Help me to choose between these MEGA MONSTERS!!!

[iaudio]

Rishi, I recently heard the denon a1 paired with a pair of vintage speakers and was really impressed. It did away with any underestimation of its capability thinking its an AVR.

 

[rishiguru]

Rishi, I recently heard the denon a1 paired with a pair of vintage speakers and was really impressed. It did away with any underestimation of its capability thinking its an AVR.

Which A1 are you talking about?

1) AVC-A1D
2) AVC-A1SE
3) AVC-A1SRA
4) AVC-A1XV
5) AVC-A1HD

If it is the Denon AVC-A1SE or AVC-A1SRA as auditioned by me and mentioned in this thread then for sure you have heard one of the finest sounding AV amplifier of all time. They are considered as the most revered AV amplifiers of Denon and voted as their best creation by respected audio/video publications like hometheater.com. Though my favorite in the Denon lineup is undoubtedly the "HULK" aka AVC-A1XV which I am yet to hear.:sad:

Here is the link: A tribute to Denon AVC-A1SE (AV amplifier) aka AVR-5800 (AVR)

A look at the internals of US $4,000 AVC-A1SE released way back in 2000 revels the stacks of performance it can deliver.

 

[rishiguru]

so why there aren't any current AVRs that can match these stars from yesteryears?

Since there is no such current market need. Since there is no such current market trend to create such ultra high end AVRs of yesteryears. Since current AVRs have a nine months development cycle and new features needs to be added every year to stay competitive. Since under current economic condition, manufacturers are trying to save every bit of money from every angle be it recycling a used design, use of good quality electronic components,chassis and casing rather than extravagantly costly ones to keep the price down.

Now-a-days AVR manufacturers create a base design and in every nine months design cycle update the analog/ digital circuit boards to take care of the connectivity side while adding new features and connectivity like WiFi etc according to market needs. To me this trend is not bad at all under the current circumstances.

If yamaha has the capability why has it stopped making a comparable but modern avr?

Since you are talking about Yamaha lets have a close look at their current range topping TOTL Aventage RX-A30xx series. It was first introduced in the year 2010 with RX-A3000 having a US $1,800 list price and since then got subsequent incremental upgrades every year with new supporting features and connectivity while retaining the same base design leading to RX-A3010 and RX-A3020. In 2013 we have RX-A3030.

Some two decades ago in 1990 the same course was followed with their TOTL AV amplifier/ AVR lineup with DSP-A1000 having a similar US $1,800 list price. Twenty years down the line their current TOTL receiver amazingly costs the same while dollar inflation rate have almost doubled!!! In 1990s the RX-A30xx would had been sold as a US $900 mid priced series and never be considered to garner the TOTL tag. But now with current economic conditions and consumers feature oriented mindset with less emphasis on the internal audio amplifier performance and built quality this becomes entirely viable.

The DSP-A1000 base design after six successive iterations finally reached its peak potential with DSP-AZ1. Introduced in 2000, AZ1 used to cost US $2,800. At those times development cycles were much bigger with a minimum of twenty one months. With more than 2x development time cycle wrt to the current trend, engineers had more time in hand to implement bigger modifications in successive models for further refinements in terms of SQ. Added features had much bigger steps.

This leaves us with a void space between 2001 to 2009. What went on during this decade in Yamaha? How many new TOTL AV amplifier/ AVR models were released during this time? The answer is just two. One came after a lengthy gap of four years. Named DSP-Z9 with wallet busting US $4,500 price tag. The other again after long gap of 3 years. Named DSP-Z11 with an equally astounding US $5,500 price tag. The question arises as of why just two models were released with such unheard astronomical prices for an AV amplifier? Did Yamaha Audio go crazy? No. Yamaha reeled only two TOTL models because this was the time of receiver war between top manufacturers which lead to the creation of some of the most iconic and revered multi-channel AV amplifiers/ AVRs to whom just Top Of The Line tag did no justice. They were rightfully called Uber AV amplifiers/ AVRs. Yamaha have just two Ubers namely DSP-Z9 and DSP-Z11. It took them a lot of time and hell lot of money for development and create these beasts from scratch. And time is money. Yamaha took four years just to develop the DSP-Z9 and another three years for DSP-Z11.

All other manufacturers followed a similar trend of releasing one, two or a maximum of three Ubers during this decade. Now comes the most interesting part. These Ubers can further be divided into two distinct sub groups. The first group (Group-A) were pre 2007 models and the design philosophy were more concentrated in accurate stereo/ multi-channel audio reproduction from analog/ digital sources, video up-scaling being a secondary aspect. The second group (Group-B) models were released from 2007 onwards boasting HDMI 1.3a and in having inbuilt decoders for Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio formats for Blue-ray discs. In these models more effort were put in perfecting HD audio and video decoding, up-conversion to accurate 1080p True HD videos via HDMI as well as proper networking capabilities, iPod integration and USB inputs. Audio quality and power output were secondary aspects.

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The birth of two new digital audio formats:

DVD-AUDIO

DVD-Audio is nothing less than the world standard for super-high fidelity sound. DVD-Audio entered the marketplace in 2000 and was able to store 1,100 times more information per second than a CD. With a super-high frequency rate of 192,000 samples per second, 4.3 times greater than an audio CD, 256 times the resolution of CD was obtainable. A frequency response up to 96 kHz, and an extraordinary dynamic range of up to 144 dB translated into a musical experience that went beyond just listening!!! With approximately seven times the storage capacity of CDs and data-loss-free reproduction of (192 kHz/24-bit) 2-channel stereo or (96 kHz/24-bit) 5.1-channel surround sound recreated music with such never before detail and clarity. I have heard many DVD-Audio discs and they provide ultra-high performance stereo sound as well as 5.1 channel sound that realistically capture the acoustics of the finest music on the market.

SUPER AUDIO CD (SACD)

Starting a revolution in 2000 the way music is digitally recorded and played back, Super Audio CD (SACD) incorporated Direct Stream Digital (DSD) technology for a frequency response of over 100 kHz, dynamic range over 120 dB and a sampling rate of 2.822 MHz, thats 64 times that of a regular CD!!! A SACD disc provided stereo and up to 5.1 channels of high resolution multichannel audio. Personally having heard just a few SACD albums, I was revealed by the depth of its soundstage in multi channel mode. Alas it never was as popular as CDs.

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The Birth of Ubers

Clearly high resolution stereo and 5.1 channel surround sounds from DVD-A and SACD have enhanced the realism of listening to music at home. And it was only with the birth of these super high quality digital audio formats the Ubers were born with the objective to revel this elated stereo/ multi-channel realism to their owners. Even though early Ubers like Denon AVC-A1SE (US $3,800) released in 2000 boasted SPDIF/Toslink and Co-axial digital inputs, capable in handling upto 192 kHz/24-bit resolutions for stereo, due to lack of copyright protection schemes only analog multi-channel outputs were allowed for both stereo or 5.1 channel music from DVD-A and SACD players. So their owners had to use analogue cables (up to six of them no less) as the only means of transport from players to AV amplifiers. Also the above mentioned digital connections did not had the necessary bandwidth to carry super high fidelity 5.1 channel surround sound of 96 kHz/24-bit resolutions.

Some of the fine details were definitely lost in this D/A conversion and subsequent analogue transfer from the player to the amplifier, where possibly an additional A/D conversion were performed for extended digital signal processing. To counter this performance deficit Group-A Ubers used extremely high quality ADCs and DACs in exotic configuration schemes, but just as a broken leg carefully operated with absolute surgical precision can never regain the same strength of an unbroken one the same analogy applied with unnecessary A/D and D/A conversions in multi-channel mode. Still I admit after hearing several multi-channel DVD-A & SACD discs through the analog multi-channel inputs of Denon AVC-A1SRA & Yamaha DSP-Z9 revealed extremely high degree of precision as far as sound quality were concerned.

With the potential of DVD-A and SACD sound being limited to analogue only connections, it was soon realized by industry leaders a new method of digital audio transmission was desperately required for these sophisticated stereo/multi-channel recordings with quality of sound never realized before. With HDMI seeming a futile solution (even HDMI 1.0 were commercially viable by early 2004 which neither had support for DVD-A and SACD) and Group-A Ubers up on the design boards as early as 2000, some other solution was immediately looked upon.

Sometime ago in early 1990s a very lucrative high speed and bi-directional digital interface named IEEE1394 was developed by Apple and was considered as an alternative to common USB connection. They called it Firewire. This digital interface was further refined by Sony renaming as i.LINK which used a smaller connector with only four signal conductors. These i.LINK connectors/ ports were sometimes labeled S100 or S400 to indicate transfer speed in Mbit/s. Benchmarks showed quite positive results with sustained data transfer rates being higher for i.LINK than USB2. Thus this new lucrative digital connection was reeled in by AV manufacturers and was widely used in Group-A Uber AV amplifiers to transfer the highest quality stereo/ multi-channel audio from SACD and DVD-A discs players as well as Dolby Digital and DTS formats. Only digital audio signals were supported via i.LINK be it mono, stereo or multi-channel offering full digital copyright protection.

