Comparing Shure M97xE and V15 Type III

[mahiruha]

Mandatory glamour shots of the Denon DL103:

I had to drastically lower the tonearm height (from the height suited to the Kontrapunkt c) to get correct VTA for the 103. I probably need to lower it a half mm or so.

I'd like to revise my preliminary opinion of "sounds wonderful" of last night, to "sounds amazing", as it continues to amaze and dazzle me with its tricks. This cartridge is a midrange champion. What it omits (compared to much costlier cartridges) is probably that last bit of refinement and extension at the frequency extremes. It is hard not to like the mid range. Now I understand the hullabaloo surrounding this legendary cartridge is not for nothing.

Hi,
Congrats on successfully setting up the cart. you mentioned that you need to lower the tonearm quite a lot to get correct VTA. What was the correct VTA? Is it the music you heard or you tried to level the arm when its playing record or you tried to match the angle as suggested in the specs. I have been struggling a lot to set up my rega bias 2 cart due to its low depth that's why I am curious. Does the Denon comes with a stylus guard?
Thanks.

 

[jls001]

you mentioned that you need to lower the tonearm quite a lot to get correct VTA. What was the correct VTA? Is it the music you heard or you tried to level the arm when its playing record or you tried to match the angle as suggested in the specs. I have been struggling a lot to set up my rega bias 2 cart due to its low depth that's why I am curious. Does the Denon comes with a stylus guard?

VTA adjustment is a two-step process for me. First is the visual - try and make the arm tube as parallel as possible to the record surface. For most cartridges, this step itself is sufficient. Second part is to sit down and listen, and do fine tunings by ear. Not all cartridges are overly sensitive to pinpoint accuracy in VTA, and changing it slightly up and down may not have much positive effect.

When the VTA is right, the music also sounds just right, in the sense there is balance of the lows, mids and highs. When it is not properly balanced, you may find some part of the audio spectrum recessed.

My Denon DL103 doesn't come with stylus guard. So I had to be extra careful.

 

[mahiruha]

VTA adjustment is a two-step process for me. First is the visual - try and make the arm tube as parallel as possible to the record surface. For most cartridges, this step itself is sufficient. Second part is to sit down and listen, and do fine tunings by ear. Not all cartridges are overly sensitive to pinpoint accuracy in VTA, and changing it slightly up and down may not have much positive effect.

When the VTA is right, the music also sounds just right, in the sense there is balance of the lows, mids and highs. When it is not properly balanced, you may find some part of the audio spectrum recessed.

My Denon DL103 doesn't come with stylus guard. So I had to be extra careful.

Thanks Jls. That is what I do as well and makes sense. In a way when the proper VTA is dialled in the arm won't be parallel as we will be raising the rear side of the tone arm. In a way my finding is fitting a low depth cartridge is bit of a pain. I also agree with your finding that the low valued carts does quite well in producing the fluid midrange with adequate warmth but where it lacks is producing the extremes with authority.

Thanks.

 

[santhosh]

Guys, when you set VTA, how do you overcome the fact that thickness of different records vary. What is the average record thickness you keep in mind? For Eg: 180gms and 200 gms records are thicker than normal records.

One solution I could think of is to set it for 180 gms and use a thin record mat when listening to normal records.

Sorry, if this has been discussed elsewhere. Please point me to the link. TIA.

 

[jls001]

Thanks Jls. That is what I do as well and makes sense. In a way when the proper VTA is dialled in the arm won't be parallel as we will be raising the rear side of the tone arm. In a way my finding is fitting a low depth cartridge is bit of a pain. I also agree with your finding that the low valued carts does quite well in producing the fluid midrange with adequate warmth but where it lacks is producing the extremes with authority.

Thanks.

The proper method of adjusting the vertical tracking angle is by adjusting the stylus rake angle (SRA), as that is generally defined and accepted as 92 Degrees. SRA is a primary metrics. VTA is a derived metrics, directly proportional to the SRA. Since it is quite difficult to set the SRA due to the practical difficulty of

(a) seeing the tiny stylus, and
(b) adjusting its rake

unless one is equipped with specialised tools (like an USB microscope that can measure inclination angles), the indirect method of optimising the SRA is to align the arm tube parallel to the record surface, hoping that the SRA is at or very near the desired 92 Deg.

For fine tuning, go by what your ears like. A slightly rising counterweight end or cartridge end is forgivable as long as the ears like what they hear. In fact some experts suggest that the arm should droop ever so slightly at the cartridge end. I try to follow this advice.

For shallow cartridges you can try spacers (say 1 mm thick) between the headshell and the cartridge (like this costly one, or this)

 

[mahiruha]

Guys, when you set VTA, how do you overcome the fact that thickness of different records vary. What is the average record thickness you keep in mind? For Eg: 180gms and 200 gms records are thicker than normal records.

One solution I could think of is to set it for 180 gms and use a thin record mat when listening to normal records.

Sorry, if this has been discussed elsewhere. Please point me to the link. TIA.

well you should set VTA with a normal record that you have most in numbers. For other records the thickness woudn't matter that much but the proper way to do it will be with a VTA adjuster.If quick VTA adjustment is not available you can use mats. I would prefer playing around with VTF with a thicker record to fine tune the sound rather than mats.

Thanks.

 

[jls001]

One solution I could think of is to set it for 180 gms and use a thin record mat when listening to normal records.

Second option: live with the existing height optimised for one thickness

Third option: invest in a tonearm that allows on-the-fly adjustment like this.

Fourth option: invest in a on-the-fly adjuster like this if your arm supports it.

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

Guys, when you set VTA, how do you overcome the fact that thickness of different records vary. What is the average record thickness you keep in mind? For Eg: 180gms and 200 gms records are thicker than normal records.

