Help me to choose between these MEGA MONSTERS!!!

After a lot of wandering of will I or will not, finally I thought to spare an hour or two from my hectic schedule to write a little bit about the advent of Uber AV amplifier era which lasted from 2000 to 2007. This personal write up depicted below is my own view regarding how the AV amplifier industry evolved in the last ten to twelve years.

Before one starts reading, let me firmly stress that ones own opinions may vary and I do respect with outmost sincerity every ones own perspectives & views. It will be of great help if he/ she express his/her own views regarding the topic in this post.
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THE BEGINING OF UBER AV AMPLIFIER ERA

Year 2000 marked the 90th anniversary of Denon and its parent company, Nippon Columbia Co., Ltd. To celebrate its anniversary, Denon launched the worlds first DTS-ES Discrete AV amplifier, AVC-A1SE, which quickly became a landmark in AV amplifier history and was rightfully called the Uber AV amplifier with an equally staggering US $4,000 price tag.

Denon AVC-A1SE [Released: 2000]

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It really took the world by storm and questions began to rise as of how an AV amplifier can cost $4,000? These questions were soon answered as the so called renowned audiophile companies started selling AV separates (processor + amplifiers) costing twice that of AVC-A1SE at heavily discounted prices!!! Denon created this Uber AV amplifier segment with just one motive, to provide sonic performance rivaling separates costing two times its price.

Denon AVC-A1SE Internal View (Just look at the size of those heatsinks!!!)

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This 28 kilo beast of an AV amplifier had an excellent audio amplifier section resulting in great sound quality and overall performance. With its seven channels of unrivalled 170 watts @ 8 ohms power; it simply blurred the line that existed before between separates and the average mass-market AV amplifier. Denons competitors were also hit. Suddenly the just released Top Of The Line (TOTL) AV amplifiers from Yamaha, Pioneer & Onkyo seemed out of place & mundane in comparison to this Denon flagship.

Mr Izumi Ozeki, the technical head and AV guru of Yamaha Audio realized Denon had raised their game to a whole new level, an uncharted territory for Yamaha and something completely new in terms of design approach & philosophy were required from their part in order to create the true AVC-A1SE challenger. His own original design sketched a decade ago for DSP-A1000 TOTL A/V amplifier had reached the limit of its performance level with each successive release of DSP-A2070 in 1992, DSP-A3090 in 1995, DSP-A1 in 1997 & DSP-AX1 in 1999. Any further evolution of the same design followed for the past decade was not going to create the true AVC-A1SE challenger.

Yamaha DSP-A1000 aka AVX-2000DSP in Japan [Released: 1990]

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Every manufacturing company follow the process of evolution with the successive models of a benchmark product for a certain period of time until:

1) The technology implemented in the benchmark product becomes obsolete.

2) The desired product has hit its performance peak due to design limitations and any more evolution with further refinements/ features will not improve the product.

3) Its competitor in the market has released a new product raising the performance bar to a whole new level which is unattainable with their current product.

All AV companies follow this evolution process in order to save huge development costs required in sketching a completely new AV amplifier and then designing it from scratch. It takes huge effort, time and money. New designs are made to make a revolution, and designing & developing revolutions take time, and time is money. After that comes the gestation period of testing phases which requires further redesigning and redevelopment to smooth the rough edges of the product requiring more time and a solid development budget.

At Yamaha Audio, with the final nod from the board of directors to create the true AVC-A1SE challenger, Mr Ozeki with his handpicked group of elite engineers went on to design & develop a completely new and revolutionary AV amplifier from 2000 onwards for a lengthy period of four years by AV market standards.

While Denon sold thousands of AVC-A1SEs and reaped huge profits, Yamaha just could not sit idle between 1999 released DSP-AX1 TOTL A/V amplifer and to be released AVC-A1SE challenger in 2004 with their hands folded, newer TOTL models need to be released no matter what for every two years, in the ever evolving AV market so that customers remain happy and most importantly the money keeps flowing into the company to keep the company afloat.

Yamaha DSP-AX1 [Released: 1999]

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With almost all the engineer's busy in creating the AVC-A1SE challenger in Yamaha R&D labs, what they did for an interim solution with minimum effort was to take the DSP-AX1 internals, paint the heatsinks in anodized black color for better thermal heat dissipation and shove it in a new box, a truly aesthetically beautiful casing with new face & side panels and pump the power output levels a little more towards self destruction and rename it DSP-AZ1. This TOTL A/V amplifier is a living example of how much a decade old but potent design architecture can be stretched beyond its performance capabilities and then somehow manage to resist itself for self annihilation. More of this in the next post.

Yamaha DSP-AZ1 [Released: 2001]

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As anticipated DSP-AZ1s release was not greeted with the usual fanfare and big enthusiasm shown over TOTL amps by the AV enthusiasts and media in 2001, Denon stealing the show with their newly released and truly awesome AVC-A1SE Uber AV amplifier. Media & enthusiasts said DSP-AZ1 is a good AV amp completely justifying its US $2,800 price tag, but being dated in terms of new technology compared to AVC-A1SE and more or less the same as DSP-AX1 in a new box. In terms of internal audio amplifier performance and SQ, the AVC-A1SE swallowed the DSP-AZ1 and did not even burp.

