Help me to choose between these MEGA MONSTERS!!!

[SudhirPunjabi]

Yep these avrs are cramped. So many things in so little space. But what I learnt is more the power more the heat. Z9 is so powerful it produces a lot more heat with twice the number of transistors than previous model. Are the component video outs of z9 capable to feed 1080p? I have a small 32 incher lcd in my room.

 

[rishiguru]

Some updates to all. The Yamaha z9 is going through its paces in my brothers place and he is spellbound by its sound. His stereo setup consists of naim supernait 2 amplifier and focal Diablo utopia speakers.

These are highly regarded amplifier and loudspeakers, bound to produce true soul of music. The Naim SUPERNAIT 2 is praised by many audiophiles as one of the best stereo integrateds there is, selling for US $5,000. Not cheap. The Focal Diablo Utopia bookshelves on the other hand retails for US $12,000 a pair and are considered one of the best bookshelves on the planet one can lay hands on. Truly expensive dream setup for a common man like me. Hope I was able to hear this setup. Have you heard them?

Naim SUPERNAIT 2

Focal Diablo Utopia

There is no home theater arrangement over there so he was comparing with his focals in stereo which are not as big like paradigm signature s8 but I believe they are good for his amplifier and a good speaker to do comparisons. They sound very different but still z9 is on par with naim in terms of detailing, transparency and he is truly surprised to see the levels of refinement z9 is achieving in an avr type component.

Truly surprised to know Yamaha DSP-Z9 being an AV amplifier is reaching the lofty levels of refinement and musicality offered by Naim's best stereo integreted. The Diablos must be the key to unlock DSP-Z9's truly potential in musical reproduction and make it shine. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Yamaha DSP-Z9

The biggest difference is z9 is very accurate and makes exact neutral representation of the recordings while the naim sometimes exaggerates some tones which make it sound more musical sometimes but not always.

Exactly!!!

This was what I felt during auditioning of my Yamaha DSP-Z9 with DSP-Z11. During some climax scenes in movies and more so in music DSP-Z11 had this tendency to sometimes sound more mesmerizing, dramatic & sharp whereas DSP-Z9 was so neutral sounding that initially I felt it was missing the spark. There is an essence of power to be felt in the sound signature of DSP-Z9 with a complete lack of any dramatic feel. I was lucky to have a long auditioning period and it was only later that I really started to enjoy & appreciate its accurate representation especially in music. DSP-Z9 has the nature of not over emphasizing or over exaggerating or undermine any note or tone. It plays music/ movies as intended by the music/movie sound director without adding any color to the sound signature.

I still say DSP-Z11 is the best for HT buffs and have enough in it to put big smile while playing music. It is that good. Only when sound quality & sheer power output are of paramount importance then legacy AV amplifiers like DSP-Z9 really shines and has the upper hand. Thinking as of now, DSP-Z9s performance with those Focal Diablo Utopias doesnt surprises me at all, as it was Yamahas only AV amplifier to have technical design philosophy completely based on Pure Audio Fidelity. For DSP-Z9, Yamaha invested their design time where it mattered most -- sound quality. You cant argue with that. With this in mind, DSP-Z9 is best suited to those whose heart belongs to two-channel/ multi-channel music.

It was also Yamaha's only "Uber" that was completely built in Japan. As such it had the best product quality of any AV amplifier they made. DSP-Z9 has a very expensive and upmarket feel to it.

Yamaha DSP-Z9

The other aspect is the power capability of the z9. During auditioning the previous owner had big speakers, I do not remember the name maybe infinity but they were four ohm speakers and the z9 was driving them effortlessly at very loud levels. Rishi is z9 the all time best and most powerful avr of Yamaha? In previous posts I find you have auditioned the z11 so what were the differences?

I do not know if DSP-Z9 is Yamahas best offering, but certainly it is their most powerful AV amplifier. It's power output capability even surpasses their recent flagship MX-A5000 (US $3,000) dedicated multi-channel power amplifier that bundles with their CX-A5000 (US $3,000) AV processor.

Yamaha CX-A5000 + MX-A5000

Yamaha CX-A5000 Internal View

After going through the catalog of Yamaha recent TOTL AV separates, CX-A5000 + MX-A5000 combo, I found Yamaha have mentioned their 11 channel MX-A5000 power amp is based on the DSP-Z11 components.

Compare: DSP-Z11 (Left) vs MX-A5000(Right)

Some noteworthy points:

1) MX-A5000 uses the same chassis of DSP-Z11 AV amplifier released in 2007 with different front, back & side panels.

2) MX-A5000 uses the heatsinks of DSP-Z11 which implies power amp circuit design is identical. Minimal cost incurred.