4-Pin i.Link Cable(S400)

Using this ultra-highspeed i.LINK (S400) connectivity, transfer rate climbed to 400 Mbps between player and AVR for digital audio signals, all in the digital domain which broadened multi-channel experience while at the same time simplifying it. One wire was able to transmit high-resolution multi-channel music in the digital rather than the previous analog domain to provide the DVD-A and SACD experience that audiophiles were waiting for. Even better, content now stayed in pure digital realm as there are no unnecessary D/A and A/D conversions performed. i.LINK very quickly became a welcome connectivity for audiophiles who wanted to experience the sublime sound quality that has made these Ubers the AV amplifiers they were dreaming for.

Yamaha DSP-Z9 i.Link(S400) Connection

Top AV amplifier manufacturers like Denon, Sony, Pioneer, Onkyo, Marantz and Yamaha made sure their Uber AV amplifiers of Group-A category sporting i.LINK digital connection did justice to this unheard sound quality of DVD-A and SACD discs. Video was always secondary aspect here.

Some of the most iconic Uber AV amplifiers of Group-A category featuring i.LINK:

1) Denon AVC-A1SRA
2) Denon AVC-A1XVA
3) Marantz SR9600
4) Onkyo TX-NR1000
5) Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S
6) Sony TA-DA9000ES
7) Yamaha DSP-Z9

Denon AVC-A1SRA

Denon AVC-A1XVA

Marantz SR9600

Onkyo TX-NR1000

Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S

Sony TA-DA9000ES

Yamaha DSP-Z9

Exceptional casing quality of DSP-Z9

Some of the notable features of Group-A Ubers:

1) Exceptional casing quality which simply looked gorgeous and had the feeling of high end separate audio components. Nothing that was seen before or followed after in AVR category. Available in striking brushed Titanium, Silver and Gold treatments though plain Black was also available.

2) Terrific built quality. Evolution of build quality truly peaked with these Ubers featuring an anti-resonant, heavy-gauge, reinforced-steel chassis combined with rigid aluminum front, top and side panels to provide greater strength and maximize vibration damping. All these do more than provide long term elegance they enhance overall rigidity to dampen unwelcome resonations. Spending a minimum of US $4,200 back in 2002 to get into this elite group of i.LINK equipped Ubers one got rewarded with a product that was built like a Panzer tank and runs like a Swiss watch.

3) Use of selected high quality electronic components to reproduce super-high fidelity sound from DVD-A and SACD sound sources. High end pre-amp designs were implemented where digital signal paths like i.LINK, TosLink and Co-axial got utmost attention. TOTL BurrBrown DACs (192 kHz/24-bit) were used in exotic quad dual differential setup to preserve the enormous dynamic range and pure clarity of these digital recordings. Analog signal paths were not left behind as they got equal exotic treatment for analog lovers with Pure Direct signal paths bypassing any processing while pre-amp phono sections rivaled high end stereo integrateds of their time.

4) Group-A Ubers contained full 7.1 channel analog inputs for its seven equally powered onboard amplifiers. Considering the sufficient transparency to preserve the enormous dynamic range and pure clarity of digital recordings on DVD-A and SACD to be played via these multi-channel analog inputs other than i.LINK, the manufacturers aimed for 110 dB S/N ratio to faithfully reproduce the latest wide range audio formats. Elaborate and exotic design schemes were followed with use of highly accurate 192 kHz/24-bit ADCs converters on all eight channels individually to precisely reproduce DVD-A and SACD sound sources when using players through this multi-channel inputs. For two-channel analogue sources, four ADCs were used for each channel for further precise conversion. This ensures truly superb 2-channel analog stereo reproduction. Of course, bypassing all A/D, DSP and subsequent D/A conversion by directly routing the analogue input to the power amplifier by Pure Direct path was equally possible.

5) Most potent power amp sections ever to adorn AV amplifiers/ AVRs of any particular brand. Huge toroidal transformers were common in their power supply sections providing incredible power output, capable of powering any speaker on the market with juice to spare making these a very versatile amplifier for a variety of system and needs. All had the power and headroom to be able to drive even tough impedance-load speakers to beyond-cinema levels, even from the most demanding sources like DVD-A and SACD. THX's Ultra2 certification was mandatory and backed those claims up with third-party verification that one can trust.

6) Most elaborate analog/ digital connectivity schemes at the back panel of these AVRs. Common say was If they dont have it, you dont need it. Analog/ digital connectivity be it for audio or video were all gold plated. Special attention was provided to the unexpectedly large gold plated 2-way extruded speaker terminals to deliver the power with minimum noise and distortion.

7) Video signals were mostly limited to composite, S-Video & component video inputs/outputs without any up-conversion. For early Ubers elaborate schemes were laid down for proper video switching capabilities and support for HDTV quality 720p/1080i @ 200MHz via component outs. Ubers of 2004 like DSP-Z9 went on to a new high with a new trend of adding video up-scaling capabilities of any 420i or 576i videos to 720p/1080i through component outs. Mind you it was only in 2004 that HDMI released the 1.1 version to support DVD-A and the subsequent year HDMI 1.2 to support SACD. So it was not until early 2006 that HDMI 1.2 ready players were available supporting both DVD-A and SACD. This trend was quickly followed by Onkyo TX-NR1000 released in 2005 sporting HDMI 1.0 connections for the first time in Uber category while supporting only 720p/1080i video up-scaling with no audio. Denon followed with its mighty US $6,000 AVC-A1XVA released in 2006 having HDMI 1.1 connections and for the first time full support for TrueHD 1080p up-scaling.

8) These Ubers had no support for HDMI 1.3, hence had no inbuilt decoders for native Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio formats from BD discs. Only 5.1 channel LPCM audio was accepted via HDMI 1.1 of AVC-A1XVA, thus today 7.1 channel analog inputs of Group-A Ubers remains the only source for pre-decoded HD audio from BD players. For SACD and DVD-A multi-channel audio formats i.LINK was primarily used, Denon adding its propriety Denon Link.

9) Extremely heavy due to huge power supply and power amp sections. The extremely well built chassis and casing also added formidable weight to these Ubers. Units hovered around 30 to 35 kilos in weight climbing to 44 kilos with Denon AVC-A1XVA.

The HD Era

In 2006, HDMI 1.3 arrived. A single cable of digital connectivity to pass ultra-high quality audio as well as video with support for all other important audio formats know to man. With release of HDMI 1.3 version players in late 2006 having support for 1080p video with TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio as well as DVD-A and SACD format, it quickly became the de-facto connectivity standard for AV industry and i.LINK which was considered the future of digital multi-channel audio connectivity was left redundant. The top manufacturers more than welcomed this change and thus Group-B Ubers were born.

Some of the most iconic Uber AV amplifiers of Group-B category featuring HDMI 1.3a:

1) Denon AVC-A1HDA
2) Pioneer SC-LX90
3) Yamaha DSP-Z11

Denon AVC-A1HDA

Pioneer SC-LX90

Yamaha DSP-Z11

Some of the notable features of Group-B Ubers:

1) HDMI connectivity was the talk of the town and rightfully given prime importance. Being a relatively new technology it was rave in 2007 while manufacturers had their new Group-B Ubers as the new base with extremely high budget allotted for development.

2) As Ubers they retained the exceptional casing & chassis quality with terrific built quality as found in Group-A. With the rising inflation rate this time one has to spend a minimum of US $5,200 in 2007 (a rise of US $1,000 in 5 years time) to get into this elite club of HDMI 1.3 equipped Ubers.

3) Use of selected high quality electronic components to produce super-high fidelity sound of TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio as well as 1080p TrueHD video with up-scaling capability. Audio pre-amp bore good quality designs but were not as exotic as Group-A Ubers. Pure analog and pre-amp phono sections were not as good as their predecessors but still delivered formidable sound quality. With the inclusion of HDMI boards (prohibitively costly in 2007) having already swelled the final asking price, I believe it was better decided not to follow the exotic pre-amp design schemes of their predecessors which would have definitely lead them to even higher hardware cost finally crossing the price margin set by their respective marketing divisions.

4) Less potent power amp sections than Group-A with much higher distortion levels. Power amp output stages got smaller, power supply sections started shrinking where as number of audio channels went on increasing. Toroidal transformers were replaced by E-I core transformers to save cost with lower power rating. Take the prime example of DSP-Z9 to DSP-Z11 transition. Rather the money saved here was rightfully put in new feature sets mentioned below. Still they had great power output to coup THX Ultra2 certification but simply couldnt match their predecessors where audio quality and dynamic headroom were concerned be it stereo or multi-channel.

5) Analog/ digital connections were less elaborate than Group-A, as HDMI took over and provided all in one solution. Lets face it, HDMI was a revolution and Group-B wins hands down as far as HT connectivity were concerned. For multi-channel music lovers like me, Group-A will remain the favorite due to better sound quality with much higher dynamic headroom. Here too analog/ digital connectivity be it for audio or video were all gold plated. Special attention was provided to the gold plated speaker terminals to deliver the power with minimum noise and distortion.

6) Video signals and its proper up-conversion were given prime importance rather than internal audio amplifier performance as TrueHD 1080p was the talk of the town. Elaborate schemes were laid down for proper up-conversion and video switching capabilities reaching an altogether high. These Ubers simply up-converted any resolution to 1080p and showed a clean pair of heels to their Group-A predecessors.

