Help me to choose between these MEGA MONSTERS!!!

Excellent comparisions and background info on these monsters.

Thanks for the complements.:)

As a current owner of a DSP-A1, do you have any thoughts on the audio quality differences beween the A1 and the Z9. Looking at the audio section specs in the user manuals they are very similar other than power output, frequency response (FR) bandwidth - though the A1 shows that it is close to flat over 20-20kHz +/-0.5db. I am usually interested in THD, S/N, dynamic headroom, FR and channel separation.

Except both being Yamahas, DSP-A1 and DSP-Z9 are poles apart in terms of design philosophy and goals their engineers tried to meet during their development phases. In other words they are two very different AV amplifiers from different planets having very different levels of refinements in audio quality, video quality and mechanical construction.

Yamaha DSP-A1 [Released in 1997]

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Yamaha DSP-Z9 [Released in 2004]

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While AV amplifiers like DSP-A1 are built primarily keeping HT in mind, with DSP-Z9 Yamaha followed the path of Pure Audio Fidelity. With almost two times the price of DSP-A1 the components used are of much higher quality and so is the HiFi influenced engineering. Below I have highlighted an analog and two digital audio aspects of DSP-Z9 which makes it stand out from any other AV amplifier even today.

Analog Audio

Current AVRs irrespective of price or category use transistor switches in its circuitry for routing analog input signals inside the AVR. This solution widely used among AV amplifier manufacturers provides fast switching and are very cost effective. But these solid state switches may induce a little noise or distortion in the input analog signal. DSP-Z9 being an Uber on the other hand dumps this cost effective solution for Pure Audio Fidelity. Just like high end stereo equipments it uses high quality, expensive gold plated mechanical relays as switches imposing no noise or distortion on the input analog signal, faithfully following HiFi pedigree in its technical design. Thus DSP-Z9 is slow during startup, takes at around 15 seconds while performing a series of mechanically audible clicks emanated from multiple relays before it actually starts producing any sound. Here analog 2-channel Pure Direct is really direct and purely sublime.

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Use of Gold-Plated Relays in DSP-Z9

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Digital Audio

In DSP-Z9 the digital audio signals are processed at upto 24-bits, 96 kHz. Only when a 192 kHz signal is detected will it down-sample to 96 kHz to perform DSP processing. Using nine DSP processors it was capable to perform six times greater DSP capacity than its predecessor DSP-AZ1 (capable of 24-bits, 48 kHz max) and be on-par with DVD-A & SACD sound quality. DSP-Z9s processing ability was so ahead of its time that three years down the line when HD-Audio ready DSP-Z11 was introduced it sported the same 24-bits, 96 kHz max processing ability and so was five years later released DSP-Z7.

During Direct PCM/ DSD digital modes the input digital audio signal are fed directly to the internal power amplifier bypassing all types of processing or digital management at upto 24-bits, 192 kHz. Here the use of quality DACs becomes very important as they will in the end of the digital signal chain finally convert and convey the digital audio signal in analog power amp domain. As such DSP-Z9 uses the best DACs currently implemented in any AV amplifier aka the most expensive Burr-Brown PCM1792 for all of its 11 individual audio channels.

Burr-Brown PCM1792 as used in DSP-Z9

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Only the ESS E9018 has better performance than PCM1792, but then again no AV amplifier uses it as of now. Below is a chart comparing various DACs used in many AVRs (For more details refer Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity).

DAC Chart

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Note: All DAC data is, in dB. Typical values are black. Guaranteed minimum limits are shown in RED. SNR values are with an A-weighed filter in the signal path. Part marked SI have a single ended output. Parts marked Bal have balanced outputs.

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Your DSP-A1 is the fourth evolution of the Yamaha DSP-A1000 released way back in 1990. It is so very reveling from the internal construction and positioning of the main components (highlighted in different matching colors) inside these Yamaha AV-amplifiers as the same design is followed over and over through successive models with further refinements as depicted below:

Yamaha DSP-A1000 [Released in 1990]

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Yamaha DSP-A2070 [Released in 1992]

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Yamaha DSP-A3090 [Released in 1995]

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Yamaha DSP-A1 [Released in 1997]

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Yamaha DSP-AX1 [Released in 1999]

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Yamaha DSP-AZ1 [Released in 2001]

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Now have a look below at DSP-Z9 internals. Nothing here can be related to the former six TOTL AV amplifier models from Yamaha.

