wow jls, thats a nice upgrade !! Somewhere around 50 hours you will have a clear idea about the final sound. I am hoping you will be surprised what a high quality cartridge brings to the table, at least that has been my highest learning in analogue playback so far. BTW, I prefer 47 kohm loading with all the cartridges I have tried, that includes very low output MCs also. If your phonostage has it, please give it a try you may be surprised. I may want to give Ortofon a try very soon.
Comparing Shure M97xE and V15 Type III
- Thread starter jls001
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I'm already a believer in less than two hours of play. I must say it was a leap of faith. I had never heard even a mid level Ortofon before and went purely with the glowing reviews, formal and informal. I never doubted what a good cartridge could do. The only thing that had been holding me back was the big mental block I had (why spend so much on a cartridge, can't I get a very good one for less money) but I guess I overcame that after I convinced myself that the only true VFM cartridge in the market is the 103. But I wanted something better than the venerable 103. The next real jump in performance seems to happen in the 1K to 2K range. That's when I widened my radar scope and many more choices suddenly showed up.
That's a very interesting observation about 47 KOhm loading. I will gradually increasing loading value to hear which is the best. My phono stage does have 50K, and even 100K.
I find the Kontrapunkt quite neutral, just the way I like it. You should try an Ortofon. Or maybe the Lyra Helikon if you can find one.
Regarding loading, I normally do the opposite, I start at 47k and keep coming down, till I find a loading that does something special, then I go back to 47k for a reality check. Try it.
I tried a Lyra Delos which is supposedly a warmer Lyra, too hifi-sh to my ears. The ZYX is a lot more natural sonically.
I tried a Lyra Delos which is supposedly a warmer Lyra, too hifi-sh to my ears. The ZYX is a lot more natural sonically.
Last night I was reading an old Stereophile issue where Mr Michael Fremer reviewed a cartridge (Miyajima Kansai, iirc). He mentioned that the loading on the phono must be 10x of the internal DC impedance of the cartridge. In my case, internal impedance is 5 Ohms. So ideal loading is 50 Ohms. I didn't know this formula before.
But I will try your method and see how things sound.
PS: for the Denon DL 160, though internal impedance is 160 ohms, the manufacturer recommended loading is "more than 47K". This is understandable since it was designed to to be used with an MM phono stage. I tried various values loading values for the DL 160 and like 2000 Ohms the most.
PPS: BTW, does your phono stage have SUT? or is it active amplification for the MC?
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Joshua,
The 10x is to give the cart enough headroom. It will vary with carts. eg My SPU is 6 ohm internal so ideal should be 60 ohm but it actually sounds best at 100 ohm in my system. A few people also use 100 ohm to load the SPU. The Denon 103 is 40 internal so ideal should be 400 ohm but quite a few people load it through a SUT at 150 ohm which is about 3x. Loading a cart lower will make it sound darker and more bass heavy and higher will lighten the sound/make it brighter airier.
Regards
EDIT: My references are SUTs not active MC headamps
The 10x is to give the cart enough headroom. It will vary with carts. eg My SPU is 6 ohm internal so ideal should be 60 ohm but it actually sounds best at 100 ohm in my system. A few people also use 100 ohm to load the SPU. The Denon 103 is 40 internal so ideal should be 400 ohm but quite a few people load it through a SUT at 150 ohm which is about 3x. Loading a cart lower will make it sound darker and more bass heavy and higher will lighten the sound/make it brighter airier.
Regards
EDIT: My references are SUTs not active MC headamps
I learn one more important thing today. Thanks for this info about cartridge "tuning". I will keep it in mind and experiment.
BTW, which SUT do you use? Or are you referring to the SPU's inbuilt SPU?
sachu888
Well-Known Member
10 X is an approximate value.loading also defers upon Phonostage and cart to have appropriate gain.
Regards,
Sachin
Regards,
Sachin
Joshua,
I use the Cinemag CMQ 440 A which is built in hardwired into my phonostage with a resistor pot to select different loading settings. It does not feed into the MM input. I have to have one more call with Viren to fully understand the nitty gritty of how exactly it works.
It's not like the regular MC output - SUT - MM 47k input flow. My SPU is the newer version without the built in step up.Also often when manufacturers specify their recommended loading you never know whether it is for MC headamp or SUTs.
Regards
Joshua,
I use the Cinemag CMQ 440 A which is built in hardwired into my phonostage with a resistor pot to select different loading settings. It does not feed into the MM input. I have to have one more call with Viren to fully understand the nitty gritty of how exactly it works.
Also often when manufacturers specify their recommended loading you never know whether it is for MC headamp or SUTs.