A closer look below revels identical internal hardware components where used in DSP-AX1 & DSP-AZ1:

Yamaha DSP-AX1 Internals

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Yamaha DSP-AZ1 Internals

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Yamaha never indented to challenge Denons TOTL flagship with this model, their target where those customers who did not have enough moolah to cough up $4,000 for AVC-A1SE, and rather settle for the DSP-AZ1 which was undoubtly good and essentially keep money flowing into the company. In 2002, Denon introduced DENON LINK technology and the first product to incorporate the new DENON LINK was the AVC-A1SR, which was the same AVC-A1SE with this added feature along with new anodized black heatsinks for better heat dissipation capabilities thus increasing the mass by 1 kilo to scale 29 kilos.

Denon AVC-A1SR [Released: 2002]

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Two years further in 2004, Denon massaged the proven AVC-A1SR with newer Dolby Pro Logic IIx, Denon Link 3 and HDCD decoding features and introduced the final version of this AV amplifier, the AVC-A1SRA.

Denon AVC-A1SRA [Released: 2004]

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In the meantime after a long wait of nearly four years Yamaha finally introduced their revolutionary and long awaited Denon AVC-A1SE/ AVC-A1SR/ AVC-A1SRA challenger which incorporating many of AV industries firsts. The model name was Yamaha DSP-Z9 where 9 meant nine channels of amplifications, two more than AVC-A1SRA at 170 watts @ 8 ohms for the main seven channels and two 50 watts @ 8 ohms front presence channels at much lower THD levels than Denon ever managed. And yes, it was truly a quantum leap by Yamaha AV amplifier standards not only in power output capability but also in sound quality which became quite evident as it immediately won the coveted Best Home Theater High-End Component award from EISA straight away in 2004. Weighing 30 kilos and burning a black hole of US $4,500 in the owners pocket it was a true challenger of the gladiatorial AVC-A1SRA, finally winning the epic battle. This time AVC-A1SRA had to admit defeat in front of DSP-Z9's might.

Yamaha DSP-Z9 [Released: 2004]

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DSP-Z9 was so good in terms of sound quality, product quality, genuinely usable feature sets and its herculean ability to drive 4 ohm loads on all channels simultaneously (which AVC-A1SRA failed) under full load conditions partly due to its class leading 1500VAC toroidal transformer and partly for a power amplifier section with dedicated 16 pairs of power transistors (instead of 9 pairs) for its nine channels.

This time Denon was forced to follow Yamahas route to design & develop a new hulk of an AV monster amplifier from scratch just like Yamaha did for its DSP-Z9, realizing that even their mighty AVC-A1SRA base design was no match for the herculean DSP-Z9. This time though their intentions were not just to win back the coveted crown from Yamaha but to usurp its competitors and shake their very foundations. The result was the Denon AVC-A1XV released in 2006, weighing 44 kilos, costing a whopping $6,000 and thankfully ending all wars between A/V manufactures once and for all.

Denon AVC-A1XV [Released: 2006]

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With AVC-A1XV, Denon did not create a gladiator like the former AVC-A1SRA but a HULK monster which simply decimated its opposition to near oblivion with ten channels of 170 watts @ 8 ohms amplification. It also permitted DVI video signal input to HDMI video output and vice versa, but video up-scaling was limited to analog component video out using the same DSP-Z9s Faroudja DCDi Scaling Chip (480p/720p/1080i). Unfortunately the AVC-A1XV had the same persistent weakness of its predecessor, the inability to drive 4 ohm loads on all channels simultaneously under full load conditions.

Technically speaking, those few knowledgeable people who had serviced these Denon monsters often say the AVC-A1SE/ AVC-A1SR/ AVC-A1SRA & their almighty successor the AVC-A1XV were the best AV amps Denon ever made. With time and newer Denon models, power output stages got smaller, power supply sections started shrinking where as number of audio channels went on increasing. People started to forget that AV amplifiers are more about audio amplification and its sonic performance rather than video up-scaling, how many stickers are there for different supporting formats, HDMI and most importantly acceptance of USB & iPod dock!!!

With HDMI becoming the norm in audio/ video digital standard, AV manufactures started devoting more & more of their synergy and development budget into acceptance of this standard, a huge part of their energy and development cost went in creating proper HD audio/ video decoding circuits and all importantly, seamless integration with iPod, network and USB devices.

In the new HDMI era an AV amplifier isnt just an AV amplifier. Its a series of diplomatic handshakes. Sure, manufacturers developed some of the technologies that go into their products, but they also licensed a lot of these technologies paying huge sums to other outfits which enhance their products, increase the face value and acceptability en masse.

Before the HDMI era, video processing on an AV amplifier was an "added" feature and not the primary objective of these units. The primary object was the audio amplifier section and its objective was to deliver sonic bliss. Opening the cabinet of any TOTL AV amplifier before HDMI era, one ended up searching for processing circuit boards among those humongous power supply and power amplifier sections. In the current HDMI era its just the opposite, you look out for the audio amplifier sections among those huge HDMI & different third part audio/ video processing/ decoding circuit boards.

In short AV amplifiers became AV gadgets, sacrificing all important sound quality for ease of use. Nothing to complain here, just that customer mindsets have changed, now they love gadgets with more accessing facility than ever and the AV industry is following this trend due to demand.

It's great that DSP-Z9 and AVC-A1XV had the ability to perform up & down video conversions, and that alone put them ahead of most AV amps of that time in terms of video switching capabilities. There were so much more in these AV amps that justified their cost beyond HDMI audio/ video processing abilities.

In result when the TOTL successors of the DSP-Z9 & AVC-A1XV where released in 2007, the Yamaha DSP-Z11 & Denon AVC-A1HD respectively, they had very good audio amplifier sections against those excellent ones of their predecessors, 30 watts or even less power output capability per channel, much higher THD levels and much less current available to the drive low impedance speakers under full load conditions resulting in a somewhat sacrificed sound quality, power output & drive capability.

