and slightly back was his student Shweta Javeri accompanying him on the tanpura and providing the main vocal support, to his left and slightly back was his daughter Durga accpmpanying on the other tanpura and also giving occasional vocal support. To the extreme right of Jasraj-ji and on the front row was Sabir Khan (son of tabla-legend Ustad Keramatullah Khan) on the tabla, and on the extreme left of Jasraj-ji was the sarnegi accompanist Sultan Khan.

The performance was sublime. The vocal supports were very measured, at times both Shweta and Durga together were singling the 'mukhra' (the first line) and with my eyes closed could tell the difference between the two voices and the positions the voices were coming from.

Actually, as you may have guessed, this was not a live performance at our home. This was the same CD (by 'Chhanda-dhara') that was used in my three audition (Quad 909, Cadence VA1 and the Cayin A-88T amps) being played through my electronics and speakers at home.

First thing first. I was complaining about imaging in my last posts. With good recordings, the imaging is now perfect (without having to do much tweaking of speaker position).

I have now about 75 hours on the Audio Art IC-3 and about 20 hours on the VDH D102MKIII (gift from Dinyaar). Sridhar told me that the Audio Art Cable needs at least 100 hours to break in, and that's why I have put more hours on it first.

Dinyaar, or anybody else (I know Suhas uses VDH D102 MKIII), can you tell me how long does the VDH cable need for a proper break-in?

Actually the breaking in of the Audio Art cable is a bit strange. Out of the box, it was quite punchier than the VDH, but not refined and was not balanced. The VDH on the other hand was very soothing, but seemed to lack a bit of details. I am using the AA cable more for the CD-amp connection and the VDH mainly for cassette-amp connection.

Around the 50 hour mark, the breaking in of the AA cable was at a very bad phase, I guess. The sound was strange, it was as if it wanted to break free but somehow could not. I waited on patiently and had something almost continuously for 8-10 hours at a time last weekend, and it seemed to have done the trick, although it is yet to break in completely, I think.

For the last couple of days, the sound is sublime.

Vinny (sq_wave), I see what you meant when you said this did not come in between the music and you. With good recordings, it is really that feeling, that the music is being performed and the equipments are not really there. But I have to say, when you heard the Leben, it was not broken in at all, and you have to listen to it now to hear the openness and clarity of the sound.

Dinyaar, I remember once we had a debate on the relative importance of the source and the amp. Cranky and I were of the opinion that source was perhaps more important (of course the amp has to be reasonable). You did not disagree, but I had the impression that you did not completely agree either. In your view, the amp has to very very good. I think I see your point now.

The Leben is not an ordinary amp, I am convinced about that. For just a little more money, it is actually way better than the three amps I auditioned. In fact with due respect to the other amps (especially the Cadence, because everyboy suspected the set-up was not right), I like to say that the Leben belongs completely to a different class. I am not sure of the diminishing returns, in this case at least.

As I have described in my posts describing the auditions, all those auditions were relatively long (lasting up to 3 hours) and I have diligently followed a procedure during the auditions with the same CDs, same tracks and even the same movements of music to concentrate on and understand differences, strengths, weaknesses etc.. It was very difficult for me, because I do not listen to music like that (that is, breaking it up into pieces). But I suppose that was necessary to understand the amps better, as long as we also remember the totality of the musical presentation.

Now I can hear the exact same pieces with my new amp and set-up, and I see the difference. Let me simply say, it's huge, both ways (that is, listening only analytically and only emotionally).

Next, after the VDH cable is sufficiently burnt in, I like to make cable comparisons when used with different sources. The VDH users, please tell me how long does the VDH need for a reasonable burn-in.
 
Hi Asit

Great to hear you are thoroughly enjoying your system. More than an individual piece of equipment I think it is the system synergy which is the most important.
If at any time you wish to change your speakers, try the Harbeths with the Leben. They really sing together.
 
Hi Asit,
Really happy to know that the amplifier is all u expected it to be.