Regards
I am told that Viren has started using Cinemags for his phono. That's great news. I believe Manav has also commissioned one for himself, including this fancy part, but with a switch to be able to handle inputs from multiple tonearms. I think that's very clever. I await his formal review (or rather follow up review).
BTW, does the resistors have to be changed manually? As in desoldering existing one and soldering desired new value?
Confession time:
I have been having this nagging feeling that there is something wrong in my audio chain.
First, I don't get enough resolution. Experienced people I spoke to told me that Cadence electrostat are fast and resolving, but mine clearly wasn't.
Second, the left speaker seems to be very reticent, with most mid and treble duties being done by the right channel.
Third, I don't get proper imaging. Singers seem to be displaced slightly to the right from the central listening position.
A visiting audio engineer friend had pointed out months ago that the channel balance seems stronger in the right. I listened it for myself and agreed with what he heard, but let things be as there is no balance control anywhere in my chain. But the nagging feeling has been persisting. In fact I have been speaking a number of friends on the forum about this problem, asking their opinions on what could be wrong. I had even contemplated buying a new power amp and new speakers. I was getting rather frustrated.
Dr Bhagwan Steps In:
So I finally took up on the resident audio doctor's long pending offer (as old as before last year's Mumbai Meet) to come visit my place for a system tune up.
Literally within a few seconds of playing the first track, he identified the issue - the electrostatic panel of the left speaker was screwed. There was some output but it was barely audible even when placing the ear next to it. A quick swap of the left and right electrostats confirmed that it was indeed the panel and not the crossover. This was a big relief for me as the prospect of hefting these 38 kilo speakers (each) is not too attractive at the best of times.
A call to Cadence Pune directed me to hand over the panels to their Churchgate office, obviating the need for a 165 km drive to Pune. I dismantled the panels and drove 25 kms to Churchgate and now the panels are already on their way to Pune. Very prompt people this Cadence folks.
I am really glad Bhagwan took the time out on a Saturday morning and drove more than 20 kms to my place. Without his keen ears, honed over many years of listening to numerous setups, my lead ears were totally lost as to what could have been the problem. That's the difference between an audio veteran and a noob.
I will have to live without audio for the next one week at least. I guess I will find out how the onboard speakers in my new laptop sound I will also catch up on a pile of trade and audio magazines waiting to be read.
@Bhagwan: Sir, once the panels come back, we need to spend at least half a day spinning some great classical records, especially Messrs Jean Sibelius and Pyotr Illyich Tchaikovsky. Perhaps one day you will come to love vinyl as much as some of us do When that day comes, just holler and I will lead you to the best sources of vinyl.
And thanks for correcting my speaker placement. I will start working on the corner trap and side panel you suggested.
I have been having this nagging feeling that there is something wrong in my audio chain.
First, I don't get enough resolution. Experienced people I spoke to told me that Cadence electrostat are fast and resolving, but mine clearly wasn't.
Second, the left speaker seems to be very reticent, with most mid and treble duties being done by the right channel.
Third, I don't get proper imaging. Singers seem to be displaced slightly to the right from the central listening position.
A visiting audio engineer friend had pointed out months ago that the channel balance seems stronger in the right. I listened it for myself and agreed with what he heard, but let things be as there is no balance control anywhere in my chain. But the nagging feeling has been persisting. In fact I have been speaking a number of friends on the forum about this problem, asking their opinions on what could be wrong. I had even contemplated buying a new power amp and new speakers. I was getting rather frustrated.
Dr Bhagwan Steps In:
So I finally took up on the resident audio doctor's long pending offer (as old as before last year's Mumbai Meet) to come visit my place for a system tune up.
Literally within a few seconds of playing the first track, he identified the issue - the electrostatic panel of the left speaker was screwed. There was some output but it was barely audible even when placing the ear next to it. A quick swap of the left and right electrostats confirmed that it was indeed the panel and not the crossover. This was a big relief for me as the prospect of hefting these 38 kilo speakers (each) is not too attractive at the best of times.
A call to Cadence Pune directed me to hand over the panels to their Churchgate office, obviating the need for a 165 km drive to Pune. I dismantled the panels and drove 25 kms to Churchgate and now the panels are already on their way to Pune. Very prompt people this Cadence folks.
I am really glad Bhagwan took the time out on a Saturday morning and drove more than 20 kms to my place. Without his keen ears, honed over many years of listening to numerous setups, my lead ears were totally lost as to what could have been the problem. That's the difference between an audio veteran and a noob.