Yamaha DSP-Z9 [Released in 2004]

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Look how the different audio & video circuit boards are exposed in Yamaha DSP-A1.

Yamaha DSP-A1 Internal Shot

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Yamaha DSP-Z9 Internal Shot

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Now look at the complete absence of 11-channel analog and digital audio pre-amplifier boards as well the video boards from the picture of DSP-Z9. The truth is they are hidden completely in separate electromagnetically shielded chambers which again proves its HiFi pedigree.

Yamaha DSP-Z9 Analog, Digital & Video Boards hidden in separate electromagnetically shielded chambers

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I'd be interested in any listensing comparisions of the analogue vs pure direct modes of these units.

I once read a great personal review of DSP-Z9/ RX-Z9. The person was also comparing it with his own DSP-AX1/ RX-V1. The DSP-AX1 is the successor to your DSP-A1 and is said to be bit more refined. The reviewer is really knowledgeable and his subjective review will provide an in depth view to what you are looking about. Below are his quoted review and web link.

Yamaha RX-Z9 Review

Review by cjfrbw (A) on December 14, 2004 at 18:21:01

I thought I would do an AA thing for this receiver/ processor. I will not cover every detail; there are several thorough articles on the operation of the RX Z9 unit.

I will stick with my consumer oriented observations. I purchased the RX-Z9 as an upgrade to my previous Yamaha RX-V1. I made the upgrade because of:

1. The increased processing density of the sound fields in the RX-Z9

2. The included video processor/ scaler in the RX-Z9, which would simplify my home theatre setup. I could sell my outboard scaler and its cables

3. My satisfaction with previous Yamaha products.

My home theatre is a 120 inch diagonal screen with a CRT projector. My home theatre is combined with my main stereo system, a separate tubed system for audio only. I switch to the tubes system for music and use an electronic crossover and separate amps for the main speakers. When watching movies or TV, I use a passive crossover with the main speakers and use the Yamaha RX Z9 as the exclusive processor/amp.

When I have the tubed audio system engaged, I shut off the "A" speaker amplifier in the RX-Z9 and run a preamp feed to the RX-Z9 so that I can use the music surround modes in combination with my tubed audio system.

I have been a fan of the Yamaha surround modes since the Yamaha DSP-1 surround preamp, which I used for many years. I have used an ambience recovery system with my stereo system since 1978, when I purchased the first Advent SoundSpace Control, which fed ambience and hall size information to two rear channels.

I have never understood why ambience recovery systems have never caught on with audiophiles and only since home theatre has multichannel of any kind come into any kind of use or popularity. The traditional audiophile still tends to be a two channel die hard. When I was less well heeled, ambience recovery seemed to be a logical thing to have.

You hear of audiophiles who spend huge amounts on equipment, but never touch their rooms or do room treatments. There are audiophiles who spend gobs on their rooms, and they wind up with a single (usually small) listening space, that may be good for what it is, but is still limited in its ability to convey a sense of space or dimension outside of the two dimensional presentation of the main stereo system. Currently, there is another group who use digital processing systems to tailor the frequency response of the main stereo pair to the room acoustics, but this requires digital processing of the main stereo signal in the digital realm, no pure analog, and still leaves a tailored small space.

With a good ambience recovery system, the flaws of a small listening space are merged into the soundstage presentation of a much larger acoustic space. Ambience recovery is incredibly effective at smoothing presentation, enlarging the sound space, scotching nodes and standing waves, creating presence, and reinforcing midrange and bass richness. The listening room still needs to be treated for frequency balance below 200 Hz, but otherwise, the acoustic space that is heard is from the ambience recovery, and is much closer to the kind of acoustic space in which music is actually performed. It is very effective. I have never once wanted to listen to stereo sources without some kind of ambience recovery since my original Advent Soundspace Control.

Yamaha has always taken its ambience recovery modes from microphone recordings done in real listening venues, and that is a good thing. They also add front presence speakers, which fill out the stage depth and height. No other home theatre receiver offers the front presence speakers. The different listening modes offer a lot of choice, and there are always a few modes that work out well with particular types of music.