The VDH cable had almost no hours on it as this way a single 1.2 m left. Once the connectors were attached it was used for maybe an hour or so. In short treat this as a new cable. The VDH is a smooth cable with good bass and clean trebles. Some find the trebles to be a bit restrained. If u get a chance try to audition 2 VDH cables -THE FIRST ULTIMATE & THE ORCHID.
Would love to hear anyones opinions on these two as to me they are both fantastic.

A little while ago we had a lively discussion on cables. Also present was a person who is a rep of a large US Co that only makes cables. (I WONT name him or the Co) I do not give too much importance to cable burn in ( my bbay friends who are invisible on the forum will once again frown on this comment) and i was absolutely in the minority. Tons of cables were auditioned, some out of the box and some new and they all sounded identical to me on a well warmed set up. Finally when just the two of us were outside having a smoke he candidly told me his personal opinion and that was very different from all the mumbo jumbo that i glanced at in the 30 page catalogue that he was dishing out!!!!!!!! Asit we all have our opinions and i am not much of a believer but if u are then about 50 hours on the cable should be adequate.

Regarding the amp speaker synergy. Well to me this is very important. In most of my set ups i spend on speakers and amps and the cdp is relatively cheaper (but a decent cdp IMO)

Rgds
 
Agree with Dinyaar here.
Cable burn can bring in very minor differences. The basic characteristics will more or less remain the same.
I have noticed more differences in Amplifier and speaker burn in. Sources too in my opinion do not change much as they burn in.
Good to see that you are enjoying your system :)
 
In my experience if the wire is copper, break in does not bring great improvements. However if the wire is silver, break in definitely brings in a huge improvement. With silver everything sounds closed in initially. At about 100 hrs things open up. Some sources do take a lot of time to open up. For example the Esoteric is horrible to listen to for the first 400-500 hrs. Its only after that it starts to sound good. The amount of time a piece of equipment takes to break in depends on the caps used. For example, if a V teflon cap is used, it takes a long time.
 
In my experience if the wire is copper, break in does not bring great improvements. However if the wire is silver, break in definitely brings in a huge improvement. With silver everything sounds closed in initially. At about 100 hrs things open up. Some sources do take a lot of time to open up. For example the Esoteric is horrible to listen to for the first 400-500 hrs. Its only after that it starts to sound good. The amount of time a piece of equipment takes to break in depends on the caps used. For example, if a V teflon cap is used, it takes a long time.

I use a flat silver ribbon custom IC and I do "feel" improvement over time. Earlier it was sounding metallic, not it has gone. Not sure if it is my mind getting used to it or what ...

Regards
 
Hi Gobble

Silver improves over time. Your mind is not playing tricks. Break in time is dependent on the material used. Many times wires take a long time to break in because of Teflon used as dielectric.
 
HI,

I have 2 boxed VDH Interlinks. One is an all carbon.
On the box it says 'great sound forever'. Claims that the carbon will never age and sound EXACTLY as it did the first time u hear it. The second cable is the ORCHID which claims ULTIMATE CARE IS TAKEN TO ENSURE THAT THE CABLE WILL SOUND THE SAME AND NEVER DEGRADE IN SQ. It also cockily says that i should make a note of the time i first hear this cable and for the first time i will hear truly pure, un compressed, totally non metallic sound.

This burn in theory of cables is one of those topics in audio(and there are many) that we can all argue about till the cows get home and still have no difinitive answer. I do believe in break in of electronics, speakers and cars(sorry mod for bringing up the car again!)
Rgds
 
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Hi Dinyaar

When carbon is added to the mix, the glare reduces drastically. Hence it sounds very non metallic from the word go. I do not think this should be confused with break in. I do not know how carbon behaves with break in but the Orchid interconnect has a silver coating on a copper wire. Hence according to me it will need 30-40 hrs play in time to start sounding its best. If it were full silver it would have taken much longer. Silver needs a signal to pass through it for some time to start sounding good.
 