7) With the AV segment continuously evolving special attention were provided for proper network connectivity via LAN and seamless integration with PC, iPod and others. The inclusion of USB ports for direct MP3, WMA playback and WiFi connectivity became vital selling points. Some Ubers like US $7,000 Pioneer SC-LX90 completely ditched front panel dot-matrix displays for costly LCD ones.

8) Generally weighed less than Group-A "Ubers" due to shrinking internal amplifiers and power supply sections. Say the Group-A Denon AVC-A1XVA while weighing 44 kilos its Group-B successor Denon AVC-A1HDA weighed just 29 kilos in comparison.

Standing in 2013, a sensible buyer should always go for Group-B Ubers as they provide the best of both worlds. Admitted they do not satisfy the current rave of 3D signal pass through via HDMI, rest assured they still do have the best balance between yesteryears sound quality and current required feature set. Its only when one is after best sound quality and dynamic headroom should one look up to Group-A Ubers. With high end BD players having properly decoded multi-channel analog outputs these Groups-As will swallow the Group-Bs alive as far as TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio is concerned. And I say this after watching some of the most special effect filled movies like Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen where the Yamaha DSP-Z9 and Denon AVC-A1SRA with their 7.1 channel analog inputs not only matched the resolution and detailing of Yamaha DSP-Z11 over HDMI 1.3a but created a much bigger soundstage with more slam!!!

 

[Silverchroma]

Thank you so much Rishi-san! This is the most informative, helpful, and amazingly detailed post for AVRs I have ever seen. ??????????

I notice that the build quality of a lot of these went down as they started outsourcing. Some of the later AVR's in the Group B category started outsourcing to Malaysia (where most of the higher end AVRs are made) but this trend really started after most of the AVR's highest end ones were built. Nowadays you get even the mid-range or lower range made in Malaysia and really low range made in China.

I wanted to ask why you didn't mention some AVR's in your post. I have an Integra 9.1 U2 (This was the TOTL Flagship model at the time, also THX Ultra2 Certified with many of the same features as the other). I don't see much difference between the DS-989 and the Integra 9.1. The price was only $200 more when new ($3200 vs. $3000). There are a few things I don't like about it: The back and casing looks cheap, not as rich or refined looking as some of the competition... The mutichannel input is through a DB25 connector (this is strange, will this have a negative effect on sound quality? The good quality adapters have to be custom made and are expensive... but it's neater and takes less space).

Anyway, I was debating whether to keep the Integra 9.1 U2 (or the Denon 3805 I am using) or to sell and buy something else. I want the best SQ possible. I am running KEF Reference Model Ones, KEF 100C and KEF Q10s for my surrounds. These are 4 ohm speakers. I will be replacing them with ADS L1090s/L1290s for fronts, L300 or L400 for rears, and probably a custom built front. I love the sound of ADS and for me they blow away these KEF Reference speakers... However, they are quite hard to drive and sound too bright with most AV Receivers. So I wanted your opinion on what is the best to get. Here are my choices and worries:

1. Pioneer Elite 47tx/49txi (These two are excellent and I LOVE the design. The casing looks the richest and I have a Pioneer BDP-51FD as my Blu-Ray which will fit really well as they both have a glossy shine. I am only worried about the 50MHZ component video Switching) 59txi (This would be ideal but harder to find than the other two, this has 100mhz switching? I also heard that this model allows for bi-amping through the zone 2 channels. Is this the case for any of the other models I listed?)

2. Denon 5800/5803 (These also have only 50mhz switching) 5805 (Too expensive for me to afford to buy used or trade in for my Integra 9.1).

3. Denon 4802R or 4806 (Maybe these are viable options, they are also Made in Japan and high quality, although under the flagships).

4. Yamaha Z1 (I can't afford the Z9). I have heard that the Yamaha is way too bright, but it has the best looks as you say, next to the Pioneer.

I have a Loewe Aconda CRT HDTV which is 1080i via component. I think it shows better than most modern Plasma or LEDs I have ever seen. No plasma or LED can have the contrast, black levels, etc... of a CRT. It just looks so luscious and pure. Anyway, will 50mhz be enough for the switching as many of the UBER's only have 50mhz or do I need 100mhz to get 1080i full resolution?

The iLink is important for me for two reasons: 1. I will be using the analog inputs for the blu-ray and can't switch. 2. I am planning on buying a multiplayer that can do SACD and DVD-Audio such as the Onkyo DVSP1000 or something similar if you have suggestions.

Let me know what you think.

?????????????????????
????

P.S. Your pictures made me drool. It's like AVR porn! Is that a Hi-Vision player I saw with your Yamaha Z9 in an earlier posting? If I was a millionaire I would buy a Hi-Vision player (with as many discs as I can find) with transcoder and feed it to my Loewe Aconda. I would get full analog HD all the way through component... Maybe one day...

 

[ghatgepatil]

Very very informative write-up, Rishiguru.
I see you own the Yamaha. Would love to hear them if ever I drop by your city. Would you be kind enough to upload your amp-speaker pic in here, in case you have it handy.

 

[rishiguru]

Thank you so much Rishi-san! This is the most informative, helpful, and amazingly detailed post for AVRs I have ever seen.

Thanks for the appreciation Silverchroma. Though I write for pure fun, time permitting, it is always good to know my write-ups are of some help to others.

I notice that the build quality of a lot of these went down as they started outsourcing. Some of the later AVR's in the Group B category started outsourcing to Malaysia (where most of the higher end AVRs are made) but this trend really started after most of the AVR's highest end ones were built. Nowadays you get even the mid-range or lower range made in Malaysia and really low range made in China.

All AV amplifier manufactures mentioned in my above post belongs to Japan. Thus all their Ubers were designed, manufactured, tested and shipped from Japan. This holds particularly true for Group-A Ubers which had the highest degree of product quality ever seen in these category, some Group-B Ubers may have Malaysia made components. I dont know.

I wanted to ask why you didn't mention some AVR's in your post.

Pardon me, as an Indian I write relative to Indian context. Our mains are 230 volts, 50 Hz which follows that of United Kingdom. Europe in general have AV amplifiers (devoid of internal tuner) but are available in stunningly beautiful titanium, silver and golden casing finishes whereas United States always get the all black AV receivers (AVR). Here is a list for you help:

Group-A category featuring i.LINK:

AV amplifier (Europe) / AV receiver (USA)
1) Denon AVC-A1SRA/ Denon AVR-5803A
2) Denon AVC-A1XVA/ Denon AVR-5805CI
3) Marantz SR9600 / Identical
4) Onkyo TX-NR1000/ Integra DTR-10.5
5) Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S/ Pioneer VSX-59TXi
6) Sony TA-DA9000ES/ Sony STR-DA9000ES
7) Yamaha DSP-Z9/ Yamaha RX-Z9

Group-B category featuring HDMI 1.3a:

AV amplifier (Europe) / AV receiver (USA)
1) Denon AVC-A1HDA/ Denon AVR-5308CI
2) Pioneer SC-LX90/ Pioneer SC-09TX
3) Yamaha DSP-Z11/ Yamaha RX-Z11

Hope it helps!!!

I have an Integra 9.1 U2 (This was the TOTL Flagship model at the time, also THX Ultra2 Certified with many of the same features as the other). I don't see much difference between the DS-989 and the Integra 9.1. The price was only $200 more when new ($3200 vs. $3000). There are a few things I don't like about it: The back and casing looks cheap, not as rich or refined looking as some of the competition... The mutichannel input is through a DB25 connector (this is strange, will this have a negative effect on sound quality? The good quality adapters have to be custom made and are expensive... but it's neater and takes less space).

Integra is a sub division of Onkyo and represents their Elite models. Integra models are identical to Onkyo ones, difference being a slight higher quality casing and a longer warranty. SQ wise many have compared their identical models and found to be dead identical. Hence identical Integra models are slightly pricier than Onkyo which in your case is US $200.

Your TOTL Integra DTR-9.1 (U2) is based on a historically invaluable AVR named Onkyo TX-DS989. When released in 2000 it immediately won the coveted EISA award for best home theater amplifier (Link: EISA Awards). This THX Ultra certified receiver became the worlds first AVR to support 7.1 channel analog inputs for its identically powered seven onboard amplifiers and also had THX Surround EX which created a truly immersive experience with effects steered behind the listener.

Since then it received two upgrades for Onkyo TX-DS989/ Integra DTR-9.1. The first one available in 2001 added DTS-ES as well as Dolby Pro Logic II and had no official name like Ver1 or U1. The second upgrade available in 2002 mostly comprised of the THX Ultra 2 classification, Dolby Digital EX as well as DTS 96/24 and had an official name like Ver2 or U2.

Onkyo TX-DS989 (Ver2)

Being the first AVR to ever support 7.1 channel inputs, with no industry standard for inputs yet set, Onkyo choose the back panel space saving DB25 connector which unfortunately never caught up with other manufactures, as they started using eight independent RCA analog jacks. Subsequently in later models of Onkyo/ Integra the DB25 connector was ditched. However I am pretty certain the DB25 connector will have no negative impact on SQ provided you have a quality adaptor.

Onkyo TX-DS989 (Ver2) Internals

To me a TOTL Onkyo TX-DS989 (Ver2) aka Integra DTR-9.1 (U2) released in 2002 carries much weight (apart from its 130W X 7 power output and 22 kilo heft) than say a TOTL Yamaha DSP-AZ1/ RX-Z1 of similar time frame. It simply a standing piece of history.