At some point, Yamaha stopped offering its digital sound space technology in separate components and merged them into its receiver line. At first, I was a little annoyed with this. After the RX V1, however, I realized that this made sense to combine the amps and the processor in on chassis, especially with the additional complexity of home theatre. It certainly cuts down on the need for cabling and conserves space. I use an 8.1 channel setup with Apogee Speakers up front and front center, small Infinity speakers for the front presence channels, small Apogees for the rear surround, and a Klipsch rear center surround with two Klipsch subwoofers, so the surround system is a mixed bag of speakers. This is generally not a problem with surround system, because the surround channels are generally contain a lot of un-phased reverberation and ambience and don't necessarily need to match.

Amplifier Quality: The amplifiers in the RX-Z9 are much improved over the RX-V1. Although I thought the amps in the RX V1 were quite good for what they were, I wouldn't have called them audiophile grade. I prefer tubed amps for music, because I find that transistors will glare, flatten, grey or smear at some point, no matter how good the quality. The amplifiers in the RX-Z9 are not only more powerful than those in the RX-V1, they have outstanding sound quality. I would call the amplifiers in the RX-Z9 audiophile or close to audiophile quality. They can play music with clarity and coherence with negligible compromise. I was really surprised at how good these were in a receiver type component. I didn't try the pure direct mode in two channels, but I suspect that it must be outstanding, because the regular amp mode is so good.

Surround Modes: The surround modes in the RX-Z9 have triple the sound density of the RX-V1 due to greater computing power. They are better than ever, and are the most natural sounding that I have heard. The DSP-A1 and the RX-V1 sounded good in the surround modes, but when the sound fields became "wet", they could become oppressive. I usually stuck to fairly dry surround modes. In the RX-Z9, even the dense, wet sound fields sound quite natural. I was thrilled with this, because I use the ambience recovery sound fields for music listening as well as home theatre.

Movie Surround Modes: The RX-Z9 offers everything in the book, from discrete 9.1 channel digital/ 96/24 DTS, to synthesized multichannel modes (DTS Neo 6.1, Dolby Pro Logic IIx, etc). This makes it great to listen to with standard TV sources as well as movies. I have a cable box that sends out HDTV signals at 1080i and digital sound. I actually prefer Yamahas proprietary 70mm movie modes to the standard DTS and Dolby or THX modes. The move surround performance is stunningly good. I use "The Matrix" as a kind of bellwether. The scene where Neo wakes up in the jelly bath and sees the Matrix for the first time the way it really is has some pretty astounding surround effects, with deep bass and crackling lightening and very wide deep sound. This scene never ceases to astound with the surround. It is mesmerizing through the RX-Z9. I have seen several HDTV movies with 5.1 soundtracks, including the Last Samurai, and the sound processing of the RX-Z9 is top notch, with crisp, audible dialog and involving sound.

Video Processing: I have used a couple of scalers, including the i-scan and the focus quadscan pro combined with a faroudja comb filter/ composite to component converter. The video scaler/processor in the Yamaha RX-Z9 is the best I have seen and is even better than the progressive scan output of my Sony DVP NS900v DVD player. It has better visual and color range and shadow detail, with negligible motion artifacts. It is very sharp, and seems to excel at recovering all available detail.

Unfortunately, copyrighted material will only display at 480p, and will not scale to the available 720p or 1080i modes. This is less of a problem than it seems with DVD, because most are anamorphic, and when "squeezed" actually have about 700p resolution in the picture area. In anamorphic mode DVD, no scanning lines are visible and the picture is sharp. The "squeezed" 480p picture of the RX-Z9 is not shamed by the 1080i HDTV picture from my cable box. However, the HDTV 1080i direct signal from the cable box is noticeably sharper and more saturated, as you would expect from HDTV.

The RX-Z9 does not have DVI input and output. I don't really care, because I plan to use CRT projectors anyway, and the picture quality on my 120 inch diagonal screen is outstanding without it. I am not really a fan of this technology; it is really a copy protection scheme even though it is marketed as a direct digital technology. My cable box does not use it, and transmits an HDTV signal that is of outstanding quality through its component outputs into the RX-Z9. It is nice to have a scaler in the receiver because, again, it cuts down on cables and complexity for non HDTV and non scaled sources. I will be selling my other scaling components.