I will have to live without audio for the next one week at least. I guess I will find out how the onboard speakers in my new laptop sound
I will also catch up on a pile of trade and audio magazines waiting to be read. @Bhagwan: Sir, once the panels come back, we need to spend at least half a day spinning some great classical records, especially Messrs Jean Sibelius and Pyotr Illyich Tchaikovsky. Perhaps one day you will come to love vinyl as much as some of us do
When that day comes, just holler and I will lead you to the best sources of vinyl.And thanks for correcting my speaker placement. I will start working on the corner trap and side panel you suggested.
Gerry_the_Merry
Well-Known Member
Now we will have to repeat all the ABs. Well, that is twice the fun...
He gave me a rough idea. I need to work out the nitty gritties, including sourcing sheep wool.I most certainly don't know where from at this time.
Hopefully it will be on a better sounding system this time. Also your visit is due post the Kontrapunkt. Has your Jico arrived yet? And the replacement RCA?
Hi Joshua,
Viren always used cinemags. Unless you order something else. The resistors will have to be desoldered and
resoldered if you want a diff value from the 5 or 6 existing ones. Though the six values should cover most carts with 10 to 200 ohm loading.
Regards
Gerry_the_Merry
Well-Known Member
Jico will arrive in a week. RCA sockets will arrive in a month. Two more rubber grommet sets are also here, but on the LP12 I dare not repeat the 4 hour surgery, so will continue with the existing grommets.
Hi Jls,
Viren made a dedicated MC phono pre for me with a built in SUT couple of years ago. you can see the pics at http://www.hifivision.com/phono-tur...ctical-guide-turntable-set-up.html#post131841 . It uses Lundahl LL9206 SUT. It gives me the flexibility to choose step up ratio and load by a selector switch and a knob.
Thanks.
Viren made a dedicated MC phono pre for me with a built in SUT couple of years ago. you can see the pics at http://www.hifivision.com/phono-tur...ctical-guide-turntable-set-up.html#post131841 . It uses Lundahl LL9206 SUT. It gives me the flexibility to choose step up ratio and load by a selector switch and a knob.
Thanks.
The electrostatic panels came back repaired from Cadence today. After a rather long day, I fixed them to the speakers.
When I started playing the first thing that I did was curse myself for all the details that I have been missing since the day I changed the electrostatic panels at Cadence almost 2 years ago, that too after having spent quite a bit of money. There was some minor problem in the left panel and that reduced the output to about, or less than, one-third of what it should ideally be outputting. I guess this was a "make good" by Cadence, since they didn't charge me a paise. Not even when I insisted!
No wonder I missed micro details that I very much know are there on a particular track. Now I know first hand that resolution so clearly is a function of a normal pair of functioning mid-tweeter combo.
Another change I hear is better defined mids. I also gained a re-appreciation of how fast electrostats mids and highs are.
And audio elements that ought to be centered are now properly centered
In short, Allan Taylor singing Heartbeat Hotel actually sounds like Heartbeat Hotel, with all the fancy percussions now panning properly from left to right, or front to back. Earlier, the percussive elements were barely audible and lost in the mix. I could hear them better on my modest car deck!
This sounds cliched, but fortunately it is true - I am hearing details I'd never heard before.
The speaker placement now needs work as the new placement is causing boomy bass.
All in all, a happy experience.
One full week of no audio was crazy. I hope to soon have the GR Research X-LS Encore DIY bookshelves (ship has berthed in Chennai and I got the cabinet from magma today:yahoo. I was sorely tempted to go out and buy a bookshelf to tide over such miseries.
When I started playing the first thing that I did was curse myself for all the details that I have been missing since the day I changed the electrostatic panels at Cadence almost 2 years ago, that too after having spent quite a bit of money. There was some minor problem in the left panel and that reduced the output to about, or less than, one-third of what it should ideally be outputting. I guess this was a "make good" by Cadence, since they didn't charge me a paise. Not even when I insisted!
No wonder I missed micro details that I very much know are there on a particular track. Now I know first hand that resolution so clearly is a function of a normal pair of functioning mid-tweeter combo.
Another change I hear is better defined mids. I also gained a re-appreciation of how fast electrostats mids and highs are.
And audio elements that ought to be centered are now properly centered
In short, Allan Taylor singing Heartbeat Hotel actually sounds like Heartbeat Hotel, with all the fancy percussions now panning properly from left to right, or front to back. Earlier, the percussive elements were barely audible and lost in the mix. I could hear them better on my modest car deck!
This sounds cliched, but fortunately it is true - I am hearing details I'd never heard before.
The speaker placement now needs work as the new placement is causing boomy bass.
All in all, a happy experience.
One full week of no audio was crazy. I hope to soon have the GR Research X-LS Encore DIY bookshelves (ship has berthed in Chennai
and I got the cabinet from magma today:yahoo. I was sorely tempted to go out and buy a bookshelf to tide over such miseries.
hyeah: A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