Anyway, I was debating whether to keep the Integra 9.1 U2 (or the Denon 3805 I am using) or to sell and buy something else. I want the best SQ possible.

With this Integra you are already at a high level in terms of SQ. Its only 10 years old and if you do have a proper DB25 adaptor then its a keeper. Only Group-A Ubers will take you on a higher level in terms of SQ and product quality.

Integra DTR-9.1 (U2)

I love the sound of ADS and for me they blow away these KEF Reference speakers... However, they are quite hard to drive and sound too bright with most AV Receivers. So I wanted your opinion on what is the best to get. Here are my choices and worries:

1. Pioneer Elite 47tx/49txi (These two are excellent and I LOVE the design. The casing looks the richest and I have a Pioneer BDP-51FD as my Blu-Ray which will fit really well as they both have a glossy shine. I am only worried about the 50MHZ component video Switching) 59txi (This would be ideal but harder to find than the other two, this has 100mhz switching? I also heard that this model allows for bi-amping through the zone 2 channels. Is this the case for any of the other models I listed?)

2. Denon 5800/5803 (These also have only 50mhz switching) 5805 (Too expensive for me to afford to buy used or trade in for my Integra 9.1).

3. Denon 4802R or 4806 (Maybe these are viable options, they are also Made in Japan and high quality, although under the flagships).

4. Yamaha Z1 (I can't afford the Z9). I have heard that the Yamaha is way too bright, but it has the best looks as you say, next to the Pioneer.

1) The Pioneer VSX-49TXi and its iteration VSX-59TXi are said to be on the bright side though resolution and clarity were said to be the best in Group-A Uber class. This is affirmed by another member in this thread a few posts above. They are jewel of an Uber receiver though you should always vouch for i models like VSX-49TXi or VSX-59TXi as they featured i.LINK. The best of the lineup is 59TXi and should be your preferred choice as it is the only one which is HDTV compatible (720p/1080i) via component video outs @ 100 MHz with no up-scaling capability. As for bi-amping other than 59Txi the Denon AVR-5805CI and Onkyo TX-NR1000 have inbuilt support.

2) The Denon AVR-5803 and its iteration AVR-5803A Group-A Ubers are HDTV compatible (720p/1080i) via component video outs @ 100 MHz with no up-scaling capability. Have more power and dynamic headroom per channel and in being less bright than Pioneers. Mind you these models only had support for Denon Link which means you are restricted in using only Denon SACD/ DVD-A players. Later models featured i.LINK. SQ wise will put many US $1500 integrateds to shame. Here is how to bi-amp AVR-5803: Link: Denon AVR-5803 Bi-amping

3) No idea regarding these models.

4) Do not find any reason to downgrade to a cheaper Yamaha DSP-AZ1/ RX-Z1 when you have the Integra DTR-9.1 (U2). I have only read reviews and they are said to be musical and bright sounding. The RX-Z1 will also be incompatible with 7.1 channel analog out of BD players as it accepts only 5.1 channels. Also it does with only six identically powered channels while rest two are front presence with much lower power output. A complete NO from my side. From your post I get that you want the DSP-Z9/ RX-Z9 but is unfortunately out of your current budget.

I have a Loewe Aconda CRT HDTV which is 1080i via component. I think it shows better than most modern Plasma or LEDs I have ever seen. No plasma or LED can have the contrast, black levels, etc... of a CRT. It just looks so luscious and pure. Anyway, will 50mhz be enough for the switching as many of the UBER's only have 50mhz or do I need 100mhz to get 1080i full resolution?

There is a common belief that a video switching device should have a minimum bandwidth of 3x greater than the signal being dealt with. It's my understanding 720p requires the highest bandwidth of 37 MHz, so Ubers supporting 100 MHz are better choices. A 50 MHz bandwidth implies the signal is 3 dB down at that frequency. Hence, it will be fine for standard DVD or 480p output. Denon AVR-5803A, Denon AVR-5805CI, Pioneer VSX-59TXi and Yamaha RX-Z9 (with video up-scaling to 720p/1080i) all supports 100 MHz via components out. I have also found many who are happy @ 40MHz signals. What are your impressions of using Integra (having @ 40MHz) with your HTDV? If positive then the other Ubers supporting 40 MHz will do for you.

The iLink is important for me for two reasons:
1. I will be using the analog inputs for the blu-ray and can't switch.
2. I am planning on buying a multiplayer that can do SACD and DVD-Audio such as the Onkyo DVSP1000 or something similar if you have suggestions.
Let me know what you think.

Spot on.

P.S. Your pictures made me drool. It's like AVR porn! Is that a Hi-Vision player I saw with your Yamaha Z9 in an earlier posting? If I was a millionaire I would buy a Hi-Vision player (with as many discs as I can find) with transcoder and feed it to my Loewe Aconda. I would get full analog HD all the way through component... Maybe one day...

I dont know if you seen these Uber AV amplifiers in flesh with titanium, gold and silver finishing like I have, they have the ability to steal your dream with their beautiful and majestic looks and the awesome quality it exudes just standing still. I have not even talked about their performance. They have this high end feel which unfortunately are completely lacking in current TOTL AVRs which feels more like AV gadgets.

 

[rpugalia]

Yesterday purchased one pre owned Yamaha dsp z9 through a common friend.
The owner has upgraded to some exotic pre - power combo. Got it for a song.

rajneesh

 

[anm]

rishi - thanks for the detailed writeup. I will take lot of time to read it up. However, it still baffles me as to why the analog sections of Z9/ Z11 can not be used as a base. Only thing that is changing is HDMI specs to some extend, and networking feature, which should be just another digital card level changes. Rest of the AVR should essentially remain same. In case of NAD, they have a modular architecture for such things. Even if one doesn't have modular approach at user replaceable card level, the internal design must be following a modular approach.

Anyways, if there is a good condition z9 or z11 available for a song, I would be interested.

 

[ynotbubba]

@rishiguru

Great writeup. One on the best I have ever seen, portraying the developments of the avr industry for the last two or three decades. I have owned a lot of them and as you say i am thinking to write a line or two regarding my avrs you have been asking for. Great news yamaha is into separates though after auditioning the marantz combo i an not expecting much. I do not understand what's the use of 11 channels in their separates. It would have been better if they have used the z9 base for power amp and some new pre. Better still I wish they could have made a real successor of z9 with all the latest connections.

 

[buswal]

Hi,

After reading the detailed report, I am tempted to hunt for one of these monster AVRs. Any FM is planning to dispose of any of the above mentioned models, pl. pm.

cheers,

 

[rpugalia]

For all those who want a yamaha z9.


Yamahaha 9.1 channel Amplifier DSP-Z9 in Adyar, Chennai Used Music Systems - Home Theatre on Chennai Quikr Classifieds

 

[ynotbubba]

I got involved in this quest for audio quite long, there have been days I was proud owner of pioneer and hitachi stereo receivers. Since this thread is more related to multi-channel avrs whom the OP states as ubers, I will limit my experience to these last of the Mohicans I owned.

Denon 5800: One of the best sounding receivers of its time, it entered market like a storm. I was there on dealers showroom for some good stereo amps for my newly purchased b&ws and was introduced. At those times I was purely into av separates having little adventure with a Yamaha a3090. The A3090 was great for HT, sound was quite good for its price, unfortunately SQ wise as expected nowhere near to my lexicons separates. In contrast to the Yamaha the denon had much more dynamic headroom with an easygoing, self-confident sound that, though arguably lacking the nth degree of high-frequency transparency, was never inappropriately edgy or aggressive. I started liking the smooth sound and bought it. Apart audio it was so much better than my lexicons in the video side, though limited to switching only, it performed flawlessly. After owning the z9 the denon had to go, but it served me well. A truly excellent product from denon.

Pioneer 59txi: I cannot quantify whether 59txi was better than the 5800 other than to say denon was louder while the pioneer was brighter. I admit to grasp the pioneer over 5800 any day though. Certified by air studios, this avr was more focused on clarity with more detailed and resolved sound exposing the intricate detailing of delicate soundtracks which defied my conception of avrs being merely a switching device with minuscule power. It raised the bar single handedly which left me thinking the use of separates other than outright power. After first few hours I was stunned..Yes it was that good SQ wise. One point to add is the imminently recognizable clarity may become a little fatiguing in my ears on long runs. If memory serves me right it was either sony or pioneer who introduced the ilink digital connectivity in avrs so while using the latest pioneer sacd/dvda players the 59txi went to another realm, bass became more taught, highs became more airy. If music is what you want while lacking the budget to gun for separates, this receiver was the best bet. Movies were good but not sounded as good as denon.