Yamaha DSP-Z11 [Released: 2007]

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Look at the dramatic increase of encoding/ decoding circuit boards:

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Denon AVC-A1HD [Released: 2007]

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But this time full 1080p video up-scaling with all important HDMI and complete HD encoding/ decoding facilities were supported. iPod, USB & network connectivity where the pluses which increased the usability of these AV amplifiers to a great level.

Just for comparison if one looks at the Denon AVC-A1SRA internals below, it shows an all space engulfing huge power amplifier sections with those huge anodized heatsinks and an equally big power supply section with a dedicated 1200VA toroidal transformer supplemented with big can sized power capacitors.

Denon AVC-A1SRA Internals

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Four years on their new flagship Denon AVC-A1HD had a much smaller power supply with equally small power amplifier section while a dramatic increase in encoding/ decoding circuit boards can be seen all over the place.

Denon AVC-A1HD Internals

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According to many so called A/V pundits this era lasting from 2000 to 2007 was of AV amplifier war, resulting in some landmark products that etched their names in gold in the AV industry.

THE END OF UBER AV AMPLIFIER ERA

With recession creeping in resulting an end of AV amplifier war, AV manufacturers stopped creating any more new TOTL A/V amps from 2007 onwards, projecting their complete focus on creating new model lineups having huge flexibility in inputs and acceptance of every possible audio/ video formats known to man.

What was sacrificed was the audio amplifier section and its sound quality which from excellent ones of pre HDMI era to very good ones with the advent of HDMI era became just good ones from 2000 and later releases. This was most evident from the rapid reduction in weight of these amps, for example 2007 released DSP-Z11 weighed 34 kilos where as the current Yamaha Aventage series range topper RX-A3010 weighs just half of DSP-Z11 at 18 kilos.

Yamaha Aventage RX-A3010

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The new trend of audio/video decoding circuit board invasion over minuscule audio amplifier sections can be found even on flagship models like RX-A3010:

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Still today if you have at around INR 4 lakhs to spare you can still get a DSP-Z11 from Yamaha India or an AVC-A1HD from ProFX at INR 3.8 lakhs. For sure they will lack some newer features & encoding/ decoding formats but rest assured you will get jaw dropping sound quality along with thundering power output capability, you might have thought only dedicated separates (processor + multi channel power amplifier) setups were only capable of. And if you are lucky enough to land your hands on the AVC-A1HD predecessor, the almighty AVC-A1XV in a seconds sale, then this hulk will gulp the entire current Denon receiver lineup and will not even burp.

In my next post I will try to describe the design philosophy and the goals set by Mr Ozeki in designing his masterpiece, the DSP-Z9. Later more about the differences between DSP-Z11 and DSP-Z9. Hope I can spare time for all this.

Thanks for reading!!!
 
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rishi - I looked at this thread with not as much interest, when it came to playing music via an AVR. Reason?

1. My own experience (this was because of incorrect settings). The image seemed off center and sound stage was completely screwed up compared to my NAD C375. And this was with a top of the line NAD T785 AVR.
2. everyone sings the praises of stereo amps, and playing music via AVR is an audiophile sin.

However, I realized my mistake a little late. Right now I am back to my JBL fs instead of the thiels. I played some music using analog inputs on the AVR and suddenly everything started sounding right.
Earlier I was listening to digital inputs only. I used to play in stereo mode, but the imaging was bad.
When I played via analog input, the AVR was set to bypass all DSP, including speaker level and distance settings.

So - even for my digital sources, I created a new AVR preset, that bypasses all speaker level/ distance/ crossover (this is important) audessey and what not.

Now with this preset, the avr front outputs full range signal into my speakers, exactly like my stereo amp does. Of course, if I want to use crossover and subs, I can do that. It doesn't sound much different than the stereo amp.

And I will do some comparisons between the DACs of NAD AVR vs Oppo BDP 95, and amplification of NAD C375 vs NAD AVR 785. I think there would be very less difference between the two. And if I end up liking the NAD AVR dacs, man, it would mean lot of components are just gonna go away.
Wow!

This may not be true for entry level AVRs, but I think for a high end/ ToTL avrs, they can compete head on with decent solid state stereo amps.
Rishi - I think you are on the right path for choosing an AVR for music. I didn't believe it earlier, but I do now.
 
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rishi - I looked at this thread with not as much interest, when it came to playing music via an AVR. Reason?

1. My own experience (this was because of incorrect settings). The image seemed off center and sound stage was completely screwed up compared to my NAD C375. And this was with a top of the line NAD T785 AVR.

2. everyone sings the praises of stereo amps, and playing music via AVR is an audiophile sin.

However, I realized my mistake a little late. Right now I am back to my JBL fs instead of the thiels. I played some music using analog inputs on the AVR and suddenly everything started sounding right.

Your second point was valid for me too, until I heard these TOTL AV amplifiers. When I entered this path to achieve audio nirvana I was well doctored by many forums (including this one) that AV amplifiers and multi channel music are for diddly squats while stereo amps are for serious music enthusiasts!!!

My first shock came with owning a 19 year old pre historic 7.1 channel TOTL Yamaha DSP-A2070 AV amplifier and its inherent ability to hold its own against an established and quite loved Marantz PM7004 stereo amplifier.

