Do people still listen to vinyl?

[smedhavi]

Hi reddream,

You are right man, vinyl is garbage. I'll clear it for you.
.. and I'll do it for free

Thanks,
Sharad

 

[ajinkya]

rsud,

regarding your statement:
"The standard is the sound of a live unamplified instrument in an acoustic space.How close does the system get to sounding like the live instrument. This is the measure (and a standard established by the Absolute Sound Magazine)."

I have to disagree here. One instrument of the same class does not sound like another, depending on how it's tuned, how old it is, how the person playing it manipulates it and so on. Electric guitars use amplifiers for reverb effects as well. So they are not 'unamplified'. During a ghazal, an audience hears the singer and the tabla player through mics. Even if it's a 'mehfil' the sound is still 'coloured' by the people in front of you, the furnishings in the room, the walls....ad infinitum. There is no standard for the way an instrument sounds, unless one sits in an anechoic chamber and listens to the player one on one. I have never done that and I doubt most of us will ever get a chance to.

The point is, all us audiophiles sometimes get carried away by this whole notion of the 'system disappearing and music coming through'. Having sat through some live performances, it has been my experience that what you heae there and what comes on the LP/CD/tape after the sound engineer has mixed all the mic inputs, can never sound the same. The system can never produce the ambience of a live musical performance exactly since the room in which the performance was carried out is different from your living room and the sound engineer's notion of what the 'tabla' sounds like may be different from yours or mine. So we are chasing after a hollow 'holy grail'.

However, if your standard is that the system should reproduce exactly what the mixing studio wants us to hear, then yes, flat freq. response, transparency et all come into play and can be measured and subjectively heard as well.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the LP vrs CD debate but of system objectives in general

-Jinx.

 

[rsud]

rsud,

regarding your statement:
"The standard is the sound of a live unamplified instrument in an acoustic space.How close does the system get to sounding like the live instrument. This is the measure (and a standard established by the Absolute Sound Magazine)."

I have to disagree here. One instrument of the same class does not sound like another, depending on how it's tuned, how old it is, how the person playing it manipulates it and so on. Electric guitars use amplifiers for reverb effects as well. So they are not 'unamplified'. During a ghazal, an audience hears the singer and the tabla player through mics. Even if it's a 'mehfil' the sound is still 'coloured' by the people in front of you, the furnishings in the room, the walls....ad infinitum. There is no standard for the way an instrument sounds, unless one sits in an anechoic chamber and listens to the player one on one. I have never done that and I doubt most of us will ever get a chance to.

The point is, all us audiophiles sometimes get carried away by this whole notion of the 'system disappearing and music coming through'. Having sat through some live performances, it has been my experience that what you heae there and what comes on the LP/CD/tape after the sound engineer has mixed all the mic inputs, can never sound the same. The system can never produce the ambience of a live musical performance exactly since the room in which the performance was carried out is different from your living room and the sound engineer's notion of what the 'tabla' sounds like may be different from yours or mine. So we are chasing after a hollow 'holy grail'.

However, if your standard is that the system should reproduce exactly what the mixing studio wants us to hear, then yes, flat freq. response, transparency et all come into play and can be measured and subjectively heard as well.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the LP vrs CD debate but of system objectives in general

-Jinx.

I think you are over analyzing here. In any venue when you hear a live acoustic instrument you can tell it from reproduced sound. Doesn't matter the age of the instrument, how its played etc etc... An electric guitar is not an acoustic instrument, its an amplified instrument. It is not part of the measure. An acoustic guitar however is.

Stereo (or multichannel) reproduction is not even up to fooling us that its a live instrument. Lets at least get there first before we start worrying about is it a saxaphone in an empty room or crowded room (but on good high-end systems you can actually discriminate such details, including - on good unprocessed recordings- room size, hall ambience, where mikes are placed, where performers are standing, individual singers, etc).

That most concerts are amplified is also not relevant to this measurement. If music is important to you its your job to know what real unamplifed acoustic instruments can sound like. Most live amplified concerts are tolerated by true audiophiles. I spend extra time looking for small concerts where amplification is minimal or not present.

If the recording engineer f*cks with the sound its already damaged and unrecoverable. Again, has nothing to do with the standard / measure since such a recording would be discarded when critically evaluating an system.
True audiophiles look for recordings that are minimally or not at all mixed/processed.

What is missing between the sound of a live acoustic instrument and what we hear from stereo is not measureable by our current technology. Our ears can hear it. But most people are too lazy or simpleminded to educate their ears. Most people are oblivious to what is not measureable as they simplistically spout equations or "facts" they have heard from "somewhere".

 

[smedhavi]

I agree with rsud.