Automatic room equalization with included Microphone: I admit I was a little skeptical of this technology. However, it extremely useful because of the many speakers and amplifiers in the home theatre setup. Basically, you set the microphone in your preferred seating position and the RX-Z9 runs test tones that automatically give you speaker distance, phasing, size (frequency range), volume levels and perform parametric equalization to make dissimilar speakers the same in frequency range and response. I wound up tweaking it some, because I preferred more bass than allowed by the automatic equalization, but the automatic room correction is really invaluable for finding incorrect phasing, time aligning speaker output because of asymmetric speaker positioning, and setting output levels for a myriad of speakers throughout the room. It is certainly a lot better than guessing at these, and I realized that complex home theatre/surround setups really require this type of technology to be set up at their best. I would count this as another desirable feature of the unit. There are three separate configurations for using two different subwoofers with multiple crossover points available, also extremely useful for bass management and tailoring the sound of the setup.

The GUI is a pleasure to use and us quite easy to navigate with its own remote. After the automatic equalization, you can view the compensation curves for the various speakers.

The RX-Z9 will decode multi channel DSD/SACD directly from a digital stream through its iLink hookup, though I could not test it since I don't have an i-link component. Also, if you use the multi channel direct inputs to connect a multi channel source, the digital processing soundfield modes can be used. I hooked up the SACD 5.1 output from the Sony DVP N900v to the direct multichannel input mode, and was surprised to hear the surround processing engaged. In the RX-V1, the multi channel input was volume controlled only, and did not go through the surround processing circuitry.

All in all, this is a great component. The high quality of the amplifiers makes it suitable as a true all in one audiophile component, a genuine surprise to me in a receiver type component. I love the surround modes for both music and home theatre and the inclusion of the video processor allows for greater efficiency and convenience in my CRT based home theatre.

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Product Weakness: No DVI input or output, need to connect these directly to monitor without going through the RX-Z9.

Product Strengths: Excellent Amplifier Quality, Surround Modes, GUI interface, Automatic Setup.

Web Link: General Asylum: REVIEW: Yamaha RX-Z9 Receiver by cjfrbw
 
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Awesome info dude, it seems z9 is really the king of yamaha avrs. The quoted review cleared many doubts I was having. :signthankspin: We will be deciding these weekend between the z9 or nr1000 after auditioning both. I want a z9.:cool:

After reading this thread many a times I have reached to the conclusion 7.1 channel analog inputs are the only source input for bluray audio for this ubers. As such using my asus xonar hdav 1.3 deluxe 7.1 channel analog outs will do the job?

Plz help me guys.
 
I am a PC guy. As such I have asus hdav 1.3 deluxe sound card in my pc which comes with complete 7.1 rca analog outs. Can I connect these outs to my avr? The card has its own bluray player and support PAP so the audio is not downsampled. Thanks bro for all your help.

After reading this thread many a times I have reached to the conclusion 7.1 channel analog inputs are the only source input for bluray audio for this ubers. As such using my asus xonar hdav 1.3 deluxe 7.1 channel analog outs will do the job?

Yes Sudhir, you will be safe with Asus's analogue out. Today's entry level AVR's don't have a great preamp section. The sound card should do better than at least them. Later, you may want to add a high end pre-processor. Marantz has recently taken the fight seriously, you should be able to get one for a reasonable price. For the time being you can use Asus into AVR's analogue inputs.
 
Thanks bro. This sound card have good rep in terms of sound quality and does not deteriorate blue ray sound as it support HDCP & PAP in PC. I think this will do for now. What is this ilink? Never heard of it. Both onkyo 1000 and yamaha z9 have ilink connections but i cannot find a audio device with ilink now?
 
iLink was invented as a proprietary way to connect high bandwidth devices. For example, on my Denon AVC-A1SRA I can connect an SACD player with iLink out. The amp will do the rest.
 
Thanks for the complements.:)

Except both being Yamahas, DSP-A1 and DSP-Z9 are poles apart in terms of design philosophy and goals their engineers tried to meet during their development phases. In other words they are two very different AV amplifiers from different planets having very different levels of refinements in audio quality, video quality and mechanical construction.