3) The DSP-Z11 had 11 powered channels (140 Wpc X 7 + 50 Wpc X 4) @ 0.04% THD @ 8 ohms. The MX-A5000 have 11 powered channels (150 Wpc X 7 + 150Wpc X 4) @ 0.06 THD @ 8 ohms. An increase in THD level implies under all probability it is (140 Wpc X 7 + 140Wpc X 4) = (140 Wpc X 11) @ 0.04% THD @ 8 ohms. In comparison the DSP-Z9 could have pumped out (190 Wpc X 7 + 50 Wpc X 2) @ 0.04% THD @ 8 ohms.

4) DSP-Z11 used a pair of Toshiba 2SA2121/ 2SC5949 power transistors for each of it 11 channels. The rail voltage to the power amp was (64VDC X 2) for its (140 Wpc X 7) channels and (37VDC X 2) for its (50 Wpc X 4) channels. MX-A5000 uses the same power transistors with uniform rail voltage of (64VDC X 2) for all its (140 Wpc X 11) channels.

5) DSP-Z11/ MX-A5000 uses 22 power transistors in total for 11 channels. DSP-Z9 used 32 for 9 channels.

6) Since MX-A5000 uses the same power amp circuit board of DSP-Z11, it follows Three-stage Darlington circuit topology (mentioned in catalog) for all of its 11 channels. The DSP-Z9 in comparison uses Dual Three-stage Darlington circuit topology for its main 7 channels and Three-stage Darlington circuit topology for the other 2 presence channels. Dual Three-stage Darlington output stage circuit topology is more robust and will be more stable under 4 ohms load.

7) DSP-Z11 used cheaper E-I core power transformer while MX-A5000 uses a much higher quality toroidal transformer alike DSP-Z9. However, DSP-Z9s toroid is bigger and have a higher power rating.

8) MX-A5000 uses the same 2 X 27,000uF power capacitors of DSP-Z11 for its 11 channels of amplification. In comparison DSP-Z9 uses 2 X 28,000uF for its 9 channels.

9) The power consumption rating of DSP-Z9 is 1000 watts while CX-A5000 + MX-A5000 combo is 80 + 650 = 730 watts.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Yamaha MX-A5000 Internal View

Yamaha DSP-Z9 Internal View

DSP-Z9s internal power-supply and power-amp are influenced by dedicated PA power amplifier designs and as such capable to provide large amounts of current with ease even under 4 ohm loads. MJP of Sound&Vision (formerly known as hometheater) magazine measured the power output of both DSP-Z9 & MX-A5000 in his lab, and below are the results @ 1 kHz @ 0.1% THD.

2-channels @ 8 ohms
Yamaha MX-A5000: 165.3 Wpc
Yamaha DSP-Z9: 179.8 Wpc

2-channels @ 4 ohms
Yamaha MX-A5000: 218.7 Wpc
Yamaha DSP-Z9: 318.4 Wpc

As seen under 8 ohms loudspeaker loads differences in power-output per channel (Wpc) are minimal, but as tougher 4 ohm loads are applied the performance difference becomes dramatic. DSP-Z9 is now capable to deliver 100 watts more power per channel i.e 100 X 2 = 200 watts more in a stereo setup. This implies DSP-Z9 has more reserve power and even with just 14 watts advantage per channel under 8 ohms load will posses much more dynamic headroom than MX-A5000. Changing the landscape to multi-channel power output figures lets investigate the results as below:

5-channels @ 8 ohms
Yamaha MX-A5000: 116.5 Wpc
Yamaha DSP-Z9: 166.6 Wpc

7-channels @ 8 ohms
Yamaha MX-A5000: 99.1 Wpc
Yamaha DSP-Z9: 140.6 Wpc

DSP-Z9 is capable to deliver 50 watts more per channel, i.e 50 X 5 = 250 watts more under 5-channel operation and 45 X 7 = 315 watts more in a 7-channel setup. We are not even considering 4-ohm load handling capacity of DSP-Z9 under multi-channel mode,as the differences will be even more dramatic.

DSP-Z9 is by far the most powerful AV amplifier form Yamahas stable and amazingly contain more juice than their dedicated MX-A5000 power amplifier can muster. Which is unfortunate. But then again this is not to imply in any sense that DSP-Z9 is better than their new CX-A5000+MX-A5000 combo. I hope Yamahas newest separates to be even better in terms of sound quality and ease of use than DSP-Z9.

Yamaha DSP-Z9 + Bower & Wilkins 802 Diamond floorstanders

 

[SudhirPunjabi]

yeah i have heard this setup when I was in my brother's place. Sounds awesome but it seems i am in love with multi channel just like you. Thanks bro for guiding us. Ranjeetrain you too. The z9 is so good sound wise, my brother had decided to have his own.:yahoo:

 

[SudhirPunjabi]

can somebody kindly elaborate the differences between composite, s-video and component video jacks. I am going to have a z9 which have all three of them as monitor outs. Which one should I use?

