Did u know????

[bhaskarcan]

Re: First Indian Stereo soundtrack

In my experience CBS indian pressings from the 80s were atrocious at least as far as pop/rock albums are concerned - the sound is absolutely thin, flat almost devoid of bass. I almost never play my Bruce Springsteen LPs mainly because of this.

Yet, my copy of "Young Tarang" sounds great, so go figure. Different standards for Indian albums???

Since in last few posts we're mainly discussing about pressings of Indian music I was referring to CBS labelled Hindi music. And of course "Young Tarang" is one such example. Pick up any Hindi film record, be it Sadma or any RD number on CBS, you'll find stunning SQ.(can't say same for regional records). As also G401fan mentioned about the bad quality Polydor released western music whereas Indian film music from same company were mostly good.

 

[Saket]

The song, Dil aaj Shair Hai, Gham aaj naghma hai from the movie Gambler, has got no repeating lines. All lines come only once in the entire song!

Regards,
Saket

 

[studiord]

Re: First Indian Stereo soundtrack

Since in last few posts we're mainly discussing about pressings of Indian music I was referring to CBS labelled Hindi music. And of course "Young Tarang" is one such example. Pick up any Hindi film record, be it Sadma or any RD number on CBS, you'll find stunning SQ.(can't say same for regional records). As also G401fan mentioned about the bad quality Polydor released western music whereas Indian film music from same company were mostly good.

I completely agree with you Bhaskar. CBS pressings are at par with Polydor even though the vinyl is thinner and therefore gets warped easily. I would prefer CBS/Polydor any day over EMI/HMV.

 

[abhraneel]

The song, Dil aaj Shair Hai, Gham aaj naghma hai from the movie Gambler, has got no repeating lines. All lines come only once in the entire song!

Regards,
Saket

one more on similar line...
the song "humko aaj kal hai intezaar" of Sailaab by anupama deshpande has only the mukhda sung by her; it's the chorus who sang the antras...

cheers..
abhraneel..

 

[Hiten]

Please note:I don't know if there is any written record of these infos but I've heard all this from the very man who was appointed HMV/EMI technical head during 1965 to 1972 and one may say the father of stereo records, technically. He is the person who was appointed from EMI, Hayes office to setup stereo record pressing facility in India at Dumdum, Kolkata in 1965. This person was actively involved in developing the stereo vinyl records in UK

Bhaskar,
generally we Indians are not known to preserve and document things. Lots of info, technical details are/will be lost forever of golden era of Hindi film music. If you happen to know any person who has worked, managed was head of any department related to music from that era and happen to know technical details like equipments used, process involved or who were prominent recording engineers or lathe cutters, I would be happy to collate all information available and publish a book. Can you help me ?
Regards.

 

[Hiten]

...just wanted to add. For example I have a vinyl with blank white label it signed by Gonsalves and says 'clean score 8' I can only assume he was a lathe cutter and gave '8' score to the recording/cutting. wouldn't it help to know mastering quality if we had such info...

 

[bhaskarcan]

Bhaskar,
generally we Indians are not known to preserve and document things. Lots of info, technical details are/will be lost forever of golden era of Hindi film music. If you happen to know any person who has worked, managed was head of any department related to music from that era and happen to know technical details like equipments used, process involved or who were prominent recording engineers or lathe cutters, I would be happy to collate all information available and publish a book. Can you help me ?
Regards.

Hi Hiten,

+1 to your observation above. Whenever I used to sit with this person mentioned in my earlier thread I was feeling the same way as you. Plenty of time I thought of documenting his experience. But then AFAIK there is no supporting record/document/bibliography of what he is telling. And as I mentioned he has done it more than 50years ago. But the collection of sample records & Masters with him shows the amount of work he has done in this field. Lots of his ideas are contradicting to the populer belief of the so called experts around us. Let me give an very basic example. Few days back there was a discussion in this forum regarding the first prints of the old hindi movie albums. You must be knowing that this so called first prints are nowadays sold at an astronomical price in the used record market(specially RD records). And people are happy to buy them and believe them to be the first prints. So I asked this person is there actully a way to make out a first print record. Did they put any consistent mark on the label or in the matrix(which were absent on the subsequent pressings) to know a record to be of first print. His straight forward answer was 'no'. As long as he was with HMV/EMI(till 1972) in India they never actually had any policy of doing this. I can see lots of fellow members jumping on me giving numerous examples of first prints with them. But my idea of bringing this topic is to explain that I can't actually tell/prove who is correct. There is no supporting document/record with either party. So I can only listen to these "stories" from him and get amused. And mind you that this person is not an ordinary person, his qualification,experience and achievement in the field of audio reproduction is unparalleled atleast in India. This I can vouch for. But he likes to maintain a low profile away from the public eyes. So can't introduce him or his various monumentous achievements to you all. This is very sad for me also.

Regards

Bhaskar

 

[souravin]

It was my belief also that an inner ring ( with the surface label a bit higher on inner level) to be present on the first print LPs. But again no supportive doc, this was relayed to me by an avid record collector (R.D.Burman) only. However the cover/sleeves highlights a little much. For the LPs where both gatefold and singlefold cover exist, probably gatefold covers were published earlier.

However there were several incidents when re-release happened with different covers. In those cases, first print LPs are priced sky high.