Though this DSP-A2070 accepted only two analog audio channels using quite old Dolby Pro-Logic technology, in pure direct stereo mode the performance was just sort of amazing. I immediately understood why Yamaha charged US $2000 for their TOTL AV amp back in 1993, it was simply so well engineered, filled with quality components which will ultimately provide sonic bliss we crave and last for the next quarter of a century.

The truth is sonically these TOTL AV amps can really be as good as high quality stereo amps and at the same time provide the added peace of a one box audio video solution. And for me this is enough. Do I want more in terms of performance and SQ? Yes. But I do not possess the money to buy US $10,000+ dartZeel stereo setups and spend an equal amount of money for multi-channel/ movie setups. So they always remain in my dreams.

I am a self proclaimed music lover and enjoy every kind of music and formats that it comes with, be it mono, stereo, or multi-channel. I believe in the philosophy that music can live without HiFi but HiFi can never ever live without music. And I have the liberty to enjoy all these types of high quality music/ movies in any format with these TOTL AV multi-channel amps at a high level.

And I say this not to discriminate stereo lovers. In the end everybody have different needs and preferences. For me though a TOTL AV amp seems to be the most practical solution since it is a one box solution that satisfies almost all my needs and in achieving a music lovers goal of enjoying every format of audio from all type of audio sources within a limited budget.

This may not be true for entry level AVRs, but I think for a high end/ ToTL avrs, they can compete head on with decent solid state stereo amps.

While TOTLs are what they are Top Of The Line, Ubers were born in 2000~2007 era with just one motive to challenge AV separates costing twice as much in terms of SQ & features.

The Denon AVC-A1SE, Yamaha DSP-Z9 and Yamaha DSP-Z11 Ubers that I was fortunate to audition were something special. Others Ubers that needs mentioning are Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S, Sony TA-DA9000ES and Onkyo TX-NR5000. How special are they?

Look at the picture below depicting the rarity of US $5500 Yamaha DSP-Z11/ RX-Z11 Uber AV amp:

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Their power is something to be envied, their sound quality and finesse is something that needs to be adored. There are limitless possibilities in terms of what you can do with these AV amplifiers.

But their biggest strength lies in the fact that their creators provided huge stress to satisfy those who want to taste the true sound of music be it stereo or multi-channel. For DSP-Z9/ Z11 you just hit a small button in its fascia named Pure Direct, and with an alarming immediacy they transform themselves into a completely different beast altogether.

I have studied and analyzed a lot regarding their pre & power amps designs, Ubers like DSP-Z9 are actually highly Class-A biased before they switch to Class-AB/ B. DSP-Z9 heads the Uber lot in this respect thus acting like a furnace even when idling.

DSP-Z9s Dual Symmetrical Three-level Darlington output stage is something out of the world for any AV amplifier and only designers like Mr Hirochika Maegaki freshly transferred from Yamahas Professional Audio (PA) R&D department and in charge of DSP-Z9s power supply & power amp modules could have the guts to provide this levels of strength to DSP-Z9.

In the end of my auditioning AVC-A1SE matched toe to toe with the ubiquitous US $2500 Musical Fidelity A5 and bettered the Yamaha A-S1000 stereo integrateds while DSP-Z9 was the best and had still some more juice left in terms of better sound staging.

Rishi - I think you are on the right path for choosing an AVR for music. I didn't believe it earlier, but I do now.

Different people have different mindsets, different ideologies to follow and I am not here to educate them. I am just a music lover, and love to listen from any sound source in any format that sounds good to me. I just dont want to be trapped in stereo.

Uber AV amplifiers of DSP-Z9s caliber offers me audiophile level performance at what I would call moderate prices although the owners of doghouse monoblocks costing several thousands of dollars would consider them cheap and worthless, while penny pinchers at the other end of the spectrum would consider them sky high.

I just get amazed by some members who brag so much regarding stereo amps and their superiority over all AV amplifiers in existence in terms of SQ and there purity in design without even knowing what these TOTL AV amps are capable of. Ubers are something these wooly headed audiophiles desperately need to change their perception regarding AV amplifiers.
 
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rishiguru, I see that you are sort of legend out here especially with your thread bare review and analysis of the Yamaha z9 and its comparison with the rest of the receivers in its class!

Are you a professional reviewer? I can understand the amount of dedication and effort you must've put in. Your thread was immensely helpful to me in deciding which avr I need to buy, and truly speaking at around thousand dollars or a little more, these beauties are going to kick the ass of many receivers currently available.

I am very happy with my Z9.
 
My experience with year 2004 Denon AVR-1604 and year 1985 Sony Stereo amplifier TA-AX44 has been that the Sony amplifier beats the Denon AVR completely in SQ and in areas of distortion and sound transparency. The only area where the Denon is better is its higher power output. I have used the analog CD input for the Denon in the direct mode to bypass all AVR settings and have done the comparison for both the setups with my TL BS speakers to draw the conclusion.
 
rishiguru, I see that you are sort of legend out here especially with your thread bare review and analysis of the Yamaha z9 and its comparison with the rest of the receivers in its class!

Thanks bro. :)

Are you a professional reviewer?

Nope. I am just a regular guy.

I can understand the amount of dedication and effort you must've put in.

Thanks for supporting my efforts. :)

Your thread was immensely helpful to me in deciding which avr I need to buy, and truly speaking at around thousand dollars or a little more, these beauties are going to kick the ass of many receivers currently available.