 

[sanjay0864]

can somebody kindly elaborate the differences between composite, s-video and component video jacks. I am going to have a z9 which have all three of them as monitor outs. Which one should I use?

In order of preference:
1. Component
2. S-Video
3. Composite

Do keep in mind that depending on the source input, you might need all three connections to the display.

 

[SudhirPunjabi]

thanks bro. Figured out component video are the best among these three. My z9 can do 1080i or 720p max through these. I am now puzzled as which one to use since some where i read 720p is better than 1080i but i always though 1080 is better.

 

[ranjeetrain]

thanks bro. Figured out component video are the best among these three. My z9 can do 1080i or 720p max through these. I am now puzzled as which one to use since some where i read 720p is better than 1080i but i always though 1080 is better.

Unless your display can't use these signals, use the highest possible output from your AVR. 1080 from the AVR would most certainly be better than 720 if the display is capable of rendering it.

You should be using the best output provide by the AVR, which is Component in your case. S-vid and composite are provided only for backward compatibility.

 

[SudhirPunjabi]

Yeah but my z9 does 720p which is progressive and 1080i which is interlaced and consumes equivalent bandwidth to 540p. Am i right? So isn't it that 720p will be smoother and richer to watch than 1080i. As my display is capable of 1080p the question lies whether to feed it it with 720p or 1080i.

 

[deseronrr]

I ended up selling my denon 5803 and getting b&k 507 42 current amp peak which denon is only 17-14 current amp peak. I have polk lsi15 modified caps that are power hungry the denon could not quite do it . I also had a pioneer sc-37 with a aragon 3005 amplifier that power my whole system with ease . But sold them at the time I had two.

 

[spirovious]

Yamaha CX-A5000 + MX-A5000

Yamaha CX-A5000 Internal View

After going through the catalog of Yamaha recent TOTL AV separates, CX-A5000 + MX-A5000 combo, I found Yamaha have mentioned their 11 channel MX-A5000 power amp is based on the DSP-Z11 components.

Updating with some reviews-
Yamaha CX-A5000 Surround Processor and MX-A5000 Amplifier Page 2 | Sound & Vision
Yamaha CX-A5000/MX-A5000 review - Processors

 

[Rsesha]

Rishiguru

Thanks to your highly informative post about the HK vs. the Lexicon. I am curious about your tantatlizing quote:

"Apart from marketing there are obvious differences between the two; while both being designed in United States (US), Lexicons are also assembled there packing better built quality, exotic designs schemes using selected, expensive Grade-A quality electronic components for supreme performance & reliability wrapped in an elegant, sturdy chassis to sustain prolonged lifespan for next quarter of a century, the average minimum life of Ubers. Looking at the innards of 2004 released US $7,000 Lexicon RV-8 avr revels this. More of Lexicons in my next post."

Can you please expand on your comment about the lexicon and give us a run down of your expert view on Lexicon RV 8. I am a lucky owner of this superb machine which I bought recently used from another audiophile. While it is certainly one the very best I have heard, I would like your opinion as well.
Thanks,
R

 

[deseronrr]

I ended up selling my denon 5803 and getting b&k 507 42 current amp peak which denon is only 17-14 current amp peak. I have polk lsi15 modified caps that are power hungry the denon could not quite do it . I also had a pioneer sc-37 with a aragon 3005 amplifier that power my whole system with ease . But sold them at the time I had two.

So I tried the b&k 507 sounded more powerful but it did not float my boat
Compared to my 5803 . So I decided to get a anthem avm 20 with b&k 4420 for fronts ,b&k 442 for surrounds , soundstream m1 monoblock thx modified with better caps for center . Sound is way better than my old 5800,5803,b&k 507 much clearer detail in two channel mode better in home theater also , just upgraded to anthem avm 30. Still have to see if the z9 can beat it.

 

[rishiguru]

So I tried the b&k 507 sounded more powerful but it did not float my boat. Compared to my 5803 . So I decided to get a anthem avm 20 with b&k 4420 for fronts ,b&k 442 for surrounds , soundstream m1 monoblock thx modified with better caps for center .

Sound is way better than my old 5800,5803,b&k 507 much clearer detail in two channel mode better in home theater also , just upgraded to anthem avm 30.

Good to know your views mate. AV separates are any-day better than AV amplifiers provided one has the cash to spend.

 

[rishiguru]

As far as build quality the Z9 is a tank and never had a problem for the last eight years. Everything works as advertised. Yamaha builds good products. My A-9 bought way back in 1979 still runs. Great stereo. Hopefully they will avoid a mess like z11 in near future.