Hi Dinyaar

When carbon is added to the mix, the glare reduces drastically. Hence it sounds very non metallic from the word go. I do not think this should be confused with break in. I do not know how carbon behaves with break in but the Orchid interconnect has a silver coating on a copper wire. Hence according to me it will need 30-40 hrs play in time to start sounding its best. If it were full silver it would have taken much longer. Silver needs a signal to pass through it for some time to start sounding good.

Hi Prem,
Supposedly its all carbon. NO METAL. Even the shield and hence they had a hum issue with the earlier versions. See this cable has been with me for a while and it sounds the same to me.
This orchid is a new addition. Its the new TUNNEL tech that they plan to introduce slowly in many of their popular ICs. Yes its a silver coated copper. This cable is more dynamic than anything i have heard. Very un VDH sound IMO. Maybe 15 years ago a guy (well versed in audio) told me the best way to burn in my speaker wires was to put a hot soldering iron on both ends. Like an idiot i tried it and found no difference in the sound!!!!!!!! just melted away some of the dielectric.
Rgds
 
Hi Dinyaar

I was referring to the Orchid. Because of the silver in it it will definitely benefit with a little run in. Way back i had the Van Den Hul The First interconnect but i cannot remember how it behaved over time.
I think you use Kimber copper speaker cables. These do not need run in.

Right now as i am typing my new speaker cables from Rethm are breaking in. Earlier his cables were all copper but now Jacob from Rethm uses copper for the signal and silver for the return. I have 30 hrs on them and i definitely find them more open sounding now.
 
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Hi folks,

Both ICs and speaker cables need break-in or burn-in time. I have experienced it myself, especially the silver-coated ones. However, I must say that I have never seen a break-in of a cable as eventful as the Audio Art IC-3. It has gone through appreciable (and hence easily noticeable) changes in sound, to the extent I have never seen before in any other cable. Actually all reviews of this cable talk about this huge break-in of this cable and everybody recommends about 100h time. So I am nearly there.

Sq-wave,
I like to tell you that source equipments do also break-in (or burn-in, not sure what is the correct word to use). My recently bought CDP (CA 740c) has gone through it, and it also has a very long break-in time, about 150 to 200 hours. If you read audioreview.com users' reviews you shall find that many people are even complaining about it.

Usually, what happens during the break-in period is that the frequency extremes keep on changing. For example, with my CA 740c CDP, to start with the highs were a bit too much and the bass was not tight as ideal, but with time these things improved significantly and the midrange details also became better. However, I have never seen anything like the Audio Art Cable break in. Anybody, absolutely anybody (including my wife) will notice it.

Prem,
Thanks for your suggestion on the Harbeths, I know they go very well with Leben. Well I am not contemplating any speaker upgrade at the moment.

Dinyaar,
Your VDH cable is actually also breaking-in in my system, believe it or not. There is more details now, and the treble has improved. However, this one has gone through milder changes compared to the other cable.
 
Hi Asit

I saw the picture of your system. Is there any way in which you can pull out the speakers or relocate it. The amount of improvement you will get will be staggering. The problem right now is the bass that your speaker generates will resonate your showcase and this resonance is passed on to the speaker since it rests on a showcase shelf. In case you cannot pull out the speakers decouple them from the shelf. For decoupling you need to rest the speakers on 4 stainless steel balls. Each of these balls need to be in a cup.
 
Hi Asit

I saw the picture of your system. Is there any way in which you can pull out the speakers or relocate it. The amount of improvement you will get will be staggering. The problem right now is the bass that your speaker generates will resonate your showcase and this resonance is passed on to the speaker since it rests on a showcase shelf. In case you cannot pull out the speakers decouple them from the shelf. For decoupling you need to rest the speakers on 4 stainless steel balls. Each of these balls need to be in a cup.

Hi Prem,

Thanks a lot for your suggestion on my speaker positioning. I shall consider them seriously. I also have some plans on my own. My cabinet is quite big, about 11 feet wide, about 5 feet tall on an average, and just short of 2 feet deep. Any cabinet vibration is heavily damped because of the huge mass. To move it a few cms, you need a few people. I need to dismantle it to move it, even then each piece is very very heavy and they are quite rigidly put together. Actually my worry is not cabinet vibrations, it is that right now there is no space around the speakers, and I think any speakers, good or bad, need a bit of space, however small, to perform to their fullest potential. Your comment on the bass is well noted. It could be that I don't feel that much of a problem, probably because I mostly listen to a lot of Indian classical music.