People who have enjoyed live concerts would agree that it is difficult to get the same enjoyment out of recordings. Most of the time live music sounds better than recorded music.
(There are exceptions, like the Jagjit Singh concert at Koramangala indoor stadium Bangalore, where he apologized before starting with the first Ghazal, but most of us still had to walk out at half time. The same venue was acoustically fixed by Disney for their magic show a month later.)

Coming back to sound recording, it is very easy to figure out that LPs do sound more natural. Almost everyone who owns a decent turntable figures that out easily. Even a child or an illiterate servant can tell that, without knowing which media is being played. It is not the rocket science we make out of it.

I was checking out the qawwali in Delli-6(movie) on CD, the claps were sounding so digitally compressed(MP3ish). I just clapped myself to check how different it sounds in real life. But I have other CDs (such as, Allahoo by Nusarat) that have done a better job at it, so some of it is related to the recording itself. LPs in general are more reliable while reproducing acoustic instruments and vocals. A Spanish guitar piece, or the way the cymbals crash demonstrates that easily. You hardly ever hear the 'treble' on an LP, it is just the cymbals, the bells, etc .

>>>One instrument of the same class does not sound like another, depending on how it's tuned, how old it is, how the person playing it manipulates it and so on

Ha, ha ha...
First a guitar needs to sounds like a guitar, a cymbal like a cymbal, and a drum like a drum. Only then we get to a new guitar vs an old guitar. When people created SACDs claiming that they were near LP quality, we knew what they are talking about, even if they did not succeed. Music on Blu-ray does get a bit closer, but still needs some more time to mature. I have LPs, CDs and Blu-ray disks playing on the same speakers.

Some people find it difficult to visualize. The way I see it is that the LP sound is like an HD picture with some grains (crackles due to scratches and dust) floating around, while CD sound is analogous to a VCD picture with no added noise. Anyone with a 20 inch screen would bet on VCD being great, while a large screen would tell you what it's worth. Similarly if you have a half decent amp and speakers, you would be able to 'see' the difference. If you have a dedicated CD player, just go ahead and audition a turntable that costs the same. You would not come back the same person.

Thanks,
Sharad

 

[ajinkya]

In any venue when you hear a live acoustic instrument you can tell it from reproduced sound. Doesn't matter the age of the instrument, how its played etc etc... An electric guitar is not an acoustic instrument, its an amplified instrument. It is not part of the measure. An acoustic guitar however is.

I agree with the fact that live instruments sound different from a recording. However, I think both you and smedhavi have misunderstood my statement. When I say that even two instruments in the same class 'can' sound different, I mean that you cannot compare two systems based on what you think the instrument 'should exactly' sound like, since it may have been tuned
differently, purposely by the artist themselves. This is what I mean when I say there is no standard. Yes, guitars sound like guitars etc. (obviously) but if someone tells me that this system reproduces a particular artist's guitar more 'realistically' than another, I will not believe them unless they personally heard the artist perform or have heard that same concert live.

If the recording engineer f*cks with the sound its already damaged and unrecoverable.

It's not about the engineer purposely messing up the sound. Any recording goes through some signal processing, either because the artist wants it (Beatles had many recordings with enhanced strings after the fact) or because the room acoustics have to be compensated for in the recording etc. My point was, at this time, you've already lost the 'original, live' recording. Some post-processing is inevitable. If one wants 'live' sound, one goes to the live recording. When one hears a recording, one has to accept that it will never be the original, no matter what technology is used. It's like asking a driving system to reproduce the thrill of racing a sportscar on an open road, while sitting in your armchair. No matter how sophisicated the technology, the reality will always be different.

What is missing between the sound of a live acoustic instrument and what we hear from stereo is not measureable by our current technology.

What is missing is the room acoustics themselves, which cannot be captured by simply placing a few mics at strategic locations. Which is why I reiterate that if one wants a 'live' sound, one needs to be 'live' in concert. Any system will always be a facsimile of this sound, although they are getting better and better at it, as in all technology.[/QUOTE]

regards,
Ajinkya.

 

[vinyl_man]

If thats a question..the answer is " Every audiophile listens to Vinyl".
If thats a doubt..the answer is " Vinly is coming back in huge way"

 

[smedhavi]

Best Buy to start selling Vinyl!


BEST BUY TURNING THE TABLES WITH VINYL - New York Post

Thought the vinyl comeback would die off, or at least flatten out? According to the New York Post, Best Buy will soon start selling vinyl across roughly 100 stores.

Vinyl sales grew 15 percent year-over-year in 2007 and 89 percent in 2008, making the 1.9 million vinyl albums purchased last year the most since Nielsen SoundScan began tracking sales in 1991. This year is shaping up to be even better, with 670,000 vinyl albums sold through mid-April.

This is like EZone doing it in India! No one would have imagined that this was possible. One big reason is that people buy vinyl records, not steal them, the way they steal digital music.