Yamaha Z9: The z9 was a true revelation. I was so elated with its performance; I sold my Lexicons within few months. Lexicons for sure had more driving power but I was in ruthless trimming mood. Comparing sound signatures it was neither smooth like denon or as sharp as pioneer and be best described as neutral to bright sounding. Its defining characteristics are terrific transparency, incisive dynamics, deeply extended bass that offers excellent pitch definition and superb three-dimensionality. From very onset it was equally balanced for both music and movies. SQ wise it offered every flavor an audiophool (a later realization after being a self proclaimed audiophile) like me will ever want. Z9s breakthrough pre amplifier design hidden in separate chambers in the chassis to counter electromagnetic interference, a true hifi philosophy, offered unheard neutrality, resolution and musicality in avr category which led many of my friends (including me) use it as a dedicated AV processor powered by separate monoblocks. Whats more, the preamps contained better than entry level phonostage offering surprising textural finesse, giving HT users a warm welcome to the world of analog. Later on I found its internal amp to be powerful enough for my loudspeakers as it effortlessly pulled my seven 804s. Till now I have not spoken about its video upscaling prowess which was tour-de-force among avrs, my HDTV offered never before seen clear and pristine upscaled videos from VHS tapes. Lastly I must add Z9 has the best built-in headphone amp I've heard. One fine day I was just listening to my headphones on the Z9 and was pleasantly surprised it was more than just an afterthought. I have listened to many preamps/amps/receivers using the internal headphone amps over the years, and have always observed a limitation in terms of distortion at reasonably high listening levels. With Z9 the sound doesn't become unlistenable and grainy when pushed, there's just more presence. Bottom line, I find Z9 to be the best receiver in last two decades.

Lexicon RV8: I admit to be a Lexicon fan from the very beginning and had to bring this up as rishiguru missed it. I had their separates, touted them to be better than others (even mcintosh) and when they finally made an avr, I immediately grabbed it. Naturally due to hi end brand credibility it initially retailed at seven grand (2.5 grand more than z9), was most expensive receiver in the market. SQ wise it almost had the magical ability to create something like the audio equivalent of persistence of vision with clarity, transparency, liquid mids and highs, and an ability to render dynamic contrasts second only to that of the z9. In short a shade better than z9 in having a slightly forward-sounding midrange with equal grunt. Apart for sound quality it did not even contain half the functionality/feature set of z9. No ilink was a real bummer. Released a few months later than z9 it only supported 5.1 channel inputs for its 7 internal amps which was frankly absurd for a receiver of this class & price. With two successive internal amp failures I finally admitted z9 had better build quality than lexicon (very hard for me to digest) while offering ton more usable functionalities. I sold it on an impulse to have a denon 5805, it still shares my memory with its beautiful tonal balance, wonderful soundstaging, and high resolution. In terms of SQ what set RV8 and Z9 apart from the rest are their astonishing dynamic coherence, with a bass response that was both controlled and detailed and utterly effortless reproduction of the most demanding bottom-end transients unheard in the receiver market. I still regret selling the RV8.

Denon 5805: Bought this thinking an upgrade from z9 & rv8 and right out of the box, the first thing I noticed was how the Denon was not as richly voiced in the upper bass and lower mids as the Z9, which is not to say that 5805 didn't have excellent drive or offer bass slam. 5805's portrayals of inner detail and transients were quite good as was its localization of images, it seemed a touch dry-sounding compared to Z9 in terms of a more elusive quality: tone. On its side was a real multi room capability with two full 5.1 channel zones, inbuilt 10 channels of amplification. I used to power my other two rooms but it never caught up on me. It was said to be denons hurried response to Yamahas z9, which was at its helm at those times. Retailing at 1.5 grand more, looked big enough to walk around on its own, gargantuan in my eyes, and got many scathing remarks in respected forums to copy almost all components from z9. It used the z9s DACs, ADCs, the video scalers, and many more. Other than multi-room capabilities the z9 was just better in almost every regard. It also had hdmi, but supported the same resolution of z9 as I was not in the mood to change my beloved HDTV.

Yamaha z11: The first of its kind to offer hdmi 1.3 with inbuilt hd audo decoders and was an anticipated model from my part as a replacement for z9. Never fructified to anything close to z9 thus sold within few weeks. Sound was good, video was great, but after you hear a z9 or rv8 it simply does not come close. The most offending part was the inability to drive my seven 807d, I was not going to follow the separate monoblock route again after moving to my new smaller house, thus refrained. SQ wise never close to z9, sounded undue bright and the pre-amp phono section was a total sucker.

Denon 5308: After the z11 I had this for a week and then sold it. Perhaps the z11 and 5308 was the end markers for me to no more continue my quest for top avrs. The z11 being quite complex to operate, the 5308 was a revelation. On screen menus where more logically laid out, video part was better than z11 while sounding quite constricted and undue bright at higher volume levels. The z9, rv8 and 59txi had so much in reserve their tonality remained unchanged as you pump up the volume, not so with z11 and 5308.

I had to mention about this relatively unkown avr below, though it does not fall in the class mentioned above:

JVC DP20: The most underestimated receiver of its generation, it had so much to offer while being ignored due to lack of snob value. On the day I went to buy the Yamaha z9, a friend of fine being a relative newcomer to the world of music and HT asked a favor to buy cheap receiver for him as starter. As I shelled 4.5 grand for my z9 I saw this jvc branded dp20 selling for mere 850 dollars brand new. They had an initial retail price of 2.5 grand but due to the lack of hi end brand image the re-sellers was selling them cheap. My friend being out stationed for over three month due to shipping business, I had enough time to spend a do direct comparison with z9 and 59 txi. Lacking the hi-class WOW effect of Z9 it was enough sound wise to put smile across my face. Its defining characteristics are an unfailing smoothness through the midrange and on up through the upper midrange, a gentle touch of warmth with high-frequency transients cymbals, vocal sibilants just where you'd want them: naturally smooth, yet exceptionally detailed and convincingly non-mechanical. However, relative to z9, the DP20 comes up a little short in terms of high-frequency transparency, more of a seethrough sound and in terms of midbass punch. It had separate 5.1 and 7.1 channel inputs though lacking ilink. It had bass and distance management system that operated flawlessly and I was awed at how much this avr provided for its mere asking price. If I had to describe dp20 in short it will be like having the sound signature of denon while having the grunt of 59txi and in having a little limited feature set of lexicon rv8. In the end I gave it ten out of ten in terms of SQ, power and features relative to its asking price. No other avr can get that good relative to price other than z9.

 

[Silverchroma]

Thanks for the appreciation Silverchroma. Though I write for pure fun, time permitting, it is always good to know my write-ups are of some help to others.

Apologies for the late reply. Yes very useful! thank you!:clapping:

All AV amplifier manufactures mentioned in my above post belongs to Japan. Thus all their Ubers were designed, manufactured, tested and shipped from Japan. This holds particularly true for Group-A Ubers which had the highest degree of product quality ever seen in these category, some Group-B Ubers may have Malaysia made components. I dont know.

Yes unfortunately this is the case now. For example the Z11 was made in Malaysia and many people didn't find it as good as the Japan made Z9. I feel like they didn't only save costs on the component quality, but also the build quality and of course outsourcing makes them cheaper to manufacture but not as good.

Europe in general have AV amplifiers (devoid of internal tuner) but are available in stunningly beautiful titanium, silver and golden casing finishes whereas United States always get the all black AV receivers (AVR). Here is a list for you help:

Thank you this definitely helps. I guess they like things plain in the states ;-). What about the Yamaha Z7 you mentioned earlier, was that a Europe Only model?

With this Integra you are already at a high level in terms of SQ. Its only 10 years old and if you do have a proper DB25 adaptor then its a keeper. Only Group-A Ubers will take you on a higher level in terms of SQ and product quality. 4) Do not find any reason to downgrade to a cheaper Yamaha DSP-AZ1/ RX-Z1 when you have the Integra DTR-9.1 (U2). I have only read reviews and they are said to be musical and bright sounding. The RX-Z1 will also be incompatible with 7.1 channel analog out of BD players as it accepts only 5.1 channels. Also it does with only six identically powered channels while rest two are front presence with much lower power output. A complete NO from my side. From your post I get that you want the DSP-Z9/ RX-Z9 but is unfortunately out of your current budget.

I don't have the adaptor yet, and the cheapest good quality ones are around $75... This and the low 50MHZ component video switching is why I am considering upgrading. The reason I was thinking of the Z1 is for: 100MHZ Component Video Switching, Better more "sleek" looks, and analogue inputs (I only use 5.1 so don't need 7.1)... However the Integra 9.1U2 retailed for $3200 and seems higher end, so maybe I should buy the adapter and use my component video switching box separately which has 230mhz bandwidth. I just prefer everything to go through the receiver.

I bought my 9.1U2 on a whim for $200 (without the remote or the DB25 cable) which I thought was a good deal, but now I will have to pay another $75 for the cable and maybe $75 or $100 for the remote.

On eBay I find the Pioneer 59txi often for about $400 with the remote and special microphone for setting the volume. I think aesthetically the 59txi matches the lacquered finish on my Loewe Aconda and my Pioneer BDP-51FD Blu-Ray. I think my second choice would be the Onkyo TX-NR1000 (Usually sells for $600) OR the Sony DA9000ES (Did they make them in Black or only Silver Usually sells for $800 used)? The Marantz is the least favourite for me as far as looks and still go for $600-$900 used. Finally the Denon, as many have pointed out it doesn't have the clarity, although is much more warmer and some say better sound. The 5803 and 5805 are excellent but unfortunately are way out of my price range. The Denon name demands a higher price, the 5803 can go for $800-$1000 and the 5805 for over $1000 used! This is ridiculous since I can get most of the other Ubers for half the price used on eBay or craigslist!