Thank you again rishiguru for the excellent additional information! You are a service the 'listening' community! I wil have to keep an eye out for a good used Z9, though I did just lay my hands on a stereo tube amp.
 
iLink was invented as a proprietary way to connect high bandwidth devices. For example, on my Denon AVC-A1SRA I can connect an SACD player with iLink out. The amp will do the rest.

Unfortunately it seems ilink devices are out of market. I cannot find a single bluray player with ilink. :sad: I was thinking to use ilink for digital multi-channel and use digital coaxial for 2-channel audio. But now I have to use 7.1 channel analogs for multi-channel sound. To my knowledge the bass settings, subwoofer crossover is set in digital, so will I be able to do that with the analog inputs of these avrs?
 
But now I have to use 7.1 channel analogs for multi-channel sound. To my knowledge the bass settings, subwoofer crossover is set in digital, so will I be able to do that with the analog inputs of these avrs?

There is no need to worry Sudhir. Your Asus HDAV 1.3 Deluxe is an excellent sound card. With its own media player supporting protected audio path required for non-downsampled HD-Audio bitstream decoding, the four Burr-Brown PCM 1796 DACs [second best DAC from Burr Brown line-up] on this card can be fed with upto 24-bits, 192 kHz, untouched. These cards have equivalent sound quality of any 1 lakh plus AVR currently available on market. I tried a lot to own this card, but they are not available in India.

Secondly, you can connect 7.1 channels analog RCA outs of this card with 7.1 channel analog ins of these legacy Ubers. This type of connectivity on DSP-Z9 will support complete bass management you are looking for. The DSP-Z9 will convert the input analog signal from your card to digital with use of ADCs and then apply bass management in digital domain, finally converting to analog with use of DACs and fed to internal power-amp.

Finally, dont make any rash decisions. Just because I love my DSP-Z9 (and so do some other forum members) does not imply it the best AV amplifier ever made. Never go for such tall claims. Pour you heart out and listen, feel the music in your soul and decide the one you want to live with. For me it was the DSP-Z9. And post some pics soon!!!
 
Would request you to post some pictures of your set-up Rishiguru.
This is an exceedingly addictive thread for someone who is really into the technical aspects of AVRs! :clapping:
 
Finally, dont make any rash decisions. Just because I love my DSP-Z9 (and so do some other forum members) does not imply it the best AV amplifier ever made. Never go for such tall claims. Pour you heart out and listen, feel the music in your soul and decide the one you want to live with.

All is settled as we have bought the Yamaha z9. My brother is someone I completely trust and rely upon when it comes to av gear as he is a guru just like you. Thank you so much rishiguru for this awesome thread which did phenomenal job in helping a novice like me.:signthankspin: Pardon me as I am not good in describing how they sound. According to my brother the onkyo nr1000 came closest to z9 in terms of sound. The marantz 9600 was also good sound wise produces very cheerful musical sound but falls little short in terms of bass why is dry sounding. The onkyo according to my brother eclipses our arcam 750 in terms of music reproduction and the movie experience also excellent. Power capability is something to be believed in. It had only hdmi 1 version so I believe only video can pass and of no use. The z9 was his best experience as per my brother; as it was most successful in conveying music in most accurate manner while completely separating each and every instrument along with voice. The sound he said is addictive and so is it power. It has the best dsp modes of all three and better sounding than onkyo in movies. He described the sound of z9 as airy, controlled, taught, and fathomless with deep soundstage. I dont understand what they mean.:p Boy I cannot wait.:yahoo: It will reach our shores very soon and I will be updating my experiences. I will also try to compare with our arcam. Thanks rishiguru and ranjeetrain.:thumbsup:
 
All is settled as we have bought the Yamaha z9. My brother is someone I completely trust and rely upon when it comes to av gear as he is a guru just like you. Thank you so much rishiguru for this awesome thread which did phenomenal job in helping a novice like me.:signthankspin: Pardon me as I am not good in describing how they sound. According to my brother the onkyo nr1000 came closest to z9 in terms of sound. The marantz 9600 was also good sound wise produces very cheerful musical sound but falls little short in terms of bass why is dry sounding. The onkyo according to my brother eclipses our arcam 750 in terms of music reproduction and the movie experience also excellent. Power capability is something to be believed in. It had only hdmi 1 version so I believe only video can pass and of no use. The z9 was his best experience as per my brother; as it was most successful in conveying music in most accurate manner while completely separating each and every instrument along with voice. The sound he said is addictive and so is it power. It has the best dsp modes of all three and better sounding than onkyo in movies. He described the sound of z9 as airy, controlled, taught, and fathomless with deep soundstage. I dont understand what they mean.:p Boy I cannot wait.:yahoo: It will reach our shores very soon and I will be updating my experiences. I will also try to compare with our arcam. Thanks rishiguru and ranjeetrain.:thumbsup:

Welcome to high-end AVR owner's club Sudhir. You have made a practical and smart choice.
 