Thanks,
Sharad

 

[hemantwaghe]

If thats a question..the answer is " Every audiophile listens to Vinyl".
If thats a doubt..the answer is " Vinly is coming back in huge way"

Too bold statements
:clapping::yahoo:

Thanks for making me realize the Hi End CD Based Mc Intosh ,Wadia ,Mark Levinson & Conrad Johson systems I saw are not worth it!! I should have bought old turntable and stuck to older music as most of the music I listen to is not available on Vinyl...hyeah:

Anyway anyone compared Vinyl Vis A Vis SACD for same recording??

Again anyone has sales data of CD- Digital Music , I Tunes against Vinyl?

Nothing against vinyl but still I find conveneince of digital formats far better!

 

[moserw]

One big reason is that people buy vinyl records, not steal them, the way they steal digital music.

Let's hope the RIAA & MPAA combine don't read/realize this. Or else they will move us all back to Vinyl. Imagine having to carry all your music collection on Vinyl without MP3s on mobile, iPod, CDs, DVDs, etc.

 

[anm]

Though you may not have intended it, there seems a contradiction in these two statements.
As per your logic in the first statement, why have 150+ channels when most people will not watch 130 of them?
I would like to have just 15-20 channels on my tata sky, but with a better quality of video (720p is ok to begin with, 1080p will be better) and audio (5.1 dts/ dolby is ok to begin with, would better like 7 channels uncompressed).
Maybe we can get the better quality 15-20 channels instead of useless shitty 150 channels.

I can buy your LPs but I am not sure how you have treated them.

regards

We are in the world of compression, why ? I say its better. Why ? because we are just throwing out what the mass 95% of the people cant hear or see. Why do you want to waste storage on something which wont be appreciated.

I rather have a 150+ tata sky channel than 15 analog channels.

 

[gobble]

Thanks for making me realize the Hi End CD Based Mc Intosh ,Wadia ,Mark Levinson & Conrad Johson systems I saw are not worth it!! I should have bought old turntable and stuck to older music as most of the music I listen to is not available on Vinyl...hyeah:

I would go that way (vinyl) anytime rather than spend 60+K on on a digital source.

The thing with Vinyls is you can be happy with a smallish collection of records and keep re-visiting them again and again for the sheer thrill and exhilaration of way it sounds.


cheers

 

[smedhavi]

Nothing against vinyl but still I find conveneince of digital formats far better!

That is exactly what is happening!
Vinyl gives a better sound, while iPod (or equivalents) are more convenient. CD fits nowhere. So the sales for Vinyl records and downloaded music is going up, while CD sales are coming down (Nothing against CDs).

Imagine having to carry all your music collection on Vinyl without MP3s on mobile, iPod, CDs, DVDs, etc.

You could buy an USB enabled phono stage and get your digital music, for times when you are on the move or in your bedroom. The serious listening sessions could use the original vinyl. This way you get the best of both worlds.

Today I received two deliveries, Blu-ray disks from Amazon, and LP records from BollywoodVinyl. I love both the high resolution formats. I would also be a major customer for high resolution (96/24) music downloads, once I figure out how to play them in their full glory on my primary setup. Right now the only device I know of is the $2000 Logitech Transporter.

>>>One big reason is that people buy vinyl records, not steal them, the way they steal digital music.
Let's hope the RIAA & MPAA combine don't read/realize this. Or else they will move us all back to Vinyl.

Well that remains the basic a fact for any market economy. People will sell what gets them money, not what other people could take away for free.

Thanks,
Sharad

 

[smedhavi]

The thing with Vinyls is you can be happy with a smallish collection of records and keep re-visiting them again and again for the sheer thrill and exhilaration of way it sounds.

gobble, I agree with you 100%, but only people who have experienced this over the years could relate to this fact. A 10 minute audition would not bring this enlightenment.

Thanks,
Sharad

 

[hemantwaghe]

Nothing against vinyls or CDs ( long back my pa worked in Music India- Polydor's record department - so hamari roji vinayl se aati thi)

I am against generalist statement " All audiophiles listen to vinyl"

So it is litmus taste- and what about other rigs...( anyhow I do not claim to be an audiophile and have a decent rig )

 

[anm]

sweet/ sour? :lol: j/k

So it is litmus taste

 

[rsud]

Nothing against vinyls or CDs ( long back my pa worked in Music India- Polydor's record department - so hamari roji vinayl se aati thi)

I am against generalist statement " All audiophiles listen to vinyl"

So it is litmus taste- and what about other rigs...( anyhow I do not claim to be an audiophile and have a decent rig )

I agree with you being against this as a generalist statement. But I could easily be convicted of saying the same (vinyl rules!) myself.

But to fully disclose, I also run around with an iPod Touch which is loaded with current good pop tunes (by my reckoning) and one hit (one good song) wonder bands of the past.