AV amplifier is undoubtedly the centerpiece of home theater capabilities though it is usually thought of simply an audio component that just performs various advanced functions. In fact, these functions demanded of an audiovisual AV amplifier that gets more complex every year. It has to decode the multi-channel audio signals from Blu-ray discs and DVDs as well as digital broadcasts and other sources, properly assign these to multiple surround speakers, and offer video signal processing as well. If one compares the entire home theater to an orchestra with a configuration of various instruments, the AV amplifier is the conductor who brings it all together. In the end the ability of the conductor will greatly affect the musical as well as visual experiences of the listener.

The elite group of engineers whose task it is to design the crme de la crme Top Of The Line (TOTL) AV amplifiers therefore carry quite a responsibility, to design an amplifier by pursuing optimum sound quality which will sound excellent in multi-channel hi-definition audio reproductions, provide real movie theater experience as well as even satisfy the critical analog stereo listeners with formidable stereophonic performance.

Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S [Released : 2003, Price: US $4,500]

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A TOTL AV amplifier from any top AV brand have always been an example of well ordered microcosm and not just a jumble of hardware and circuits executing different functions. For example, unlike a stereo amplifier where the designer have the liberty to optimally place the power-supply, power-amp and pre-amp sections to pursue optimum sound quality, a TOTL AV amplifier designer must combine various elements on an equally high level without sacrificing sound quality.

In recent years with 7.1 channel surround sound becoming a norm, AV engineers now need to design a power-amplifier section which is capable to handle a minimum of seven separate discrete audio channels powered by much bigger power-supply section found in stereo amps. The pre-amplifier of the AV amplifier now needs to handle all these eight channels supporting proper encoding/ decoding of all the latest audio formats along with various digital signal processing and automatic room correction software like YPAO. Finally video up-scaling with proper switching circuits needs to be implemented resulting in separate video processing circuit boards.

Incorporating all these in a casing two times the size of a normal stereo amplifier having ten times more hardware calls for special engineers who have a fine sense in the art of microcosm, while making sure that high standards with regard to sound quality are fully met in TOTL models. And going beyond that, there is the individual character of the product that is to be nurtured and refined. The tasks that the engineers are faced with are on a par with solving a complex simultaneous equation.

Yamaha's Market Dominance

Major Japanese AV manufacturers like Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Onkyo as well as Sony, Marantz, etc provide utmost importance to home market, later looking to international shores. With Yamaha garnering the major share at over 40% in Japan for nearly a decade (1993 to 2003) in all the low, mid and high end AV amplifier segments; it is inevitable their competitors compare each of the Yamahas models with their own offerings to find out what was missing for their side or what makes the Yamaha tick over theirs.

Moreover low to mid segment AV amplifiers are like cash cows; you sell hundreds of thousands of them and collect huge revenue resulting in fat profits. This revenue generated will provide for a healthy running company with much more R&D budgets for better AV amps of future.

Yamaha had some high end TOTL offerings during that time like DSP-A1000, DSP-A2070. DSP-A3090, DSP-A1, DSP-AX1 and DSP-AZ1 released in 1990, 1992, 1995, 1997, 1999 and 2001 respectively. These AV amplifiers did not belong to Uber AV amplifiers category created by Denon while celebrating their 90th anniversary in 2000, followed afterwards by Pioneer and Sony.

Actually there would be those at Denon with AVC-A1SE and perhaps Sony with TA-DA9000ES and even Pioneer with VSA-AX10 who would claim AV amplifiers that sounded much better while costing almost double, boasting more refined amplifier sections and even more feature rich, a common trait of an Uber AV amplifier. Still the TOTL Yamaha DSP models occupied key positions in the AV market and sold like hot cakes due to their excellent price/performance ratio. By common consent, though, each successive Yamaha TOTL flagship models, at least over the last six or seven generations mentioned above, had become the industry benchmark, the one with which others compare themselves.

Sony TA-DA9000ES [Released : 2003, Price: US $4,500]

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The Reluctance From Yamaha

Uber AV amplifier first came into scene with the advent of 21st century, Yamaha being quite reluctant at those times to join this US $4000 plus trend. They saw little sense in this holy war as participated by other AV amplifier manufacturers to continually push the envelope of ludicrousness with each generation of their TOTL product offerings by packing the newer models with more power, more features, more surround modes and most importantly improving the sound quality to a level that it blurred the line between AV amplifiers and AV separates costing twice.

In the 1990s, a $4000 Home Theater AV amplifier was not only unheard of, but probably inconceivable. With the advent of 21st century it became a common practice among the top AV amplifier manufacturers in Japan such as Denon, Pioneer and Sony and with time Marantz & Onkyo joined the show where as price went on climbing to US $7,000 in 2007 when Pioneer released the SC-LX90.

Pioneer SC-LX90 [Released : 2007, Price: US $7,000]

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In the end it's not my point to criticize or devalue these amazing Ubers which ultimately etched their names in gold in the AV amplifier history based on their ludicrous asking price, but to point out a trend which will ultimately lead to Uber High End AV amplifier holy war raging between these manufacturers for the next seven years. However after four years of wait Yamaha finally gave into this trend with their DSP-Z9/ RX-Z9 released in 2004.

I am very happy with my Z9.

In my eyes your Z9 is the best Yamaha AV receiver ever... awe-inspiring design, terrific build quality, astounding performance and expensive. One-off product.

This year on their 125th anniversary Yamaha have selected just TWELVE.yes just 12 products from their hundred years plus audio/ video history which they considered worthy enough to be their crowning jewels in terms of technological feat & achievement. Your Z9 is the only AV amplifier in that list which means you have an elite product.