One solution I could think of is to set it for 180 gms and use a thin record mat when listening to normal records.

Sorry, if this has been discussed elsewhere. Please point me to the link. TIA.

Santosh,don't get too obsessive about this,it will take away from the joy of listening to music.

As Mahiruha has mentioned set VTA with a record similar to the thickness of most of your records,and then sit back and enjoy the music.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[jls001]

Tweaked the arm height and lowered by an mm or so. The earlier setting sounded better. Will have to revert in due course. I truly hate having to keep doing this, with a naked stylus dangling precariously at one end, but it is in the service of better audio

Definitely in need of a Pete Riggle VTAF.

 

[mahiruha]

Hi Jls,
thanks for suggesting the spacer idea. Actually in my case with the transfi arm I am short by 6mm to get a perfectly positioned parallel arm with the rega bias 2 cart. That gap can be bridged by either lowering the mounting column or by raising the entire table by putting spacers below all 4 feet. The third option is to put a 6mm spacer above the cartridge to increase the depth. Out of three spacer idea seems to be the most elegant. Let's see how it goes. Do you have any idea how thick the spacers are normally?

Thanks.

 

[jls001]

Hi Jls,
thanks for suggesting the spacer idea. Actually in my case with the transfi arm I am short by 6mm to get a perfectly positioned parallel arm with the rega bias 2 cart. That gap can be bridged by either lowering the mounting column or by raising the entire table by putting spacers below all 4 feet. The third option is to put a 6mm spacer above the cartridge to increase the depth. Out of three spacer idea seems to be the most elegant. Let's see how it goes. Do you have any idea how thick the spacers are normally?

Thanks.

Out of lowering mounting column, AND raising whole 'table, which is the easier option for you? Does the air bearing horizontal arm have a means for raising or lowering, perhaps with some knob, or a finger nut?

6mm is way too much 'spacering'. Please try to avoid it. You will severely upset arm balance with all that extra mass.

 

[mahiruha]

Out of lowering mounting column, AND raising whole 'table, which is the easier option for you? Does the air bearing horizontal arm have a means for raising or lowering, perhaps with some knob, or a finger nut?

6mm is way too much 'spacering'. Please try to avoid it. You will severely upset arm balance with all that extra mass.

I see what you are saying. The problem with other two method is there will be less gap between the arm and the record surface.Since VPI platter has extra long spindle to accommodate the clamp so it becomes that much more difficult to slide the records in. If you talk about the weight the cartridges with more depth will always have that extra weight and the arm can handle them with ease. From your experience do you think heavier cartridges track better than lighter cartridges.

 

[jls001]

From your experience do you think heavier cartridges track better than lighter cartridges.

I have tried quite a number of cartridges - both light and heavy, in my system and my experience on their trackability has been uniformly quite good. May be I never used a cartridge with a nasty reputation for poor tracking.

 

[jls001]

More silver lining in the pipeline : another fellow forumer ran around the whole of Singapore to get me an Origin Live Encounter Mark III arm. This is a couple of classes above my current OL Silver Mark IIIa arm. Hopefully this should also reach me in the next few days.

I received the Origin Live Encounter Mark III yesterday and managed to set it up late last night. I had been giving it a good listening much of the day. It is a straight drop in on the arm board I made for the OL Silver Mk IIIa.

Similarities: arm tubes and (fixed) headshells are almost similar, both made of aircraft grade aluminium alloy; counterweights are similar/same.

Differences: the biggest change is in the yoke. The yoke of the Encounter is an elaborate affair, having much more lateral mass to give it horizontal stability compared to the Silver. I have seen some user tweaks for the Silver and those involved affixing lead weights to the pivot point to increase the lateral mass. I guess Origin Live has bypassed the need for such tweaks.

The second major difference is that the arm tube is designed to allow some amount of movement in the horizontal plane. The forward-rearward slack is there too but to a much lesser degree. In this aspect, it is not unfamiliar to vintage SMEs.

The third major difference is the antiskating. Encounter uses the traditional weight strung on a nylon string.

Setup was as easy/difficult as the Silver tonearm. The only hitch I faced when playing records was the tendency to skip in the inner grooves. Luckily I found that the arm lift was set too high and that was interfering with the arm tube and caused it to skip. Lowering it to more manageable height was all it took.

Sound: the presentation is more laidback compared to the Silver. I would say it is more balanced and neutral across the frequency spectrum. I'm still getting used to the new sound. The Silver was relatively more coloured (though that's not too bad a thing in my books).

Will try more fine tuning later.

 

[stevieboy]

Congrats Joshua,

Looks like you're now a fan of OL arms

Regards

 

[jls001]

Looks like you're now a fan of OL arms

The second arm literally fell into my arms I was not actively on the lookout for an arm. Was much more interested in getting myself one (or three!) decent to good cartridges, but this one suddenly presented itself tantalisingly, and was too good to ignore.

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

JLS, I am terrified that now you have too few TTs.

 

[jls001]

JLS, I am terrified that now you have too few TTs.

Arm boards for second arm aren't too hard to knock up, and I've got the space in the 'tables, and in my heart

 

[Saket]

I was recently told by a vendor that Shure M97XE is now discontinued?? There is some replacement for the model with a similar cart. but costs about 6800 INR...is it true?
Can somebody confirm? Sad news if turns out to be true.

Saket

 

[jls001]

I was recently told by a vendor that Shure M97XE is now discontinued?? There is some replacement for the model with a similar cart. but costs about 6800 INR...is it true?
Can somebody confirm? Sad news if turns out to be true.

Saket

I don't know if it's been discontinued but it is STILL very much available. Try Electronic Emporium, Mumbai 9820901941 (Jerry). I spoke to him two weeks back and they had it in stock (Rs 5500).