Much is forgettable music that I will refresh as needed discarding older songs where the beat has become monotness.

When it comes time (which is hard to find with kids) to listen to music seriously as a foreground primary activity only vinyl will do. I have a decent CD player but it doesn't thrill or take me to the depths that my turntable and good vinyl can. There are details on analogue vinyl such as air and separation between instruments, details both micro and macro on human voice and fingering of instruments, etc that I don't hear even on current top end CD players. The worst is that all (I have heard) CDs/CD players have a grain or coar seness (had to put a space between else I get co****ness) to the sound that is fatiguing to listen to after a while on a high resolution system.

So nothing wrong with portable low res music. And vinyl upkeep requires a sizeable commitment. But an analogy to food is quite accurate in that pre-packaged food or fast food is good for sustenance, but for ultimate enjoyment we cook at home shopping carefully for the best ingredients or go to a fine sit down restaurant.

Many (or most) folks could care less about expertly prepared food and cant conceive anything beyond an applebees (a USA food chain for the masses). So it is with music reproduction. But imagine if all restaurants with anything better than applebee were wiped off the map!!

What had me and other analogue fanatics going (almost to the nut house) is that vinyl was actively killed when CDs were introduced particularly here in the USA.

In the 90s we saw nothing but a dismal future for our favorite hobby.

But humanity has (yet again!) prevailed!

High-end companies produced way better CD players after identifying many new sources of distortion in the digital realm (anybody old enough to remember perfect sound forever CD hype in the 80s!). In the very late 90s we had CD playback up to a level that didnt make our (analogue nuts) ears bleed.

And now vinyl is back in force, still a niche, but that is good because most (not all) vinyl is made carefully to very high standards.

 

[rsud]

Too bold statements
:clapping::yahoo:

Thanks for making me realize the Hi End CD Based Mc Intosh ,Wadia ,Mark Levinson & Conrad Johson systems I saw are not worth it!! I should have bought old turntable and stuck to older music as most of the music I listen to is not available on Vinyl...hyeah:

There is hope for you yet !!! hyeah:

As I alluded in my last post, CD/SACD playback is now in the good category (per me). If it is important enough for you, I think you will find that an analogue vinyl rig in the same price range will get you more. Good vinyl playback turntables start around $400 USA and will always out do a similar priced CD/SACD player. Once you pass about $1500 USA vinyl rules! But this is choice and I appreciate (as if what I think matters ) that what you saw is high-end. Someday there will be digital that will surpass vinyl and I look forward to it. But we ain't even close yet and are, right now for the masses, moving in the wrong direction.

But this is okay, in the olden days the masses had cassettes and the best mass medium to date (vinyl) did well in those days.

Anyway anyone compared Vinyl Vis A Vis SACD for same recording??

Again anyone has sales data of CD- Digital Music , I Tunes against Vinyl?

Nothing against vinyl but still I find conveneince of digital formats far better!

Vinyl sales are in the 1 or 2 million per year sales volume. Noise compared to the digital formats. But enough to keep several companies afloat that do a (mostly) careful job of putting out good vinyl. What is hilarious is that the big music companies are getting back into vinyl!!

Most pop music is now available on vinyl (especially if sourced out of Europe which never completely stopped making vinyl).

The irony that the digital format shoved upon us by the large labels in the 80s is morphing into what will kill them (the large labels are irrelevant in the iTunes / direct internet marketing, etc. world) is fantastic!

Now this a happy ending!!

 

[anm]

Gobble, what would a decent turntable rig cost (table, cartridge, phono preamp?) ? I am looking for a decent one too, but within a budget.

I would go that way (vinyl) anytime rather than spend 60+K on on a digital source.

The thing with Vinyls is you can be happy with a smallish collection of records and keep re-visiting them again and again for the sheer thrill and exhilaration of way it sounds.


cheers

 

[moserw]

Gobble, what would a decent turntable rig cost (table, cartridge, phono preamp?) ? I am looking for a decent one too, but within a budget.

@anm bhai - 20-25K (max 30K if you really want to splurge) will assemble a great PC with soundcard which will deliver better performance than anything else at that price point and much beyond. Even Audioengine A5 will rock with the right soundcard. Recently I checked the A5 with an Asus Xonar STX and they were way better than with the onboard Realtek or Creative.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[venkatcr]

@anm bhai - 20-25K (max 30K if you really want to splurge) will assemble a great PC with soundcard which will deliver better performance than anything else at that price point and much beyond. Even Audioengine A5 will rock with the right soundcard. Recently I checked the A5 with an Asus Xonar STX and they were way better than with the onboard Realtek or Creative.

Just my 2 cents...

I was wanting to say the same, but was wondering if the TurntablePhiles will beat me up.

Cheers