Yamaha DSP-Z9 + Bower & Wilkins 802

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After a long wait of nearly four years in 2004 Yamaha introduced their revolutionary and long awaited Denon AVC-A1SRA/ Sony TA-DA9000ES/ Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S "Uber" challenger having many of the industries firsts. The model name was Yamaha DSP-Z9 where 9 meant nine channels of amplifications, two more than AVC-A1SRA/ TA-DA9000ES at identical 170 watts @ 8 ohms for the main seven channels and in having two additional 50 watts @ 8 ohms front presence channels at much lower THD levels than Denon/ Sony/ Pioneer was ever able to manage. The VSA-AX10Ai-S had much less power output at 130 Wpc.

The DSP-Z9/ RX-Z9 also happens to be Yamaha's last US $4,500 legacy Uber AV amplifier/ receiver that was primarily devoted to sound quality. With this model Yamaha made a quantum leap in terms of sound quality with respect to its previous DSP-AZ1/ RX-Z1 models. It sported a completely different and more detailed sound signature than its predecessors while the power output was bumped up even higher. Technically too it was designed from a clean slate having nothing in common to its processors. On its year of release it also won the most prestigious and coveted crown of the Best Home Theater High-End Component award by EISA.

DSP-Z9 was termed excellent in sound quality, product quality, genuinely usable feature sets and its unique herculean ability to drive 4 ohm loads on all channels simultaneously under full load conditions partly due to its class leading 1,550VAC toroidal transformer and partly for a power amplifier section with dedicated 16 pairs of power transistors (instead of 9 pairs) for its nine channels.

Yamaha DSP-Z9 + Bower & Wilkins 802

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The DSP-Z9/ RX-Z9 flagship model incorporated a brand new "pure direct" circuit specifically designed for ultimate analog audio sound quality. It implemented superlative/ premium quality Burr Brown DACs which were never before used in AV segment due to cost reasons thus yielding superlative SQ with digital sources. With "HD Cinema DSP" it boasted an impressive live feeling with 9.2 channels. It was also the first receiver in the world to ever support video up-conversion (720p/ 1080i) and in having a GUI display, thus opening up a visual world to make things much easier and in providing never seen before versatility for the advanced/ pro users with almost limitless possibilities for audio/ video calibration and settings.

Right out of Yamaha's stable DSP-Z9/ RX-Z9 weighed 30 kilos and was the true answer to the likes of Denon AVC-A1SRA/ Sony TA-DA9000ES/ Pioneer VSA-AX10Ai-S, finally winning the coveted "Best AV amplifier" crown. The release of DSP-Z9 caused such tremendous effect to its competitors they simply went overboard designing receivers which were rightfully called "Monster Receivers" like US $6,000 Denon AVC-A1XV and US $7,000 Pioneer SC-LX90. Unfortunately even though these monsters were sonically equivalent to DSP-Z9, they were not designed for everyone receiving little commercial success. They remained on the dealers demo room due to their thundering asking price and in having features which regular Joe will never use.

It is said by many that the later HD ready DSP-Z11/ RX-Z11 released in 2007 was more about home theater than stereo/ multi-channel audio performance. The sound signature was completely different to DSP-Z9 having less warmness and being more on the bright side. For home theater use the extra brightness really helps when glass breaks. You are suppose to feel chills down your spine when glass breaks and the DSP-Z11 will help maintain this. Technically too DSP-Z11 had nothing in common to DSP-Z9.

With recession creeping in resulting an end of AV amplifier war, AV manufacturers stopped developing any more new Uber AV amps from 2007 onwards, projecting their complete focus on creating new light weight model lineups having huge flexibility in inputs and acceptance of every possible audio/ video formats known to man.

So be superlatively and deliriously happy in owning the most refined, exotic and the most powerful "Uber" AV amplifier Yamaha ever made aka the zee nine.:)
 
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My experience with year 2004 Denon AVR-1604 and year 1985 Sony Stereo amplifier TA-AX44 has been that the Sony amplifier beats the Denon AVR completely in SQ and in areas of distortion and sound transparency. The only area where the Denon is better is its higher power output. I have used the analog CD input for the Denon in the direct mode to bypass all AVR settings and have done the comparison for both the setups with my TL BS speakers to draw the conclusion.

No doubt about it, the 1993 $40 Sony 909ES amplifier I bought off ebay while in the us pretty much blows away all the present generation AVR's under 2000$ in sound quality. The newer AVR's have a lot more features for modern day formats and what not, but base sound quality is nowhere close. But then again, the ES series of that time was at their peak. I think the difference is that back then avr's were closer to integrated amplifiers and less multichannel receivers.
 
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A tribute to Denon AVC-A1SE (AV amplifier) aka AVR-5800 (AVR)

Link: HomeTheater.com ->The World's First 7.1-Channel A/V Receiver Revisited

Below is the quote from the same article:

Denon AVR-5800
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Denon AVR-5800 AV Receiver. The AVR-5800 may be the most iconic Denon AV receiver of all time. It debuted in 2000 to commemorate Denon's 90th anniversary and was the world's first 7.1 channel receiver, the first with DTS-ES Discrete 6.1, DTS-ES Matrix 6.1, and THX Surround EX (the forerunner of Dolby Digital Surround EX). Before the AVR-5800 arrived AV receivers, including the biggest flagship models, were all strictly 5.1 channel affairs. DTS ES and THX EX were the first six-channel codecs, with a single rear channel, but that surround channel was split to provide two rears and thus the need for 7 channel receivers. The AVR-5800 was a 7 x 170 watt design, and featured an IR and RF touch screen LCD remote, so you didn't have to point the remote towards the receiver to use it!