Finally, the Yamaha Z9 is the ultimate machine as you put it so well, but it is WAY out of my price range. They still sell for over $800 minimum if you can even find them. So for me I think the Pioneer 59txi is the most affordable with the features I need... If I find any other ones maybe a steal of a deal, I will of course be on the lookout. It's just sad that the Onkyo didn't have the 100mhz switching and standard analog connectors... I will let you know if I end up hooking it up or just upgrading! I haven't even hooked it up to listen yet as it takes a few hours to set everything up and that's too much work if I won't be using the component video switching or analog inputs from the blu-ray for now anyway....

 

[Silverchroma]

Thanks for the appreciation Silverchroma. Though I write for pure fun, time permitting, it is always good to know my write-ups are of some help to others.

Very useful thank you! It's much appreciated!:clapping:

some Group-B Ubers may have Malaysia made components. I dont know.

Yes many are now made in Malaysia and are not as well built as they were before. The components they use are often cheaper, but also the build quality is not so good. Cost cutting (including outsourcing) is what killed these Ubers off. Look at the Z11, most people think it's a lot more inferior to the Z9 and maybe it's because it's made in Malaysia and looks and feels cheaper too...

Pardon me, as an Indian I write relative to Indian context. Our mains are 230 volts, 50 Hz which follows that of United Kingdom. Europe in general have AV amplifiers (devoid of internal tuner) but are available in stunningly beautiful titanium, silver and golden casing finishes whereas United States always get the all black AV receivers (AVR). Here is a list for you help

Definately helps in choosing, thank you! I guess they like things boring over here. I have seen the Sony DA9000ES in Silver and have never seen it in black?

To me a TOTL Onkyo TX-DS989 (Ver2) aka Integra DTR-9.1 (U2) released in 2002 carries much weight (apart from its 130W X 7 power output and 22 kilo heft) than say a TOTL Yamaha DSP-AZ1/ RX-Z1 of similar time frame. It simply a standing piece of history. With this Integra you are already at a high level in terms of SQ. Its only 10 years old and if you do have a proper DB25 adaptor then its a keeper. Only Group-A Ubers will take you on a higher level in terms of SQ and product quality.
Do not find any reason to downgrade to a cheaper Yamaha DSP-AZ1/ RX-Z1 when you have the Integra DTR-9.1 (U2). I have only read reviews and they are said to be musical and bright sounding. The RX-Z1 will also be incompatible with 7.1 channel analog out of BD players as it accepts only 5.1 channels. Also it does with only six identically powered channels while rest two are front presence with much lower power output. A complete NO from my side. From your post I get that you want the DSP-Z9/ RX-Z9 but is unfortunately out of your current budget.

I agree. The only reason I was thinking of the Z1 is that it has 100MHZ component video switching, sleeker looks (I think the Integra 9.1/Onkyo 989 both look and feel cheaper than the other Ubers), and of course the normal analog input (I only need 5.1 not 7.1). The Z9 would be my ultimate receiver but the minimum for a beat up one without a remote is probably $800, good condition with remote is over $1000 I think on the used market.

What are your impressions of using Integra (having @ 40MHz) with your HTDV? If positive then the other Ubers supporting 40 MHz will do for you.

I haven't used the Integra 9.1U2 with component video switching. In fact I haven't even hooked up the Integra at all in all this time. I bought it on a whim and thought it was the cheapest Uber I can buy. It was $3200 new but I got it for $200 (without the remote or any accessories). The reason I haven't tried it is that I don't have the DB25 connector yet and I am debating whether to even spend the $75 to buy it if I may upgrade anyways to something with higher component video switching. I COULD buy the adapter for now, and use my component video switching box which has 230mhz, but it is an inconvenience to use a separate box. I already have too many remotes and trouble programing my Marantz RC9500 (Philips Pronto NG) Remote for all my components... I know that it will take me a few hours to hook this up and once I get everything hooked up, I will probably find a 59txi in my price range (I have seen them for around $400 used including the remote and mic and accessories used). The Onkyo TX-NR1000 (Integra 10.5) goes for around $600 which is a bit out of my price range but does offer HDMI if I need it in the future... Marantz SR9600 is my least favourite as far as aesthetics go ($600-$800), Sony DA9000ES is a great one but way expensive ($800-$1000 minimum) and rare... Denon 5803 and 5805 (5800 is not 100mhz) are great but way too expensive (5803 can run $800 and 5805 over $1000 easily). I think Denon has a name so all the Denon even the old 5800 or 4802R will be more than the 59txi or Onkyo TX-NR1000 even though it is not as new or high end, etc...

The 59txi fits the black lacquer on my Loewe Aconda TV and my Pioneer BDP-51FD Blu-Ray so will match perfectly and has all the features I need. If I find another of the Uber receivers with the features I need for around $300-$400 used I will get one.

I dont know if you seen these Uber AV amplifiers in flesh with titanium, gold and silver finishing like I have, they have the ability to steal your dream with their beautiful and majestic looks and the awesome quality it exudes just standing still. I have not even talked about their performance. They have this high end feel which unfortunately are completely lacking in current TOTL AVRs which feels more like AV gadgets.

Unfortunately things are not made like this much anymore. I always thought the Japanese TOTL Uber's looked way higher quality and had better build than their American counterparts such as Lexicon, B&K, etc... Whenever I see a B&K receiver and the cheap connectors on the back, it makes me cringe that people could have paid so much for a receiver... They don't have the same feel to them. Of course there are exceptions but not for American receivers (Except maybe McIntosh although I don't like the looks too much), mostly European. The TOTL Arcam's used to be great, and of course Meridian Seperates are perhaps the worlds best, etc...

 

[rishiguru]

Apologies for the late reply.
.Yes very useful! thank you!:clapping:
. Very useful thank you! It's much appreciated!:clapping:

Apologies accepted.

I find your above two consecutive posts contain the same material. Better update your 1st post next time rather than posting the same. From here on I am merging your comments from both.

Yes many are now made in Malaysia and are not as well built as they were before. The components they use are often cheaper, but also the build quality is not so good. Cost cutting (including outsourcing) is what killed these Ubers off. Look at the Z11, most people think it's a lot more inferior to the Z9 and maybe it's because it's made in Malaysia and looks and feels cheaper too... the Z11 was made in Malaysia and many people didn't find it as good as the Japan made Z9. I feel like they didn't only save costs on the component quality, but also the build quality and of course outsourcing makes them cheaper to manufacture but not as good.

To a certain extent YES. From Yamaha side the DSP-Z9 was the first and last Uber that was completely built and shipped from Japan. Their only other Uber, DSP-Z11 started the Made in Malaysia trend. To my inexperienced eyes, just by looking I did not notice any difference in terms of built quality between Z9 & Z11 except for the former having better & bigger quality speaker terminals. The electronic components used inside may tell completely different stories in terms of component quality.

What about the Yamaha Z7 you mentioned earlier, was that a Europe Only model?

NO.

The European and Asian countries had DSP-Z7 where as in North America it was better known as RX-Z7. The Z7 was the direct successor of their ever popular RX-V3900 and can never be claimed as an Uber. It got released later than Z11 to bridge the gap between that RX-V3900 & Z11. Connectivity and feature wise it was more laden than DSP-Z11 but lacked in terms of power output and sound quality.

The Z7 was more or less the RX-V3900 on steroids. It had a slightly bigger transformer, power capacitors, slightly better component quality and a new casing having somewhat the same high end feel of Z11. The current Aventage series range topping RX-A30xx is an extention of this model. Below are two images reveling identical internal components:

Yamaha DSP-Z7/ RX-Z7

Yamaha RX-V3900

I have seen the Sony DA9000ES in Silver and have never seen it in black?

I too believe Sony TA-DA9000ES was available in silver and gold only. Extremely rare AV amplifier with digital power amps.

I haven't used the Integra 9.1U2 with component video switching. In fact I haven't even hooked up the Integra at all in all this time. I bought it on a whim and thought it was the cheapest Uber I can buy. It was $3200 new but I got it for $200 (without the remote or any accessories). The reason I haven't tried it is that I don't have the DB25 connector yet and I am debating whether to even spend the $75 to buy it if I may upgrade anyways to something with higher component video switching. ..... The only reason I was thinking of the Z1 is that it has 100MHZ component video switching, sleeker looks (I think the Integra 9.1/Onkyo 989 both look and feel cheaper than the other Ubers), and of course the normal analog input (I only need 5.1 not 7.1). Better more "sleek" looks.

SQ wise I cannot comment whether the RX-Z1 is better than your Onkyo. I am yet to hear both. If 5.1 channel analog inputs are enough for you, vouch for it, from the different positive reviews I read it seems you will not be disappointed. As I have always found with the Yamahas they sounds more musical than either Denon or Onkyo. But thats me.

Neither Integra 9.1/Onkyo 989 nor RX-Z1 can claim Ubers status, so there always going to be a difference in terms of built quality and component quality between them and Ubers. As for RX-Z1 it was basically the RX-V1 in a new box. But what a box it was, 12 years down the line it is so effective in eluding you. Jokes aside the cabinet quality of RX-Z1 was awesome, I will say as exquisite as RX-Z9 if not better. It contained excellent pre-amp/power-amp section (by AVR standards) and were made in Japan (a big plus). The Z9 being an Uber is a different beast altogether the moment you turn it on. As for component video output frequency RX-Z1 definitely have an upper hand in supporting 100 MHz for HDTV and may sound more musical than your Onkyo.