However, I have owned these speakers close to 20 years now and I know their sound pretty well. They are pretty amazing, to say the least and it is really unfortunate that the Indian audiophile community does not have any idea about the quality of the older relatively higher end products from Canton (I have not heard the newer Cantons and they always cost a fortune outside Germany). I know the sound will improve if I place them better, but I am not sure if the improvement will be by a "staggering" amount, as you said above. In these years, I have put them in all possible positions, on stools, cabinets, bad stands, good stands, close to walls, away from all walls, even straight on the floor. All these changes happened quite naturally, I did not do anything in the sense of tweaking. They just happened as I moved from one continent to another, one house to the next etc.. Actually the way I have them now also happened by accident. I actually pull them out just a bit usually when listening. However, the sound has not changed really that much with all these changes of positions. It is very much possible that my senses are not refined enough. I have said openly a few times in this forum that I am not an audiophile, I know only a bit about music. Once the music starts, I invariably end up noticing not much else.
 
Hi Asit

Way back i had the PSB Mini Strata speakers. I had them in a cabinet, much like yours. When i placed them on their own stand, i was stunned by the improvement. Hence the suggestion based on my personal experience.
 
Hi Asit

In case you cannot pull out the speakers decouple them from the shelf. For decoupling you need to rest the speakers on 4 stainless steel balls. Each of these balls need to be in a cup.

Prem, Interesting that you bought this topic up. Decoupling speakers using cups and balls. I was reading up on this recently and even went through a hot discussion on this on AA. This technique is usually used under cd players and such and I was intrigued.
I saw this done very successfully by some Verity audio speaker users. In fact this is a highly recommended solution by the Verity user community.
Heres a Parsifal setup decoupled by symposium roller blocks.
Parsifals with Full Symposium Treatment
 
Hi Prem,

Thanks for your concern and suggestion again. I understand perfectly well the reasons for your suggestion, and I am also sure if somehow I can get the speakers out of that cabinet and be able to place them better, I would get better sound.

My point was whether this improvement will be significant or not, given the behavior of the these speakers over the last 20 years.

But at the same time, it is also true that I did not have an amp of the class of the Leben before. My vintage HK amp is very good, very transparent, detailed and dynamic, but on several counts (tonality, bass, separation, soundstage etc) it was undoubtedly and noticeably inferior to the Leben. Hence I may now be missing the extra juice that my new amp is extracting out of the source, because of the poor speaker positions.

And this is the reason, I am actually now weighing my options. Thanks to sq_wave's picture, I now have a visual picture of your cup and steel ball suggestion. I am not sure, in a household looked after by maids (my wife also works), how feasible is that solution. My speakers weigh around 17 kg each, so quite heavy.

I am more worried about the requirement of a little bit of space around my speakers which they lack at the moment. I was planning to have low wooden boxes built (to be filled by sand) as heavy stands for my speakers. What do you think of that?
 
Hi Cranky.

Thanks for your response. Well I looked into the Harbeth site, but did not find any stands there. However, many people are recommending Skylan stands for the Harbeths. My speakers' dimensions and weight are pretty similar to the Harbeth Super HL5 and you will find pictures of them sitting on a pair of Skylan stands in the 6Moons review of the Leben CS600. I actually find them quite good looking.

Is metal essential for stands? Some people in the Harbeth users' forum have made stands made looking like the Skylan stands but of solid wood. The reason I am asking is that I am completely useless in these engineering matters, my expertise goes as far as nails and hammer. But I have a carpenter who can make stuff according to specifications. I have to then think of some solution for the spikes for the contact with the floor.

What happened to your proposed visit to my place. I am out of town just for tomorrow, otherwise I am waiting for your visit for close to 2 months now.
 
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