It was also the first receiver to sport twin Analog Devices SHARC Dual 32-bit Floating Point DSPs, which the AVR-5800 needed for the new DTS and THX codecs number crunching. The older Motorola chips that were commonly used in receivers didn't cut it anymore.

Beyond the specs and numbers it was the AVR-5800's sound quality that elevated the receiver to iconic status. Denon's Chief Engineer Hirofumi Ichikawa postponed the launch of AVR-5800 to devote extra development time to make a substantially better sounding receiver than the AVR-5700. The AVR-5800 not only had a turntable input, it shut down the receiver's digital processors when phono was selected, and the receiver had separate analog bass management circuitry for the analog inputs!

The U.S. retail price was $3,800 ($1,000 more than the AVR-5700), so it was the most expensive receiver on the market, but dealers couldn't get them fast enough, and their original allotments sold out within a few weeks. The AVR-5800 was the best selling mega receiver in the company's long history, and it went on to spawn the AVR-5803 and 5805.

Personal Comments: Having heard the upgraded version of AVR-5800 known as AVR-5803/ AVC-A1SRA, I was astounded by the refinement of its internal amplifier and the levels it can reach in terms of SQ. Will put many 80K+ stereo integrateds to shame.

The AVR-5805 aka AVC-A1XV is something I aspire to audition and own in near future.
 
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yes, but AVR without hdmi doesn't make much sense these days :(

Rightly so. These avrs like z9 or 5800 are only for those who can live with the inconvenience of having two cables running for display as well as sound in this HD era. I for one damn care about HD audio over hdmi. I rather settle over the single seven channel analogue audio out of CA 751BD player connected to my RX-Z9 rather than having one of the current batch of gizmo filled junk receivers. To me now-a-days avrs are more like a fun toy to play with rather than a serious piece of audio kit.

I think it was around 2007, HD receivers became a rage and I was a victim of that flow. After reviewing the new rx-z11 brochure, at first glance it looked like a beast. I preordered the z11 on blind faith because I was completely bowled over with z9 sound quality and in being a fool to think it will be at least be as good as z9.

I ended up selling the z11 after three weeks in order to buy the denon 5308CI and then sold that too after a week. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the z11/ 5308CI are more for tech geeks than audiophiles. The z11 had less inputs, less power, independent graphic equalizer for each channel removed, less Yamaha DSP Programs compared to the z9, no bass management over the multi channel analog inputs, no hifi dsp on the multi channel either. Although they did add HD decoding on z11 which is the only advantage over the Z9. And sadly more tools for compressed music and compressed video.

I never was able to get satisfactory audio performance from either z11 or 5308ci. And both these receivers cost me over five grand each!!! A lot of "cool features" seem kind of worthless to me. I sold both of them and continued with my Z9. I have been using for the last eight years and can say the audio quality is excellent. The level of detailing that the Z9 can dig out of any track is incredible for any avr. It decimated many lovely stereos I owned. The separation of the sound stage is much better than the 5308ci and the z11 sorely miss the detailing part in audio. The sound is warm, detailed and analog.

As far as build quality the Z9 is a tank and never had a problem for the last eight years. Everything works as advertised. Yamaha builds good products. My A-9 bought way back in 1979 still runs. Great stereo. Hopefully they will avoid a mess like z11 in near future.

The other thing about z9 is its power. I have had both the z9 and the Anthem PVA 7 multi channel amp and I think the z9's internal amps were slightly better than the Anthem in some aspects in SQ. So I sold the anthem too.

Although z11 or 5308CI are good avrs, the z9 is a modern classic that has the best amplifier of any receiver made in the last 20 years.
 
yes, but AVR without hdmi doesn't make much sense these days :(

It really depends!

Say, if you have an HDMI capable receiver, and a top end BDP. Now you hook up the BDP with the receiver through HDMI. Now who is processing the data stream? It's the receiver, correct?

Why? Why would you like your AVR with cheaper circuitry to process your data stream over the BDP which is a specialized device for video processing??? Makes no sense to me!

It is far less expensive to upgrade your BDP and much smarter way to stay on the top of latest CODECs and formats than to upgrade your receiver. If you want to use the HDMI feature of the receiver, better make sure your receiver has video circuitry at least better than your source. Otherwise you are using a source with better output to feed a processor with inferior output. In other words, you are wasting the capability of your BDP, besides putting yout AVR on the fast track to upgrade.

Hooking up a BDP (or any other source for that matter) to a receiver over HDMI never made sense to me. I always hook the source to the display directly and use an extra cable to carry digital audio over optical/coaxial to the receiver. It may take an extra cable but the end result is better. Besides, it eliminates the need for me to always have the latest and the greatest AVR.
 
It really depends!

Say, if you have an HDMI capable receiver, and a top end BDP. Now you hook up the BDP with the receiver through HDMI. Now who is processing the data stream? It's the receiver, correct?

Why? Why would you like your AVR with cheaper circuitry to process your data stream over the BDP which is a specialized device for video processing??? Makes no sense to me!

It is far less expensive to upgrade your BDP and much smarter way to stay on the top of latest CODECs and formats than to upgrade your receiver. If you want to use the HDMI feature of the receiver, better make sure your receiver has video circuitry at least better than your source. Otherwise you are using a source with better output to feed a processor with inferior output. In other words, you are wasting the capability of your BDP, besides putting yout AVR on the fast track to upgrade.