Are you referring to the Yamaha A-9 integrated stereo amplifier from 1979. Going by this thread today it struck my eye in one of your posts and subsequently found out A-9 happens to be rare gem and one of the finest stereo integrated's in Yamaha history. One must be really lucky to own one like you. With a list price of 245,000 in Japan in 1979 which equates to US $2,400 back then, this was without doubt an expensive piece of stereo equipment.

Yamaha A-9 [Integrated Stereo Amplifier]

Great looks, undoubtedly! Must me magnificent to hear.

The most standout feature of A-9 as I found out was the placement of pre-amp audio inputs, which instead of being located normally at the back of the unit, were placed at the top of the unit. The reason I believe was to shorten the distance/path traversed by the input wires from input terminals to the pre-amplifier board. Generally the pre-amplifier used to be situated at the front of the unit where all the controls on the faceplate are connected to it. As such by shortening its distance from the audio inputs terminals and being on the pre-amp circuit-board itself, there was no need of any wires. They must have avoided some distortion by doing so; at this level of sound quality.

A-9 used a large toroidal transformer, which by itself are rare in their history except for super high end Hi-Fi models like A-S3000 as of today. And going by the size of it as depicted below it should be around 500VA or so. A-9 sported low noise FETs in its power stages, it must be a part of their true audio masterpieces; as produced during late 1970s.

Yamaha A-9 Internal View

With those four big caps (15,000uF X 4) and this huge transformer, power was abundant with 150 watts per channel at 4 ohms throughout the audible frequency range in Class-B. But wait, the A-9 was also switchable to pure Class-A mode which audiophiles love, where it still delivered 40 watts per channel at 4 ohms throughout the audible frequency range. With its fully copper plated chassis it weighed a hefty 21 kilos.

To me the A-9 embodies the quintessential Yamaha: assumed almost deceptive discretion and an absence of sound signature. Would dream to hear.

Yamaha A-9 Side View

Yamaha A-9 Back View

 

[George T]

"After a lot of wandering of will I or will not, finally I thought to spare an hour or two from my hectic schedule to write a little bit about the advent of Uber AV amplifier era which lasted from 2000 to 2007. This personal write up depicted below is my own view regarding how the AV amplifier industry evolved in the last ten to twelve years.

Before one starts reading, let me firmly stress that ones own opinions may vary and I do respect with outmost sincerity every ones own perspectives & views. It will be of great help if he/ she express his/her own views regarding the topic in this post."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great!!! :clapping:Thanks for this Brilliant Article. I saw the Denon AVC-A1Sr first on the review page of the HOME CINEMA CHOICE magazine of March 2003 where it was compared with the H/K AVR -8500 , and Pioneer, Yamaha ( I forget the model nos.). that one was still considered the top pick and a big price tag. But it has been on my "Nice to have" list for all these years but even now the used ones on Ebay cost quite a bit:sad:. As you said Vision has overpowered Sound in the Mass market and the Amps have become leaner. A Salute to the dizzy days of Mega Sound early 2000s and to DENON

 

[Atif Hussain]

Going through this highly educative and inspiring thread I finally got hold of a yamaha z9. Frankly I cannot sleep last night as I was completely taken away by it sound, such a wonderfully melodious, warm & clean sound that I never heard from AVRs and went on listening whole night. I am yet to see a movie through it. I dunno what I am going with my new marantz avr which I bought last year. It is nowhere near the z9. I desperately need some help. Can anybody point out where I can have its manual?

 

[spirovious]

Going through this highly educative and inspiring thread I finally got hold of a yamaha z9. Frankly I cannot sleep last night as I was completely taken away by it sound, such a wonderfully melodious, warm & clean sound that I never heard from AVRs and went on listening whole night. I am yet to see a movie through it. I dunno what I am going with my new marantz avr which I bought last year. It is nowhere near the z9. I desperately need some help. Can anybody point out where I can have its manual?

You can sell marantzs surely in that case and get good BDp with 7.1 analog out which can be used for Bluray.
OR
Try marantz 5.1 preout connected to Z9 so that HD audio can be decoded.

Check which sounds appeals you and decide.

 

[Atif Hussain]

You can sell marantzs surely in that case and get good BDp with 7.1 analog out which can be used for Bluray.
OR
Try marantz 5.1 preout connected to Z9 so that HD audio can be decoded.

Check which sounds appeals you and decide.

I am thinking on the same line of selling the marantz and get hold of good BD player with 7.1 channel analogue out. Any suggestions?

I am still in lookout for z9 manual. Anybody has one in pdf format?

 

[hemantwaghe]

I am still in lookout for z9 manual. Anybody has one in pdf format?

There is a good site called Google - have u tried it?

just type Yamaha z9 manual and look what I found

http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/av/english/am/DSP-Z9_e.pdf

 

[spirovious]

I am thinking on the same line of selling the marantz and get hold of good BD player with 7.1 channel analogue out. Any suggestions?

As said,oppo BDP will be good option.