Here is Adhikar first print LP

Second print

 

[Hiten]

Agree with you Bhaskar. But still it will be a good worthwhile effort. If you can document following it would be great. some information will be better than no information.
1) Details of the the equipments used. (Tapes, electronics to equalize, cutting lathe electronics, Cutting lathe equipments etc.)
2) Vinyl cutting limitations specific to our music.
3) Prominent Recording engineers
4) Prominent Cutting lathe operators.
5) Pointers to know a well recorded and cut record.
6) Who were the music directors/producers insisting on good quality sound reproduction.
more as I remember

As for first pressings, Since no catalogues are available and numbers on run out grooves may not be helpful, most people go by logic that vinyl master degrades with repeated use. So vinyl lot from fresh master presumably early era are preferred. And Record labels give indication when vinyls were pressed. Progression of vinyl labels are generally accepted as.... (1) Angel Big logo (2) Angel Small Logo (3) Angel in Box (4) HMV nipper in multi colour (5) HMV Nipper in Black and white colour. For Odeon Earlier pressing had a prominent ridge little smaller than original lable, On my rickety system I have found earlier pressing good. Particularly the loudness level. They were also heavier. These are just rough guidelines which can't be authenticated.
Regards.

 

[bhaskarcan]

Not to get into any controversy or show somebody wrong, let me produce some situation. Regarding the raised outer ring: I have one RD LP with raised outer ring which mentions on the label that "Recording first published 1972". So this cannot be the first print, correct?

Secondly what you're mentioning about Gatefold cover is correct. But then we are buying these records second hand and the vendors keep changing the covers to give their customer a better conditioned one. At least I've always got the liberty to check and choose the best conditioned record and the best looking cover when they had a multiple copies of the same. So it's difficult to judge that the record inside the gatefold or "first print cover" is indeed a first print one.

Now technically speaking, a subsequent print does not necessarily mean an inferior SQ. As per my source the "Metal Master Disc" was preserved carefully and fresh "Stampers" were made to press the new records. These stampers had a self life, say some specific nos.(which changed with time as technology changed), after that they were changed.

And surprisingly we only talk about the first prints of HMV/GCI records. What about the first print records of Polydor. How do we recognize them?

Again I'm writing all these not to hurt somebody, instead it hurts me when I learn that somebody has paid an astronomical sum for a so called first print record which actually have no prove of being so. And the cunning vendors who always think that they are more informed than us(of course all these information are for their own benefit and not ours), smile on our stupidity.

Listening to turntable and collecting records is a very nice hobby/passion. Let's make it an well-informed, more educated and sophisticated one. So that we can proudly pass this legacy to our next generation.

Bhaskar

 

[bhaskarcan]

Agree with you Bhaskar. But still it will be a good worthwhile effort. If you can document following it would be great. some information will be better than no information.
1) Details of the the equipments used. (Tapes, electronics to equalize, cutting lathe electronics, Cutting lathe equipments etc.)
2) Vinyl cutting limitations specific to our music.
3) Prominent Recording engineers
4) Prominent Cutting lathe operators.
5) Pointers to know a well recorded and cut record.
6) Who were the music directors/producers insisting on good quality sound reproduction.
more as I remember

Regards.

Hiten, I'll definitely raise these points (and if any more) next time I meet him. And make a note of them or maybe record our conversation if he permits. I definitely realize these info's are really invaluable from a vinyl collectors point of view.

As for first pressings, Since no catalogues are available and numbers on run out grooves may not be helpful, most people go by logic that vinyl master degrades with repeated use. So vinyl lot from fresh master presumably early era are preferred. And Record labels give indication when vinyls were pressed. Progression of vinyl labels are generally accepted as.... (1) Angel Big logo (2) Angel Small Logo (3) Angel in Box (4) HMV nipper in multi colour (5) HMV Nipper in Black and white colour. For Odeon Earlier pressing had a prominent ridge little smaller than original lable, On my rickety system I have found earlier pressing good. Particularly the loudness level. They were also heavier. These are just rough guidelines which can't be authenticated.
Regards.

Yes, the earlier pressings of some records are heavy and sound louder(better). Point to be noted here is the "earlier pressings", it can be first print, second or third, doesn't really matter.

If you have in your collection, can you(or anyone) make a picture representation of the evolution of the labels(Like Sourav did with the cover)? It'll be really helpful for many of us, specially the newcomers.

Thanks and best regards,

Bhaskar

 

[bhaskarcan]

DID U KNOW ???

Eggshell powder was used on the original "lacquer disc'' b4 applying Silver nitrate spray. This powder used to facilitate the separation method of the silver+copper "Matrix disc" from the lacquer. (citation needed )

Bhaskar

 

[Simon Wires]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unusual_types_of_gramophone_records

 

[Hiten]

If you have in your collection, can you(or anyone) make a picture representation of the evolution of the labels

Probably won't be having all types of lables, but will check and post.
Regards

 

[souravin]

Here is the Angel Big Logo. Please correct me if I'm wrong,

Chhote Nawab first print EP

Angel Box Logo. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Bhoot Bungla LP. Very rare now.

HMV/EMI in black and white

 

[souravin]

Another Angel print.

This is the first Aradhana LP,

Multicolor EMI print

 

[bhaskarcan]

Great going Sourav :clapping: :clapping:. But what I was really looking for was the actual pictures of labels on the records in a chronological order as described by Hiten in a "single" post. This will make it easier for us to understand the transition.

Best regards,

Bhaskar

 

[souravin]

Here is EMI Odeon level

EMI Columbia

 

[abhraneel]

Angel Box Logo. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Bhoot Bungla LP. Very rare now.

Do u have this?????

 

[souravin]

Do u have this?????

Yes Abhraneel. I got this LP in excellent condition only 1 and 1/2 years back and this snap is taken on my LP.