Hooking up a BDP (or any other source for that matter) to a receiver over HDMI never made sense to me. I always hook the source to the display directly and use an extra cable to carry digital audio over optical/coaxial to the receiver. It may take an extra cable but the end result is better. Besides, it eliminates the need for me to always have the latest and the greatest AVR.

How can one pass HD Audio over Optical/Coaxial ? Dont we need HDMI to carry HD Audio bandwith?

Do you mean Dolby Digital / DTS will sound better thru Coaxial than Dolby TrueHD / DTS-MA thru HDMI?
 
How can one pass HD Audio over Optical/Coaxial ? Dont we need HDMI to carry HD Audio bandwith?

Do you mean Dolby Digital / DTS will sound better thru Coaxial than Dolby TrueHD / DTS-MA thru HDMI?

(1) How many titles are available in only newest formats? Would you please list them for everyone's benefit?

(2) How many systems in India are so sophisticated that they can benefit from the subtle differences between these tracks? Would you please give us some examples where you heard distinct difference between DTS and DTS MA?

(3) Have you heard the difference between the data passed over Coaxial/TOSLink and HDMI?

If you have, then congratulations, you are among lucky few to have such a high end home theater. And in that case, you must spend mega bucks on AVRs. TOTL AVRs from previous generations is not for you. Spend more and get something new.

If not, you are running after something you can't utilize.


About your question: YES, a high end AVR will most likely sound better even over Coaxial or TOSLink, compared to an average AVR over HDMI. Why? Because it's not only how much data is available for processing, it's also about how that data is handled. What are the chipsets available for processing? What is the rest of the circuitry? It's also about availability of power, clean power. On all these accounts a high-end AVR will trump and middle of the road one. And it can be heard in the sound the produce. Try it and you will see the difference.
 
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It really depends!

Say, if you have an HDMI capable receiver, and a top end BDP. Now you hook up the BDP with the receiver through HDMI. Now who is processing the data stream? It's the receiver, correct?

Why? Why would you like your AVR with cheaper circuitry to process your data stream over the BDP which is a specialized device for video processing??? Makes no sense to me!

It is far less expensive to upgrade your BDP and much smarter way to stay on the top of latest CODECs and formats than to upgrade your receiver.

If the top end bdp is giving 1080p Video output then avr will just use it as is and passthrough if it is a 1080p avr. If it is a 4k upscalar chip in avr and you dislike it better turn upscaling off in avr and that's it. Why sacrifice hd audio for all this?

In my opinion for future codec support it is better to upgrade bdp, I agree onthat but I would then select bdp not to bitstream and send pcm to avr. Best without upgrading even bdp would be to select the lpcm audio track directly which most bds have nowadays
 
(1) How many titles are available in only newest formats? Would you please list them for everyone's benefit?

(2) How many systems in India are so sophisticated that they can benefit from the subtle differences between these tracks? Would you please give us some examples where you heard distinct difference between DTS and DTS MA?

(3) Have you heard the difference between the data passed over Coaxial/TOSLink and HDMI?

If you have, then congratulations, you are among lucky few to have such a high end home theater. And in that case, you must spend mega bucks on AVRs. TOTL AVRs from previous generations is not for you. Spend more and get something new.

If not, you are running after something you can't utilize.


About your question: YES, a high end AVR will most likely sound better even over Coaxial or TOSLink, compared to an average AVR over HDMI. Why? Because it's not only how much data is available for processing, it's also about how that data is handled. What are the chipsets available for processing? What is the rest of the circuitry? It's also about availability of power, clean power. On all these accounts a high-end AVR will trump and middle of the road one. And it can be heard in the sound the produce. Try it and you will see the difference.

Hey Bro !! I am not trying to defend HDMI here...

Almost all Blu Rays these days will have new formats but at the same time they can also send DTS / Dolby. So old TOTL having Coaxial Inputs are good to go.

I am not denying to the fact that old TOTL will sound better than modern AVR's. But everyones not lucky to find old TOTL at rock bottom prices.

There was an Ad of Z11 being sold in Mumbai for Rs.50,000/-. Day I called them it was already sold. Z11 would not sound as gr88 as Z9 but still I would had bought it @ 50k eyes closed. Coz I knew it would still beat modern AVR's at the same price range or even twice the cost.
 
YES, a high end AVR will most likely sound better even over Coaxial or TOSLink, compared to an average AVR over HDMI. Why? Because it's not only how much data is available for processing, it's also about how that data is handled. What are the chipsets available for processing? What is the rest of the circuitry? It's also about availability of power, clean power. On all these accounts a high-end AVR will trump and middle of the road one. And it can be heard in the sound the produce. Try it and you will see the difference.

To the point, precise and informative. Those to learn will learn from here.

Young chaps now-a-days judge avrs from their HD decoding aspects 3d and what not, essentially omitting the most important factor: audio quality supplemented with clean, unadulterated power. What the use in having high resolution HD audio and then pass it through a substandard internal amp of the current generation avrs where to me half of the information is lost.

To me it is much better to stick to a 5800 or a z9 which can truly reproduce almost all the sonic information sent to them via a digital connections like toslink or iLink at a very high level. Current auditioning of yamaha a3010, pioneer sc 68 and marantz sr7005 affirmed my view. I was not even happy with their analog sound. My view stems from the bitter experience with the current generation avrs.

Current avrs are a dying breed of its previous generation. Or may be I am accustomed in hearing a denon 5803 or a Yamaha z9 or a pioneer 59txi and old enough to accept this change in the HD era where avrs are optimized for mp3 listening while accepting HD audio. I do not know.
 
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