All is settled as we have bought the Yamaha z9.Thanks rishiguru and ranjeetrain.:thumbsup:

Congratulation for the purchase!!! You and your brother took the right decision of auditioning and then selecting the product. Specs are not everything. May it bring eternal moments of musical bliss to your life.:)

Caution: Shown below is the golden hued precision milled solid aluminum volume knob of Yamaha DSP-Z9. Use it with utmost care and never crank up suddenly as you may be habituated with your Panasonic boomboxes or Logitech multimedia speakers. Doing so may very well end up with smoking voice coils of your loudspeakers drivers.

Yamaha DSP-Z9

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Some updates to all. The Yamaha z9 is going through its paces in my brothers place and he is spellbound by its sound. His stereo setup consists of naim supernait 2 amplifier and focal Diablo utopia speakers. There is no home theater arrangement over there so he was comparing with his focals in stereo which are not as big like paradigm signature s8 but I believe they are good for his amplifier and a good speaker to do comparisons. They sound very different but still z9 is on par with naim in terms of detailing, transparency and he is truly surprised to see the levels of refinement z9 is achieving in an avr type component. The biggest difference is z9 is very accurate and makes exact neutral representation of the recordings while the naim sometimes exaggerates some tones which make it sound more musical sometimes but not always. Hope his love for pop, jazz, classical pays good heeds to my rock, hip-hop & movies. Its just that I have wait for a month to have this thing arrived is killing me.:cool:

The other aspect is the power capability of the z9. During auditioning the previous owner had big speakers, I do not remember the name maybe infinity but they were four ohm speakers and the z9 was driving them effortlessly at very loud levels. Rishi is z9 the all time best and most powerful avr of Yamaha? In previous posts I find you have auditioned the z11 so what were the differences?
 
I read some good reviews of Z7,but when read power usage,its around 500w only.

Are you referring to wattage figure at the back panel of the device? The z7 may be 500 watts but my Yamaha z9 has 1000 watts etched at back. Does this mean my z9 is going to consume 1 kilowatt of electricity each hour? Even if I consider 5 hrs of listening, movies, gaming this means 5 kw a day and 150 kw for a month. Bills are goings to climb over the roof. Can somebody shed some light as I am really worried about such insane power consumption figures.
 
Are you referring to wattage figure at the back panel of the device? The z7 may be 500 watts but my Yamaha z9 has 1000 watts etched at back. Does this mean my z9 is going to consume 1 kilowatt of electricity each hour? Even if I consider 5 hrs of listening, movies, gaming this means 5 kw a day and 150 kw for a month. Bills are goings to climb over the roof. Can somebody shed some light as I am really worried about such insane power consumption figures.
Its not like that.If you use full power of Z9(full volume all ch driven)then only you will consume 1000w power.Average listing level wont use that much.
Its always better to have more power to drive speakers with good command.
 
Thanks dude. So it seems the under normal operation it will be more or less 40 to 50% consumption which means on an average 450 watts. The other negative aspect of z9 is heat. My brother has reported the top panel getting burning hot pretty quickly during auditioning. I have seen before in this thread rishiguru is using fans to cool, so z9 gets hot pretty quick.
 
Thanks dude. So it seems the under normal operation it will be more or less 40 to 50% consumption which means on an average 450 watts. The other negative aspect of z9 is heat. My brother has reported the top panel getting burning hot pretty quickly during auditioning. I have seen before in this thread rishiguru is using fans to cool, so z9 gets hot pretty quick.
Actually amplifier section of Z9 is congested.If you dont keep it in open place heat will be more.I have seen with Rotel power amp(100wpc) which heats up when kept aside.If kept below ceiling fan,I can hardly feel any heat.
 
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