On eBay I find the Pioneer 59txi often for about $400 with the remote and special microphone for setting the volume. I think aesthetically the 59txi matches the lacquered finish on my Loewe Aconda and my Pioneer BDP-51FD Blu-Ray. ..Finally the Denon, as many have pointed out it doesn't have the clarity, although is much more warmer and some say better sound. The 5803 and 5805 are excellent but unfortunately are way out of my price range. The Denon name demands a higher price, the 5803 can go for $800-$1000 and the 5805 for over $1000 used! This is ridiculous since I can get most of the other Ubers for half the price used on eBay or craigslist! I will probably find a 59txi in my price range (I have seen them for around $400 used including the remote and mic and accessories used). . So for me I think the Pioneer 59txi is the most affordable with the features I need... If I find any other ones maybe a steal of a deal, I will of course be on the lookout.

The Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S/VSX-59Txi is WAY better than Yamaha RX-Z1. If you can have a THX Ultra 2 certified Uber like 59Txi within your budget do not even look back. Denons like AVR-5803 and AVR-5805 are real class, you can have them too, they are going to take you to realms you never thought existed in home theater. Ditto here as Pioneer was so confident about 59Txi's sound quality they called it "Multi-Channel Stereophonic Amplifier".

Pioneer like Yamaha only made two Ubers, VSA-AX10 (released in 2001) followed by SC-LX90 (released in 2007). Of the two VSA-AX10/VSX-49Tx is generally voted to be more refined and musical as SC-LX90 used digital power amps, and at those times digital power amps were not as refined as of now. VSA-AX10i-S, the i.Link version of VSA-AX10 followed in 2002. The last and extreme version VSA-AX10Ai-S/ VSX-59Txi was introduced in 2004 with upgraded components to dampen the onslaught from Yamaha and Denon. With an US $4,500 price tag, the VSX-59Txi were completely built in Japan with component and build quality you can only dream of current avrs.

The power supply section consisted of 10 kilo EI core transformer coupled with a pair of huge 33,000uF power capacitors to provide ample power to feed seven pairs of Pioneer's exclusive Advanced Direct Energy MOFSET's bolted to unique chimney shaped heat sinks. Power output was rated at very modest 130 watts X 2 @ 0.09% THD @ 20Hz~20kHz @ 8 ohms while some reputed magazines found 59Txi was ripping muscles at 276 watts X 2 @ 1kHz @ 4 ohms before clipping (1%THD+noise). Under same set of conditions it delivered as much as 140 Wpc @ 8 ohms with all seven channels driven simultaneously. No shortage of power here.

Pre-amplifier bore exquisite design where D/A conversion were taken care by famous 2nd best Burr Brown DAC aka PCM1704 (also found in DSP-Z1) on all eight channels individually, though DSP-Z9 had the best and most expensive DAC, Burr Brown PCM1792 (as found in top end sound cards like Asus Xonar Essense STX). The 59Txi had Pioneer's new Advanced MCACC acoustic calibration system, an unique ability (at those times) to play music files from PC connected via USB with inbuilt WMA9 Pro decoder not to mention full i.Link support. It had full 7.1 channel analog inputs to support current blu-ray audio formats. Elaborate schemes were followed with use of highly accurate 192 kHz/24-bit ADCs on all eight channels individually to precisely reproduce Blu-ray/DVD-A/SACD sound sources via multi-channel inputs. For two-channel analogue sources, four ADCs were used for each channel for further precise conversion. This ensured truly superb 2-channel analog stereo reproduction. Of course, bypassing all A/D, DSP and subsequent D/A conversion by directly routing the analogue input to the power amplifier by Pure Direct path was equally possible. All digital audio formats known to man (except for Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio) were supported by VSA-AX10Ai-S.

All these and much more enclosed in a full copper plated heavy duty chassis with heavy 4 kilo cast iron base made by TAOC increasing the strength and stability of the chassis, tipping the scales with a combined weight of 34 kilos. The chassis exterior panels like DSP-Z9 were exquisite in nature showing real class and aura of "Ubers". We are talking about gold mines here. Simply grab the VSA-AX10Ai-S aka VSX-59Txi.

Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S

Exquisite casing quality

Full Gold plated input/output terminals at the back for minimal noise and distortion

4 kg TAOC base bolted to chassis for supreme stability

AIR Studios sound engineers fine tuning Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S signature sound

"Monitor Reference" certification for AIR Studios

Unique Windows PC support for playing audio files

High quality speaker terminals

Unique "Chimney shaped" heatsinks for the MOSFET's

True "Reference Quality" sound

Finally, the Yamaha Z9 is the ultimate machine as you put it so well, but it is WAY out of my price range. They still sell for over $800 minimum if you can even find them. The Z9 would be my ultimate receiver but the minimum for a beat up one without a remote is probably $800, good condition with remote is over $1000 I think on the used market.

With time comes experience and with it comes modesty. With these virtues comes modest use of adjectives like ULTIMATE. For me DSP-Z9 was the best sounding AV amplifier but I only compared it head on with DSP-Z11 and AVC-A1SRA. There are so many other Ubers out there. Until I hear all of them I cannot ascertain DSP-Z9 was the ultimate AV amplifier ever built. But that said I find other members like ynotbubba gives full thumbs up to it after comparing with so many Ubers.

Unfortunately things are not made like this much anymore. I always thought the Japanese TOTL Uber's looked way higher quality and had better build than their American counterparts such as Lexicon, B&K, etc... Whenever I see a B&K receiver and the cheap connectors on the back, it makes me cringe that people could have paid so much for a receiver... They don't have the same feel to them. Of course there are exceptions but not for American receivers (Except maybe McIntosh although I don't like the looks too much), mostly European. The TOTL Arcam's used to be great, and of course Meridian Seperates are perhaps the worlds best, etc...

Same feelings here.:sad:

 

[rishiguru]

I haven't used the Integra 9.1U2 with component video switching. In fact I haven't even hooked up the Integra at all in all this time... The reason I haven't tried it is that I don't have the DB25 connector yet and I am debating whether to even spend the $75 to buy it if I may upgrade anyways to something with higher component video switching. I COULD buy the adapter for now, and use my component video switching box which has 230mhz, but it is an inconvenience to use a separate box. I already have too many remotes and trouble programing my Marantz RC9500 (Philips Pronto NG) Remote for all my components... I know that it will take me a few hours to hook this up and once I get everything hooked up, I will probably find a 59txi in my price range (I have seen them for around $400 used including the remote and mic and accessories used)...The 59txi fits the black lacquer on my Loewe Aconda TV and my Pioneer BDP-51FD Blu-Ray so will match perfectly and has all the features I need. If I find another of the Uber receivers with the features I need for around $300-$400 used I will get one.

I would have avoided the video switching box route as it only increases clutter, nothing more. It is something one needs in dire straits. The video route should follow the shortest path from blu-ray player to your Loewe Aconda. I feel VSX-59Txi to be a perfect match for your setup. It suits your budget, comes with component video outs @ 100 MHz supporting HDTV resolutions of 720p/1080i not to mention the looks to match your existing setup. Even with no video up-scaling capabilities, at US $400 they are real steal. Additionally, it supports complete Bi-amping and Bi-wiring options for the fronts. Though I am yet to hear a VSX-59Txi, I have gone through countless posts on many forums only singing praises regarding SQ and how well built it was. I tend to believe it is the closest competitor of DSP-Z9 in terms of audio quality. Even some helpful features like Lip Sync is also present where Audio/ Video synchronization with sound delay of upto 6 frames (0.1 frame steps) can be achieved.

Many people do the mistake of considering the Yamaha DSP-AZ1/ RX-Z1 as an Uber due to its casing quality which aspires the class and aura of Group-A Ubers. While Denon released the first true Uber in 2000 by the name of AVC-A1SE/AVR-5800 it got an imminent response next year from Pioneer in the form of VSA-AX10/VSX-49Tx while Yamaha was still on its drawing boards for their first Uber aka DSP-Z9/RX-Z9 to be released in 2004. So for immediate solution what they did was to take their 1999 released DSP-AX1/RX-V1 (US $3,300) with minor modifications and shove it into an Uber like casing and Bingo in 2001 they have a new AV amplifier by the name DSP-AZ1 (US $2,800). They knew from very start Denon and Pioneer have reached a whole new level while DSP-AZ1 was lacking minimum requirements like 7.1 channel analog inputs and i.Link support not the mention the level of refinement which there to be released DSP-Z9 will offer. Thus their new DSP-AZ1 was amazingly 500 dollars cheaper than its predecessor where as Ubers realm started from US $4,000 onwards.

I love Yamaha gear, but in this case I urge you to look for much superior Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S/VSX-59Txi (US $4,500) rather than Yamaha DSP-AZ1/RX-Z1 (US $2,800). The Pioneer is undoubtly the performance king here and sits on top of it.

Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S/VSX-59Txi sits on top of Yamaha DSP-AZ1/RX-Z1

Unfortunately things are not made like this much anymore... They don't have the same feel to them.

Japanese legacy Uber AV amplifiers/ AVRs where all "Made in Japan". As such they had better build quality and some unique features, like the option to be used as a power amplifier when required. Power supply and output stages on those AVRs were robust enough to qualify them to be used as pure power amplifiers. Sadly with advent of Made in Malaysia/China trend from 2007 onwards and an ever increasing demand of features over SQ in AVR category, they do NOT posses this option any more even in range topping models. This is due to shrinking power supply & power amp sections to be invaded by huge circuit boards. DSP-Z11/ RX-Z11 were a prime example.

If you buy an "Uber" like VSX-59Txi for mere 400 dollars (for what its worth), you are harking back to a decade old AVR which will decode all digital audio formats a DVD can offer. For blu-ray high definition audio you still have 7.1 channel analog input support. A decade down the line with successors of blu-ray emerging with say 9.1 or even more channels, you still be able to use it as a dedicated power amp to front speakers. It still will be of some use and reap benefits to the money spend on it.

Pioneer VSX-59Txi Front channel Power Amp IN option

With VSX-59Txi any external pre-amplifier can be used to provide 130 watts X 2 @ 8 ohms @ 0.09%THD @ 20Hz~20kHz to the front channels. And I am talking about REAL 130 watts per channel not some kamikaze power specs of current AVRs. The DSP-Z9/RX-Z9 with even more powerful power amp stages will power not only the fronts but also the center, this time with 170 watts X 3 @ 8 ohms @ 0.015%THD @ 20Hz~20kHz. The DSP-Z11/ RX-Z11 by that time will be unusable with support for only 7.1 channel formats and in having no options to use it as a power amp.

Yamaha DSP-Z9 Front & Center channel Power Amp IN options

 

[Silverchroma]

Hello Rishiguru San,

So I ended up trading the Integra 9.1 for a Pioneer 47tx. I couldn't find a 49txi for less than a 59txi, and I couldn't find either at my price point yet. I think maybe in a few months I will upgrade.

From what I understand the 49txi is identical to the 47tx except for: Firewire input for SACD, a couple more DACs which may be higher quality, and that's about it? This unit is a mega monster too that weighs 65LBS, etc... I traded because I didn't want to have that HD-25 connector and just plugged in.

I am having a problem with the Subwoofer output when playing multichannel from the blu-ray. It doesn't seem to put anything out. I heard this is a common issue with many receiver models. It plays just fine from Optical or Coaxial digital in, but not from Multichannel digital in. It played fine from my old Denon 3805.

Soundwise - The Denon did sound warmer. The output on the Pioneer specs wise isn't much more but it does SOUND a lot louder. The MCACC callibration is EXCELLENT, but again for some reason it disables the subwoofer... The Pioneer has a slightly brighter sound, but not as musical as the Denon. I kind of liked the Denon sound, and am thinking to even get a 5800 or 5803 if I can find one in my price range.

The thing that draws me towards the 59txi is the high quality metal speaker connectors (instead of the cheap plastic), the looks, and most importantly the Windows Media USB input. I don't think any of the other Ubers have this feature? Pioneer is often the first, in fact the 47tx and 49txi were the FIRST EVER THX ULTRA 2 certified receivers on the market...

Also the bi-amping is a bit confusing for me. From what I understand, most speakers need to bipass the internal passive crossover when using bi-amping mode and need an electronic crossover. If bi-amping without that crossover, then the high frequency signal will go to the woofers, and spoil the sound and make it sound bright... If that is the case, what will bridging the two channels in bi-amp mode do? Will this short out the receiever or will it just put twice as much power into the one speakers? If this will work, then what are the advantages of Bi-Amping (4 terminal posts on amp to four terminal posts on speakers) vs. Bridging (4 terminal posts on amp to two terminal posts on speakers)?

Thank you Sensei!

 

[vinehs]

hello everyone ! on this thread...
Awesome amount of details for know how...excellent compilation by rishi...:clapping:thanks.
my pick is Z9...:yahoo:

 

[deseronrr]

Hello can you give more info on my denon 5803

 

[rishiguru]

Hello Rishiguru San, So I ended up trading the Integra 9.1 for a Pioneer 47tx. I couldn't find a 49txi for less than a 59txi, and I couldn't find either at my price point yet. Soundwise - The Denon did sound warmer.

Denons default sound signature is WARM. Or so I felt after some five hours of auditioning Denon AVC-A1SRA/ AVR-5803A with Yamaha DSP-Z11/ RX-Z11 which was much brighter with slightly thinner mids and sparkling highs. I found DSP-Z9 to be best of both worlds in having some of the warmness of Denon, mids were silky liquid smooth while highs being as airy as DSP-Z11. This was the main reason why I opted for DSP-Z9 over the rest two.

From what I understand the 49txi is identical to the 47tx except for: Firewire input for SACD, a couple more DACs which may be higher quality, and that's about it? This unit is a mega monster too that weighs 65LBS, etc... I traded because I didn't want to have that HD-25 connector and just plugged in.

The main differences between the two:

1) 47Tx used four Burr-Brown PCM1738 DACs in single-ended configuration for its 8 discrete audio channels. The 49Txi used eight discrete Burr-Brown PCM1704 for its eight discrete channels which are much superior as well as expensive.
2) 49Txi had iLink with jitter control.
3) 49Txi had much more DSP processing power.
4) 49Txi had a better touch screen remote control.
5) 49Txi had better MCACC acoustic calibration.
6) 49Txi was worth a US $1,000 more.

As all knows DACs are the major player for creating a specific sound signature and the refinement of the amp is a lot dependant on it. This is because it happens to be the focal point where the digital audio signals are finally converted to analog and fed to the power amps. I am yet to hear a 47Tx or a 49Tx or a 49Txi or even 59Txi. That being said I still believe 49Txi will be more refined sound wise than 47Tx. But then again these are all my thoughts and I could be wrong.

Pioneer VSA-AX10 aka VSX-49Tx

Remote control

The output on the Pioneer specs wise isn't much more but it does SOUND a lot louder

Even though avrs like Pioneer VSA-AX8/ VSX-47Tx were modestly rated at just 130 watts per channel, power output wise they will slay any current range topping AVR from Pioneer stable hands down.

The thing that draws me towards the 59txi is the high quality metal speaker connectors (instead of the cheap plastic), the looks, and most importantly the Windows Media USB input. I don't think any of the other Ubers have this feature?

Just like cars which have a fully trimmed less costly base model and a fully loaded one, Pioneer introduced the 47Tx and 49Tx in the year 2001 to compete in two completely different AVR segments. 47Tx was made to compete with sub US $3,000 segment range with the likes of Yamaha DSP-AZ1/ RX-Z1 while 49Tx with US $4,000+ Ubers like Denon AVC-A1SE/ AVR-5800.

With fast development pace in this segment Denon upgraded the AVR-5800 to AVC-A1SRA/ AVR-5803A in 2003, Pioneer following suit with VSA-AX10Ai-S/ VSX-59Txi in 2004. So as it remains today the VSX-59Txi is the finest example of this model lineup, and no doubt superior to your VSX-47Tx.

Pioneer is often the first, in fact the 47tx and 49txi were the FIRST EVER THX ULTRA 2 certified receivers on the market...

Pioneer by name, Pioneer by nature..

Also the bi-amping is a bit confusing for me. From what I understand, most speakers need to bipass the internal passive crossover when using bi-amping mode and need an electronic crossover. If bi-amping without that crossover, then the high frequency signal will go to the woofers, and spoil the sound and make it sound bright... If that is the case, what will bridging the two channels in bi-amp mode do? Will this short out the receiever or will it just put twice as much power into the one speakers? If this will work, then what are the advantages of Bi-Amping (4 terminal posts on amp to four terminal posts on speakers) vs. Bridging (4 terminal posts on amp to two terminal posts on speakers)?

Uber AV amplifiers/ AVRs with bi-amping facility did not contain any inbuilt electronic active crossovers. I believe no AVR does this till now. The same full-range audio signals are sent through the front as well as rear surround speaker terminals of AVR so as to connect to a speaker with bi-amping facility using its internal passive crossover.

While you can argue using Ubers quite advanced inbuilt parametric equalizers provided for each of the channels one can tune to send LFs to the woofers (say with the rear surround terminals) while the rest to the tweeters (through the front terminals), I still think the equalizers does not have the sufficient adjustments needed to deal with this situation and most importantly was not designed to take over the work of a dedicated passive crossover present inside the speaker. Yes one could have definitely stopped unwanted high frequencies sent to the passive crossover of the speakers dealing with woofers but whether it would have made a difference I seriously doubt it.

The real benefit of bi-amping with AVRs is to have more power delivered to the front speakers especially while listening music in stereo mode. Ofcourse you do not have twice as much power but still get substantially more. Say a Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S with 130 watts X 2 @ 8 ohms rated power output under bi-amp mode will deliver as much as 200 watts X 2 to the fronts speakers in stereo playback. So now one has REAL 200 watts per channel to take care of bi-ampable hulking BAD ASS floor-standers.

The reason for the power output not to double up (i.e 260 watts X 2) is due to the limitation in power supply unit. Mind you REAL 200 watts X 2 = 400 watts will require a 800 watts power supply with Class-AB power amps which means a 800+ VA EI Core power transformer weighing nearly 10 kilos, which is exactly what VSA-AX10Ai-S have got. Using the same configuration in multi-channel mode will yield 5.1 channels, but now since the other extra three channels are also active the bi-amped fronts will have much less power, maybe around 140 watts per channel or so.

Thank you Sensei!

You are most welcome.